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Old 29-01-2007, 1:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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CCTV Help / Advice

Hi All, new to the forums... hope this is in the right place!

Basically, I need a CCTV set up for a domestic property, (my house). Weird things have been happening recently, which need explaining.

I need a discreet camera that can be tucked away - preferably near the roof as I can wire through the loft then. The camera needs to be weather proof, and needs to be day/night. It also needs to have a decent range - as from the roof to the road is probably 20 - 30 metres. I need to see everybody who enters the property in day and night, but the camera can't look ridiculous for 2 reasons, the first being the incidents may never occur again and the person will never get caught (problem solved but we're looking for evidence here), and the second being the uglyness factor. So that's the first issue!

I would probably like to go down the PC Based / Stand alone systems - with DVR for continuous recording, like a month at a time. I have a few questions here. If I go down the PC conversion route, I'd obviously need a large hard drive, but would the constant recording drain the Pc of its day to day use - resources etc? So would it be best to build a dedicated PC for this? Or alternatively, would it be best to get a stand alone unit? I am new to this, and have, well, absolutely no idea how the stand alone unit will work. I'm imagining it to be a basic PC, with a large hard drive - that you can open up files etc on it without transferring to your PC - so you can select things as you please? Am I far wrong here? Also, what size hard drive would be best for around a month of recording?

Can anyone help me with this, as I am pretty stuck, and do not want to be sold something far too complicated for what I need... we're talking 1, or even 2 cameras here...

Any help would be much appreciated!
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Old 01-02-2007, 5:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

Hi Andy,

First off, If you go down the PC route a dedicated PC is always better, i.e less "strain" on the processor as its not running multiple applications and less likely to crash!.
For this I recommend Geovision products which are available to the public.
Better still though is a DVR (Digital Video Recorder), I could go on for ages about different compression techniques etc etc, but for your requirements something like a 4 channel Smart2 DVR would be adequate and once again is available to the public.
Camera wise, again there's a few options for you. Vandal proof Day/Night domes are discreet and can be installed close to the roof. "Bullet" Style Day/Night cameras. The limiting factor in these are the camera lens, most of the above can come with 4-9mm varifocal lenses and to be honest would not suit your 20-30m range for I.D purposes. You can buy "bullet" style camera's with 25mm lenses which would be ok, but another problem is lighting. If there's street lighting available you'd be ok. If your relying on the camera's IR Leds, these style camera's there not great. Imagine a torch beam effect and your something close.
When you say that theses "weird" things might stop if a deterrent is installed but you wouldn't catch the person, you could contact a CCTV company and lease a covert system until you to catch the culprit.
I only usually install commercial CCTV but a friend was once having trouble with an ex breaking his windows I built a covert cam into a plant pot and caught them!.
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Old 02-02-2007, 6:33 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

getting face pics from 20m in the dark, you will be lucky. and if the camera is on the roof the only pic you will get will be there head, unless you specially look up for you! You would be better installing a camera low level hidden in a birds box or something. Stelth.
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Old 02-02-2007, 6:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

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Originally Posted by jo2000 View Post
getting face pics from 20m in the dark, you will be lucky.
Unless you went down the route, of something like a Dennard PTZ with IR illuminator you'd get there face from 100m+ then!, but your talking serious money
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Old 03-02-2007, 9:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

also there is a legal issue?
I think if you are using this for police evidence you also need some kinda warnings on the property...
http://www.cctv-data-protection.info/
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Old 04-02-2007, 4:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

We have cctv camera installed at 2 locations on our house connected up to tv video setup when cameras pick up someone or something!! outside it automatically comes on tv.We also have pir security lighting which work on movement sensor thus illumunating the areas.For the life of me can't remember the make something ....mark..... seems to ring a bell! Must stress live in outlying country area!! so no neighbours to be seen topless sunbathing in there gardens!!!

Last edited by oggy; 04-02-2007 at 4:59 AM. Reason: added
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Old 04-02-2007, 5:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

Alright Andy,

I'm electrician who's been installing top-end CCTV for the past 18 months, on shopping centre's etc..., All though there are some top quality products out it can be shown in the cost.

I have been looking for home CCTV systems at reasonable prices for a couple of month's as it's a route I might be taking. I generally use a company called Norbain who are quite helpfull, if you contact them with your requirements they will be able to give you a option, find them here : http://www.norbain.co.uk/ .

Another company who I think i'll be giving a try on my own property is GET, this external system with pan and tilt functions also has a DVR built in, which use's a SD memory card which you can make up to 1GB, http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV1018DVR.asp , you can view the footage using a card reader either on TV or on your computer. Or they do another system where you would use http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV1018PTBW.asp along side this http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV10DVR.asp so that you would have an image at all times. I think the second option is the one i'll use but should cost a bit more than the first option, I haven't recieved any prices yet from my wholesaler but i'll post when I find out.

You can contact GET direct for more information here http://www.getplc.com/contact/ .

If anyone else has used this let me know what it's like.

Cheers,
Mick.
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Old 04-02-2007, 5:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

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Originally Posted by micktaylor View Post
I generally use a company called Norbain who are quite helpfull, if you contact them with your requirements they will be able to give you a option, find them here : http://www.norbain.co.uk/ .
Norbain will only supply to people who are in the security industry.
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Old 05-02-2007, 6:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

You are indeed correct, Norbain are trade only. With regards to DPA and the use of signs, the latest interpretations of law tend to suggest that domestic and some small commercial applications are exempt from the DPA. Such systems would typically comprise of a small number of static cameras which are recorded for crime prevention with recordings given to the Police. It does however become a little vague when PTZ cameras are installed.
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Old 05-02-2007, 7:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

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Originally Posted by ZippyCat View Post
You are indeed correct, Norbain are trade only. With regards to DPA and the use of signs, the latest interpretations of law tend to suggest that domestic and some small commercial applications are exempt from the DPA. Such systems would typically comprise of a small number of static cameras which are recorded for crime prevention with recordings given to the Police. It does however become a little vague when PTZ cameras are installed.
Fully agree with you ZippyCat.
As I understand it if a domestic property has a PTZ then it falls under the same guidlines as a commercial property.
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Old 06-02-2007, 10:46 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

I am looking at the GET range to distribute them to the domestic trade. As they are now part of Schnieder Electric I have a direct account with them.

Chris
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Old 07-02-2007, 7:00 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

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Originally Posted by micktaylor View Post
Alright Andy,

Another company who I think i'll be giving a try on my own property is GET, this external system with pan and tilt functions also has a DVR built in, which use's a SD memory card which you can make up to 1GB, http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV1018DVR.asp , you can view the footage using a card reader either on TV or on your computer. Or they do another system where you would use http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV1018PTBW.asp along side this http://www.getplc.com/smart/cctv/GCCTV10DVR.asp so that you would have an image at all times. I think the second option is the one i'll use but should cost a bit more than the first option, I haven't recieved any prices yet from my wholesaler but i'll post when I find out.

You can contact GET direct for more information here http://www.getplc.com/contact/ .

If anyone else has used this let me know what it's like.

Cheers,
Mick.
I have the twin GET PT camera set up at my house but without the recorder. Havent had any problems with it and the picture quality is fine for me. The only criticism I have, is that you can only view one, or the other camera, there is no function for time interval autoswitching. The micromark system I used to have did this, but that didnt have pan or tilt.

Rick
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:58 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

By the looks of it the cameras supplied by GET have CMOS image sensors which are vastly inferior to CCD; even on a domestic I couldn’t recommend the use of CMOS cameras, they just don’t cut it. I would be inclined to look elsewhere.
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Old 07-02-2007, 2:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: CCTV Help / Advice

ok lets see if i can help

Technical Stuff

Direction and Lighting
First of all we need to establish entry points.

You need to limit entry points to where your camera will be looking. prefferably 1.
Use bins etc to limit the path/size of entry point that your suspect can take. Get an average sized person between 5ft and 6ft and get them to stand at your entry point, depending on their height angle your camera to compensate between these markers

What direction is your entry point? If it is east or west you WILL have problems with the sun rising/setting
If this is the case you need to find a way to make your camera face north or south and still get your suspect walking towards you.
Unless you are sure they will not turn up when the sun is in view (remember its winter so the sun is low in the sky!)

EDIT: Sorry forgot to add, Turn auto shutter on all the time(switch on back of most cameras) and turn auto iris on aswell if available(feature of the lense). both of these will help compensate for the sun

You will be shooting night and day so you have to take into account of back focus, basically focus the camera at night time or with a filter and you should be ok.

Also, keep your camera down, unless you live in a bungalow a camera on top of the roof will only give you a shot of the top of your suspects head which wont get you far.
In order to secure an evidential facial shot, the face of your suspect needs to take up approximately 2/3rds of the screen though a court/cps may settle for less than this.

If possible have a second camera with a wide angle lense to capture what your suspect does and any distinctive clothing they may be wearing.

Equipment

As we are dealing with night time id suggest a watec camera for your evidential facial shot with probably a fujinon lense (plastic is ok but glass will give you better quality esspecially at night time)
And for your second camera id suggest an LJD wide angle vandle proof dome

Also see legal about placement

I wouldnt recommend a PC based solution as many people are tempted to USE the PC aswell which is a big also it makes it complicated if the police come to recover footage and you dont know how to operate it.

best bet is a DVR with inbuilt cd/dvd burner. dedicated micros is good but a bit expensive

Storage
Because of legal issues you will want to record 24/7 (see Legal below)
You may be tempted to record for as long as possible BUT CHECK THE QUALITY! The longer your recording capacity the more compressed your image will be and less useful. You will want the ability to burn to CD-R/DVD-R *Don’t use RW! (other than VHS this is prefered by most police forces and they may not accept it otherwise)

If you are never away from the house for more than 2 weeks and expect to notice damage within 2 weeks then use that as a bench mark if compression is too high at 30 days, just remember if you are going on holiday for it to cover all the time you are away!

2 cameras you should be ok with a 250gb HDD but it depends on DVR, normally you can upgrade them yourself but beware as some DVR's keep the software on the HDD or are locked to serial number of HDD

***********Legal**************
As you are not a company or authority you do not fall under the DPA. BUT and this is a very big but, you cannot use any recording facilities that monitor peoples actions. Such as stop start recording used with PIR or VMD (video motion detection) and PAN and TILT as this comes under surveillance which you don’t have authority for. Best bet is to leave it recording 24/7

You CAN have your camera seeing adjecent properties but only as long as it is not the focal point of what your camera is looking at (though if you are a tenant then you may be braking your tenancy agreement if your camera looks anywhere other than your property). Try to keep any neighbours property less than 1/3 of whats on your screen and make sure that any windows in the picture are not clear enough to distinguish what is going on in them.

also as you are not a company or authority you CAN position your camera at any height you like

You should aim to let anyone entering your premisis aware that they are being recorded, this will help cover your back, BUT they don’t need to know how many cameras you have. Stick up your dome near on a wall that will allow it to see most of your property (if you make it obvious it is facing one direction the suspect is likely to break something out of view)
As for your evidential camera hide it in a bird box or window behind your netting (it will see through trust me ) but make sure it is held in position and test to see if lighting in the room affects the image at night, the window will turn into a mirror at night unless the curtains are thick or the camera is touching the window.

If you have any questions make sure you ring the information commisioner and they will set you straight. or get in contact with your local police station. DONT ask your local council as they will fob you off with loads of BS

Any questions to me ask here and pm me to get my attention

hope i was helpful, i know it isnt well structured but its free advice from someone in the know
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Last edited by JagoPlasma; 07-02-2007 at 2:14 PM. Reason: Add extra info about equipment
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