[CraigH]

I'm currently trying to decide on a lighting control system for a house extension and some retrofit into existing nearby rooms.

After doing quite a bit of research here and on the web in general, I had pretty much decided on the Lutron GRAFIK Eye as it was only for 6 rooms and I also wanted the capability to operate a projector screen, window blinds, etc at the touch of a button.

I've now been presented with the option of using Clipsal Ulti as an alternative by the AV engineer but am having difficulty finding much information or opinion on it for me to come to an informed decision. At this stage I'm not even sure how it compares cost wise.

Does anyone have experience with either of these and could give me your opinions? One of the issues raised with Lutron was the possibility of buzzing switches due to them dimming. Obviously the GRAFIK eye could be located away in a cupboard but it looks like it's been designed to be made visible.

Any comments or opinions would be appreciated.

[DaveChester]

Originally Posted by CraigH

I'm currently trying to decide on a lighting control system for a house extension and some retrofit into existing nearby rooms.

After doing quite a bit of research here and on the web in general, I had pretty much decided on the Lutron GRAFIK Eye as it was only for 6 rooms and I also wanted the capability to operate a projector screen, window blinds, etc at the touch of a button.

I've now been presented with the option of using Clipsal Ulti as an alternative by the AV engineer but am having difficulty finding much information or opinion on it for me to come to an informed decision. At this stage I'm not even sure how it compares cost wise.

Does anyone have experience with either of these and could give me your opinions? One of the issues raised with Lutron was the possibility of buzzing switches due to them dimming. Obviously the GRAFIK eye could be located away in a cupboard but it looks like it's been designed to be made visible.

Any comments or opinions would be appreciated.

Hi Craig

The Grafik Eye will do 6 channels of lighting - usually these 6 channels are all in one room. I must say that I havent come across the Clipsal range but the Grafik Eye is kind of an entry level lighting system. There are loads of people offering systems which would be better suited for the job you mention - Lutron do Homeworks, Crestron do Greenlight and then there are cheaper alternatives ilight, helvar etc. It depends how much flexibility you want.

It all comes down to budget really. There should be lots of information on the web if you search for mood lighting control system, lutron homeworks or Crestron Greenlight.

P.S.Nothing should unduly buzz in normal operation.

[owain_thomas]

Rako do units which will do what you want, plenty of information on here (and the web in general).

[hornydragon]

Intrigued as to why you want your lighting system to operate the PJ screen (normaly this is done from the HC remote which will also control the lights and blinds. For retro fit to 6 rooms i would normally use Rako. most lighitn system (Graffic eye included require rewiring of the lighting circuits) Rako doesn't so while it may cost a bit more it but it saves on the redecoration costs.

Also how many channels do you want to control in each room? If its just 1 channel in each room there are much cheaper options.

[CraigH]

What I should have said was that the lighting will be accompanied by a multi-room audio system, either Sonos or more probably Nuvo. I guess at the end of the day the PJ screen, blinds, etc will be operated by the HC remote but my understanding after speaking to various people, including a Lutron rep, was that the automation functionality would be provided by the lighting controller. Have I misunderstood?

3 of the rooms are new build (in progress now) and 3 will be retro-fit (they are located right next to the new areas). I can only really see each room needing 2 circuits, one for accent/mood lighting and the other for full lighting.

[dalethecaptain]

If you are going to be using the Grafik Eye QS than there are a number of contact closure options for driving blinds and projectors that are available from the Grafik Eye itself.

However, once you start adding functions to the basic Grafik Eye QS the cost starts to get pretty steep. For a six zone unit driving lights and two blind controls, with an output to a projector lift will be around 1500 quid.

The clipsal system are cheap and functional but very industrial looking, I did not even know they were available in the UK.

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by CraigH

including a Lutron rep, was that the automation functionality would be provided by the lighting controller. Have I misunderstood?

The Lutron rep will only want to sell you Lutron so will tell you that the Lutron lighting controller will need to operate these bits.

If your thinking of Nuvo i suggest you consider a Pronto TSU 9600 and RFX9600 extender for the Automation/control of HC and lighting + music and look at Rako for lighting/blind control this is how i would do it.

Whe you say 2 cicuits do you mean circuits or scenes? one of the bueaties of Rako is the ability to include standard table/floor lamps into the lighting system without needing 5A or 3A lamp circuits installing perfect for retro applications.

You would then be able to automate or remote control the whole system from the pronto handset.

[vex]

Originally Posted by dalethecaptain

The clipsal system are cheap and functional but very industrial looking, I did not even know they were available in the UK.

Clipsal is a manufacturer and their traditional plates are just like any other cheap plastic plates for a reason - to compete on price with MK etc.

BUT Ulti and CBus are completely different, look far nicer than the basic range and I would highly recommend them.

The Clipsal CBus system with their DLT keypads are fantastic as you can customise the title of each button and scroll between page one and two of functions.

HTH

V.

[CraigH]

Thanks guys, I do think the DLT keypads look pretty good and as you say are customisable - they are pretty expensive though! I'm just looking to make sure that if I do spend quite a bit of cash on lighting systems and automation that I make the right choice.

Clipsal have also recently announced that they are going to publish the C-Bus Serial protocols so that could open up better integration opportunities with other systems in the future.

HD, when I say circuits I mean that I would like to have independently switchable lights but didn't think it could be handled by scenes e.g. in the kitchen I would like option to have either full lights, accent lighting or breakfast bar lighting independent of one another. Then with a scene, decide that I want full lights and breakfast bar on at once or just accent lighting (possibly tied to a scene in dining room adjacent while entertaining).

Hope this makes it clearer.

[Liam @ Prog AV]

If you simply want two lighting circuits in a room with a decent dimmer and the option for remote control then use a Lutron Rania switch. You can easily integrate a programmable remote to sned ON/OFF and scene commands.

The Grafikeye does not want to do more than one room. You are buying it for zones within a room (e.g. main spots, wall lights, floor lights, highlights, kit lighting etc) where each circuit will have it's own seperate level of dim for each scene. Having it span multiple rooms would be a royal balls up, if you pressed the command for master dim up you would be raising the lighting in all six of the rooms!!! The Lutron Homeworks system is for a multi-room lighting solution.

However, all that said my honest opinion is that you are going into this arse about face, and the people you are speaking too only have an interest in selling what they want to sell (as shocking as it sounds LOL!). You should take each room in turn, and ask yourself what you want from this room. For example in the master lounge I would like these seperate lighting circuits, and this functionality from a multi-room music system, and I would like to be fed these video signals. This is your requirements analysis. Now with requirements in hand work with your AV and lighting guys and fit the kit to the requirement, not the other way around.

The advice here is mostly sound, an easy setup would be Grafikeye for the main room(s) with RS232 or IP bridge to your control system (Pronto, Netstreams etc). Then the control system will also have trigger outputs for blinds, screens, lifts and will also integrate browsing and playback from the multiroom audio server. For blinds within the room I disagree with the potential pointlessness of having trigger control on the grafikeye simply because there will always be a time when you just want to walk in the room and press the button on the wall to open the curtains without having to navigate a touchpad or wireless controller!

[ZippyCat]

Originally Posted by Liam @ Prog AV

If you simply want two lighting circuits in a room with a decent dimmer and the option for remote control then use a Lutron Rania switch. You can easily integrate a programmable remote to sned ON/OFF and scene commands.

The Grafikeye does not want to do more than one room. You are buying it for zones within a room (e.g. main spots, wall lights, floor lights, highlights, kit lighting etc) where each circuit will have it's own seperate level of dim for each scene. Having it span multiple rooms would be a royal balls up, if you pressed the command for master dim up you would be raising the lighting in all six of the rooms!!! The Lutron Homeworks system is for a multi-room lighting solution.

However, all that said my honest opinion is that you are going into this arse about face, and the people you are speaking too only have an interest in selling what they want to sell (as shocking as it sounds LOL!). You should take each room in turn, and ask yourself what you want from this room. For example in the master lounge I would like these seperate lighting circuits, and this functionality from a multi-room music system, and I would like to be fed these video signals. This is your requirements analysis. Now with requirements in hand work with your AV and lighting guys and fit the kit to the requirement, not the other way around.

The advice here is mostly sound, an easy setup would be Grafikeye for the main room(s) with RS232 or IP bridge to your control system (Pronto, Netstreams etc). Then the control system will also have trigger outputs for blinds, screens, lifts and will also integrate browsing and playback from the multiroom audio server. For blinds within the room I disagree with the potential pointlessness of having trigger control on the grafikeye simply because there will always be a time when you just want to walk in the room and press the button on the wall to open the curtains without having to navigate a touchpad or wireless controller!

Hi Liam,

From my discussions with our Lutron rep, the Grafik Eye and Grafik Eye QS can span across several rooms by utilising several keypads. Keypad 1 can be assigned to scenes 1-4, keypad 2 scenes 5- 8, keypad 3 scenes 9- 12 and keypad 4 scenes 13-16 (if I can recall correctly). You can designate each zone to be responsive only to particular scenes, allowing you to independently control lighting in different rooms.

I’ve not gone into too much depth with the programming options on my QS to see how easy it is to do it, but our rep reassures me it can be done. I think the key thing is to have the unit located out of the way to avoid the use of the master raise and lower; however as this is hidden beneath the lid, it’s probably not too much of an issue anyway, in particular if you use the non-transparent lid taking away some of the temptation!

Having said that, I agree that you are usually better off having a Grafik Eye in a room where there will be several lighting zones, keeping to a simpler solution e.g. Rania in rooms where only one or two zones are required.

[hornydragon]

Lutron keep trying to push the Graphic eye as a multiroom controller but effectively you end up with the equivalent of a rania in smaller rooms and a Graphic hidden in a cupboard. Its OK for open plan living spaces where you will want control over a dining/living/kitchen and is ideal as you can have keypads in different areas but pushing it to control a house or several seperate rooms and it gets messy and complex.

MY comment about the CC was in reference to the use of the Graphic eye to operate a projection a screen which i thought odd... for curtains and blinds its fine does take people a while to stop walking to the curtain to operate them though!!!!

[CraigH]

That was what the Lutron rep was suggesting, have the Grafik eye away in a cupboard and just use basic controls in the rooms.

It looks like I'm going to be going ahead with the Clipsal and Nuvo combo (cabling is now in place) so extending some lighting control and music into the existing house. Might as well do the damage now while the work is going on!

One surprise I did find was that to have electrically operated Velux blinds you must have their Integra units (electric opening/closing). I thought you could just have electric blinds without needing to add about £350 per window to add the control!

Now I need to find an electric black out blind for a door (fire escape for regs) that sits behind the screen. Can anyone suggest any? I'll probably be going for a GrandView Cyber screen from IntoAV.