[Dansin]

Where do I start.....

I'm currently converting a barn and want to distribute audio and video to 3 bedrooms and main living area. I've looked at a few different systems based on wall panels and a central 'server' type system, Opus 500 being the one that seems to tick most of the boxes.

We also intend to have a HTPC with a 2Tb NAS as well as a cat6 network installed throughout the house, which got me thinking.

Could I use the HTPC with Vista Media Center (or even 2 or 3 of them) and the NAS to distribute mp3 music, SKY, radio, dvd's etc. via the cat6 network to each room?

My thoughts were to run to each faceplate:-

4x cat6 cables:- 2 to send A/V to the TV using some sort of HDMI/cat6 converter; 1 to send back remote control signal to HTPC; 1 spare

2x coax cables:- Sky and Freeview

Does this sound feasible? As we are having at least one HTPC anyway I can't see the benefit of spending an extra £4k on the Opus 500 system when I can potentially do it all through the TV's.

Or am I missing something?! Any advice or suggestions greatfully received.

[hornydragon]

YOu need to consider several things.

Simultanoeus sources, do you want TV/music film in more than one room at once?

DO you want to have a PC in every room?

DO you want to trust it all to a micrsoft solution?

How will you control it?

What level of control do you want?

2TB is a lot of storage whats stored there?

All opus does is take line levels distribute them, amplify and give you some sort of control be it basic IR or 2 way with feedback. I have never seen the Opus system as that clever, If you want a cheap system buy a cheap aros hifi for each room. If you want local access to multiple source with reliable control and feedback as well as hassle free use and interface you need to spend more time and probably budget.

Have a look at Sonos and AVAtrix but if accessing PC based media is what you want to do then media streamers or PC's are possible.

[Dansin]

Originally Posted by hornydragon

YOu need to consider several things.

Simultanoeus sources, do you want TV/music film in more than one room at once?

DO you want to have a PC in every room?

DO you want to trust it all to a micrsoft solution?

How will you control it?

What level of control do you want?

2TB is a lot of storage whats stored there?

All opus does is take line levels distribute them, amplify and give you some sort of control be it basic IR or 2 way with feedback. I have never seen the Opus system as that clever, If you want a cheap system buy a cheap aros hifi for each room. If you want local access to multiple source with reliable control and feedback as well as hassle free use and interface you need to spend more time and probably budget.

Have a look at Sonos and AVAtrix but if accessing PC based media is what you want to do then media streamers or PC's are possible.

DO you want to have a PC in every room?

If I go down the PC route I was thinking of installing 4, rack mounted, in a server room, with the displays/LCD TV's in the rooms with remote control back to the PC's

DO you want to trust it all to a micrsoft solution?

I'm not stuck on Microsoft. It's just that to me it looks like Media Center may be able to achieve 80/90% of what I want.

2TB is a lot of storage whats stored there?

I was thinking of storing all of our DVD's, music and pictures on the NAS. This way it would be accessable from all PC's/rooms.

We basically want 4 zones of local access to multiple sources. Music, dvd rips/dvd's, pictures and internet could be accessed and controlled via HTPC's. That leaves SKY and Freeview which I was hoping to do with coax.

We are also installing Dupline lighting which I'm hoping to access via the main HTPC's as well as a touch screen for the main room (10 zones of lighting) and a Pronto remote.

I'm totally new to home automation and whole house A/V and quite bewildered by what's available.

I've have many years experience in IT - hence looking at PC based solutions - but now develop houses and barns for a living. My problem is that THIS barn is for my wife and myself so I can't mess it up.

I had absolutely no budget for any of it before we started the project. I can spend between £8 and £10k on the equipment, excluding the TV's. The Dupline is going to cost around £3.5k so that leaves £6.5k max on the A/V.

I've spoken with 3 different companies who have recommended 3 different solutions (as well as poo-pooing the other solutions!). Do you think what I'm proposing sounds like a workable solution?

Thanks in advance for any advice and suggestions.

[vex]

Originally Posted by Dansin

I had absolutely no budget for any of it before we started the project. I can spend between £8 and £10k on the equipment, excluding the TV's. The Dupline is going to cost around £3.5k so that leaves £6.5k max on the A/V.

I've spoken with 3 different companies who have recommended 3 different solutions (as well as poo-pooing the other solutions!). Do you think what I'm proposing sounds like a workable solution?

If that includes cabling, then no, it is just not going to be possible with that budget.

If it is for hardware only, then just! But I would think very carefully about the wiring design, if done right and although costing a little more, it could be very flexible and allow you to easily up grade in the future.

Personally, stay away from PC's, use dedicated hardware. Have a look at Musica (audio) with Panorama upgrade (Component HD Video) as a starting point.

The wiring structure is a nice open structure and you can upgrade the audio side to DigiLinX later if you want to.

Musica, Panorama and DigiLinX are all Netstreams products but use the CEA2030 standard that calls for a CAT5e and 4 cores of Speaker cable pulled through a keypad location and then on up to Speakers. This is a very flexible standard and will accept the majority of audio distribution systems.

2 Coaxs and 4 CAT6's is a little OTT, but only a little. The majority of systems can carry IR, Power and video signals over a pair of CAT5e's. But IMO you can never have to much CAT5e in a property!

Not heard or see anything about the Dupline stuff, seems a little pricy for 10 Zones, have a look at what Rako, Lutron and Mode could do for you.

v.

[Dansin]

Originally Posted by vex

If that includes cabling, then no, it is just not going to be possible with that budget.

If it is for hardware only, then just! But I would think very carefully about the wiring design, if done right and although costing a little more, it could be very flexible and allow you to easily up grade in the future.

I already have all of the cat6 and coax cabling and will get my guys to run it all so that isn't in the £6.5K. We're about four weeks away from first fix so I really need to decide how and what to install.

Thanks for the advice.

[vex]

Originally Posted by Dansin

I already have all of the cat6 and coax cabling and will get my guys to run it all so that isn't in the £6.5K. We're about four weeks away from first fix so I really need to decide how and what to install.

Thanks for the advice.

Thats good.

Personally look at pulling a CAT5e and 2 pairs of speaker cable from the central location / hub out to a keypad location. There pull a large loop out of about 50 - 100cm then carry on up to the speaker locations. I would then pull a second cat5e from keypad to speaker location and possibly a cat5e from speaker location to a local input plate.

This will give you the best flexablity to allow you to select the actual electronics at a later date.

PM me your email address and I'll email you back a little in-room diagram I have done for a number of the installers I supply.

V.

[Dansin]

Originally Posted by vex

Personally look at pulling a CAT5e and 2 pairs of speaker cable from the central location / hub out to a keypad location. There pull a large loop out of about 50 - 100cm then carry on up to the speaker locations. I would then pull a second cat5e from keypad to speaker location and possibly a cat5e from speaker location to a local input plate.

Thanks for the above. By 'local input plate' do you mean the hub?

Pm'd you my email.

[hornydragon]

Local input plate is an "in room" input so you plug local source into the system (i.e if you have a turntable in thelounge you want to listen just in that room or your kids/guests/family have ipods etc that you dont want cluttering up your music server (or with itunes bought content cant transfer) these local inputs are in addition to the main hub at the central location.

[Dansin]

Originally Posted by hornydragon

Local input plate is an "in room" input so you plug local source into the system (i.e if you have a turntable in thelounge you want to listen just in that room or your kids/guests/family have ipods etc that you dont want cluttering up your music server (or with itunes bought content cant transfer) these local inputs are in addition to the main hub at the central location.

Brilliant. Thank you.

[hornydragon]

YOu also need to think more deeply about the system and get a straight idea of what is needed where (even the pros sometimes miss a crucial cable but they tend to realise this before the walls are sealed up) You can have a system for £6.5k (but you may find what you end up with isnt worth it in the long run) Cat6 and coax is fine for RF TV distribution and PC networking but multiroom AV needs a bit more in terms of specialist cabling and design.

[baldrick]

I'd strongly recommend PC based solutions! At the end of the day everything is moving to digital/IP!

If you run a Windows Media Centre 'server' you can then tap into it using Media Centre Extenders (eg. XBox 360). This gives you full access to all the content on the Media Centre all over the house and you only need to think about running cat 5 + coax for carrying TV/Sat signals.

You can load a Media Centre with 4 Freeview tuners and the Media Centre can record 4 channels or record 2 channels and allow 2 extenders to watch live TV....

Apple are starting to come more to the fore with media sharing. If you embrace the Apple file formats you can utilise Apple TVs to access central stored content.

In my new flat I've got a Mac Mini under the TV in the living room with a dual freeview tuner plugged into the back. This lets me record TV watch back ripped DVD content and access all the music on my Powerbook in my 2nd bedroom/study. With an Apple TV sync'd to the mini I would have access to the TV content recorded in the lounge through a TV in the main bedroom etc...

The only real consideration is speakers.

In my parents' house they have B & W custom install speakers in the ceilings fed by a central power amp and there are a pair of line level cables running back from each room to allow a local source eg. SqueezeBox/Sound Bridge.

Alternatively you could use Sonos, have all the players in a central hub feeding into the power amps and just have a number of remotes in the rooms....

Bottom line is, if all your content is on a computer there a a countless choice of options for playing it back!

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Bottom line is, if all your content is on a computer there a a countless choice of options for playing it back!

And countless things to go wrong, Digilinx is an IP system but ou wont find any of the issues you get with PC's lets face it several netwroked PC's is early 90's tech and you still have all the pit falls of PC's There are also issues with digital storage and DRM so it isnt plain sailing. I and almost ever custom installer i have met has looked at played and decided again PC based systems. They lack the quality refinemnet and control of the dedicated systems. DOnt confuse TCP/IP with PC's

[dj-dulux]

Totally agree with HD here….

It’s important that people spend there money wisely, it’s so easy to get an unworkable mess installed without the proper advice, hence why we all post on here. I think many of these lifestyle magazines give the impression that this type of job can be done with windows PCs and sonos for 20k. And they can IF the customer is willing to DIY and live with the limitations and hassle of re-booting, updating software, using different remotes for different functions, re-programming, learning how it all works, learning how to stop it going wrong, constant updates……. Don’t get me wrong, some people are happy with this and like to learn and see it as a long term project. As an installer giving a service it’s simply not viable for any professional in the industry to work like this and put up with call-outs. Most of our customers are doing it for convenience and to de-clutter their rooms, not as a hobby.

Dupe…

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by hornydragon

And countless things to go wrong, Digilinx is an IP system but ou wont find any of the issues you get with PC's lets face it several netwroked PC's is early 90's tech and you still have all the pit falls of PC's There are also issues with digital storage and DRM so it isnt plain sailing. I and almost ever custom installer i have met has looked at played and decided again PC based systems. They lack the quality refinemnet and control of the dedicated systems. DOnt confuse TCP/IP with PC's

Digilinx looks like an expensive, Windows CE based system which still taps into your existing home network to access your media files so I don't see how it differs too much from:

Sonos - http://www.sonos.com/
SoundBridge - http://www.rokulabs.com/products_soundbridge.php
SqueezeBox - http://www.slimdevices.com/

Get a simple Linux file server with a RAID controller card and a 8 x 750GB SATA 2 HDDs and you can have 3TB mirrored storage that will be as stable as a stable thing on national stable day and you can add and remove media players to your hearts content!

From a video perspective as an example if you have a directory full of VIDEO_TS DVD rips on a server then you simply need to connect a Mac mini to your network, create an 'alias' (link) to your movie folder into the 'Movie' section of OS X and frontrow will automatically list all the films and let you watch them back at the click of a button.

The most important investment you have to make is ensuring that all your media is not in universal formats eg. MP3, VIDEO_TS, H.264 etc...

Personally I buy my music from MP3Sparks.com and download as 256Kbps MP3s, that way I know they will work with everything and I'll have no DRM issues!

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by baldrick

Digilinx looks like an expensive, Windows CE based system which still taps into your existing home network to access your media files so I don't see how it differs too much from:

Sonos - http://www.sonos.com/
SoundBridge - http://www.rokulabs.com/products_soundbridge.php
SqueezeBox - http://www.slimdevices.com/

Totally different system mate, none of those can control legacy sources HVAC, Lighting Control, Door Access or CCTV (to name a few)............. doesnt use your home network (can but doesnt have too) Also none of the other systems can handle HD video distribution Which digilinx can either as IP or analogue over cat5.

[101music]

try Control 4, by far the best system we've come to know over the last year.

[wrockall]

Hi Chaps,

Very interesting thread; currently trying to decide whether DIY with PCs or purpose built applicances is the way forward for me.

Anyone know a decent dealer for the Digilinks stuff in the UK (prefereably in the South / London)?

Cheers

Wil

[baldrick]

Originally Posted by wrockall

Hi Chaps,

Very interesting thread; currently trying to decide whether DIY with PCs or purpose built applicances is the way forward for me.

Anyone know a decent dealer for the Digilinks stuff in the UK (prefereably in the South / London)?

Cheers

Wil

At the end of the day any IP based, shared digital media system requires just that, digital media to share. Once you've got your digital media you can either go down the route of a proprietary system or you can play with all the wonderful toys that are released everyday.

As an example I have a 3 Macs in my flat, 1 x Mac mini under the TV, 2 x laptops (1 x iBook, 1 x PowerBook). All of my music is stored on my PowerBook and iTunes facilitates music sharing so the iBook and the mini can both playback all the music on my PowerBook.

With an Airport Express and a pair of speakers in the bedroom I can playback the music on my PowerBook via the iBook which streams music to the Airport Express.

Similarly the mini has a dual freeview tuner plugged into it so I can use it as a PVR and then either watch stuff back through the mini, via an Apple TV in another room, or drop last nights episode of whatever it is onto an iPod Touch/iPhone to watch on the way to work.

Ok it's not as neat as touchscreen control units in the wall etc... but when I move on it all comes with me and if I want to I can buy a Squeezebox and pair of speakers for the 2nd bedroom and have full access to all my music, plus internet audio services like Pandora and Rhapsody.

My mini will also play back VIDEO_TS DVD rips so I can have all my movies accessible at the click of a button and for the cost of a 2nd mini I can have access to the same in any other room in the house, all it needs is the cat 5 to link it all together.

Most important thing for me though is to ensure that your digital media is in standardised formats and backed up so no matter what you do you can always watch/listen to your stuff.

[Dansin]

Just a quick update on where we're at.

After many, many hours spent testing and deliberating the viability of a PC/Media Center solution we've decided against it. Although I am happy to, and capable of, tinkering and fixing when things go wrong (which is frequently), my wife certainly isn't. Unfortunately at the moment it just isn't a solid enough solution.

We're cabling the barn with a view to install a Netstreams Digilinx system. Although we have yet to find anyone locally who can/is willing to quote for the second fix part of it.

We are also installing a Flexidim lighting solution from JC Lighting. Having spoken with them and discussed our requirements they have been really helpful. They seem a really switched on company who aren't out to sell you as much kit as possible.

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by Dansin

We're cabling the barn with a view to install a Netstreams Digilinx system. Although we have yet to find anyone locally who can/is willing to quote for the second fix part of it.

Where are you? If your looking at digilinx its worth going for one of their supported lighting systems (Rako, Mode, Lutron HomeWorks(mega bucks), Leax, Helvar and Futronix) SO quite alot of choice this allows you to use the same control interface for the lighting system as the AV system cutting down on wall clutter.

Be careful if your cabling without an experienced dealer to guide you.

[vex]

HD - isnt Flexidim one of the products from Mode?

[Dansin]

Originally Posted by hornydragon

Where are you? If your looking at digilinx its worth going for one of their supported lighting systems (Rako, Mode, Lutron HomeWorks(mega bucks), Leax, Helvar and Futronix) SO quite alot of choice this allows you to use the same control interface for the lighting system as the AV system cutting down on wall clutter.

Be careful if your cabling without an experienced dealer to guide you.

We're based just north of Worcester.

We've looked at the Lutron Homeworks and Harmony Dupline but discounted due to cost (Homeworks) and inflexibility (Dupline).

The Flexidim does all that we need including the ability to be controlled through a Pronto remote.

To be honest I'm also sick of trying to compare all of the different systems. I think you just have to get to a point where you make your choice and then stop looking!

I'm not too worried about the wall clutter as it will only be the light switches and the av panels (eventually).

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by vex

HD - isnt Flexidim one of the products from Mode?

Not sure, I honestly dont know Mode very well I think FLexidim is JC Lighting, It has an RS232 option but i dont think their is a streamnet driver (one could be written) it seems to be like RAko without the retrofit advantage and some aspects are fairly basic it does have more presets and a pronto interface written (this is of course only a benefit if you have a pronto and serial extender

[noel-pilot]

Originally Posted by vex

2 Coaxs and 4 CAT6's is a little OTT, but only a little. The majority of systems can carry IR, Power and video signals over a pair of CAT5e's. But IMO you can never have to much CAT5e in a property!

v.

NO NO NO!!! hehe sorry but there is no way that the above is a little OTT!!! Would be worth you looking at automatedhome.co.uk there's an excellent mailing list attached to it for this kind of info with friendly people, when I do my cabling I'll be going for a LOT more cat 5, there's a lot you can do with it, almost anything and when you get it in only then will you realise how many more you want!
So think of what you want and triple it!!

Any companies that you invite for quote will poo poo home brew systems a la media centre etc,

very much depends how much time you can devote to it and spend maintaining etc.

Crestron et al will give you an incredible solution for upwards of £100k.....a pc with a number of xbox 1's running Xbox media centre and suitable network cabling, amps and speakers and tv's will provide similar ability but with more requirement for maintenance by you but also for some people (aka me) more satisfaction also and a LOT cheaper, You could add zones as you want to or budget allows for minimal expense as long as the cabling is there.

Many many options as I guess you're finding but all of them involve a compromise between budget and your time essentially.

It is possible to get high Wife Approval Factor but with reasonable cost.
e.g. I have an ipod touch accessing remote buddy to a mac mini server for whole house audio through airport express units for minimal cost but looks excellent and near enough JUST works. Almost Sonos capabilities but cheap....but there'll be times when it'll have issues etc such is life.

What's right for one isn't right for others, I like to play, learn and tinker with stuff to get the most out of it, but in my mind whatever I tinker with and implement it must also be suitable for other members of the household to just use with minimal hand holding!!

Good luck

Noel

[noel-pilot]

Originally Posted by vex

But IMO you can never have to much CAT5e in a property!


v.

Sorry didn't see that bit! Must learn to read lol, fully agree!

[noel-pilot]

Must also learn to read to the end of the thread first too!
Good to see these kind of posts tho, education for us all!