Do we need 1080P will it be better

[silkyandy x]

Ok, after my weekly visit to my local TV supplier I got into a debate with the sales guy about the beneifts of a 1080 panel for showing Sky HD or sbox set to 1080I etc.. and the future blue ray HDDVD. He reccommends not getting a 1080P panel now cause of the expense (i know surprising for a salesman) and also the PQ on HD and standard broadcasts. He said I wil get a better PQ with a 720p set. He says 1080I is only 540P anyway so will scale better on a 720 set. Any advice would be much appreciated. He also says most Blue ray will be 720p and not 1080p. I do not doubt this guy is very passionate about TV's but my gut instincts is that if 720 is a step up from SD then 1080 will be a step up from 720.

[Orwella]

On anything less that a 50" sceen you will not notice the difference between 720p and 1080p from more that 4 feet away. I find it hard to spot differences between SD and 720p from normal viewing distances.

The salesman saying that 1080i is effectively 540p is talking rubbish. 1080i has 3 times as many horizontal lines than 540(576)p.

[shaithis]

I find it very difficult to tell 720p, 1080i and 1080p apart on a 50" screen from any distance TBH.

They all look fantastic

[DrPepper]

Interesting read http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/reality.html

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Orwella

On anything less that a 50" sceen you will not notice the difference between 720p and 1080p from more that 4 feet away. I find it hard to spot differences between SD and 720p from normal viewing distances.

I guess that's my cue.

For a 50" screen 1080p looks exactly the same as 720p at a distance of roughly 10 feet, assuming the screen is actually 1920x1080 resolution. Hi-def looks exactly the same as standard def somewhere around 15 feet.

The salesman saying that 1080i is effectively 540p is talking rubbish. 1080i has 3 times as many horizontal lines than 540(576)p.

Yeah, that statement was, at best, extremely misleading.

[Stephen Neal]

Originally Posted by Orwella

The salesman saying that 1080i is effectively 540p is talking rubbish. 1080i has 3 times as many horizontal lines than 540(576)p.

Think you're confusing 540p (in the way it is usually referred to) and 576i.

540p is a commonly used reference to cheat and not properly de-interlace 1920x1080/60i. Effectively you treat 1080/60i as 1080/540p (i.e. permanenly Bob de-interlace it) In this case 540p is 1920x540 (effectively the fields are treated as lower res frames). This isn't the same as 720x576/50i (which in some VERY nasty applications - particularly on cheap LCDs and nasty PC DVD players is treated as 720x288/50p)...

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

For a 50" screen 1080p looks exactly the same as 720p at a distance of roughly 10 feet, assuming the screen is actually 1920x1080 resolution. Hi-def looks exactly the same as standard def somewhere around 15 feet.

Doesn't this kinda assume that all are successfully scaled in the same way.

Most, if not just about all, HD broadcasts in the UK look like being 1080i, even for sport. Most TVs, unless people splash out on £1K+ scalers, seem to do a very poor job of converting 1080i to 720p. Also SD can be very effectively converted to 1080i by a STB. Early opinions suggest 720p may not be as good.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me, regardless of viewing distance, if 1080i is the future for broadcast HD and 1080i/p for HiDef DVD then 1080 screens will be the way to go just for artifact avoidance, regardless of the eye's pixel resolution.

Opinions?!

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Jong1

Doesn't this kinda assume that all are successfully scaled in the same way.

Not really. If you're watching from far enough away that the best HD looks exactly like SD, then scaling artefacts may conceivably make it look even worse than SD, but that doesn't alter the basic premise that a small HD display is a waste of money unless you're proposing to sit very close to it.

[Jong1]

But surely a badly scaled and de-interlaced conversion from 1080i to 720p (eg. 1080 lines > 540 > 720) will look worse than a clean 1080i to 1080p conversion even if you can only resolve 720p? And it sounds like this will be fairly common without a scaler, whether done by a STB or the TV.

I understand that when viewing upscaled DVD material there may be nothing to distinguish them at the distances you have very carefully calculated.

[arfster]

Scalers for 720p sets will get better inevitably, as more 1080i source material becomes available.

[Jong1]

You are right, of course. And good scalers are around now if you are prepared to spend a bit.

However, I think it is fair to say that, as of now, the ability to resolve the extra pixels is not the only thing to consider. We also have to deal with the reality that most HD material will be 1080i/p, that most people do not buy additional scalers, and todays' HDTVs and HD STB's look like they can scale available HD material better to 1080p than 720p. And if early reports on the TV Drive are to be believed this may also be true of PAL SD broadcasts.

[StooMonster]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

but that doesn't alter the basic premise that a small HD display is a waste of money unless you're proposing to sit very close to it.

But just knowing they are there, even if unused, is cool. It's like knowing that all the horses in one's engine are ready to gallop, even if it's illegal to led half of them cantor.

StooMonster

[silkyandy x]

Thanks for the posts, but cab we discus the merits of the new 1080P panels about to be released against current much cheaper 720p panels like the gorgeous 40" JVC DS7?

He reakons money better spent on that and then get a 2nd gen 1080p panel at about £1500 next year, total spend will be about the same, I will have 2 sets instead of one and in the first 12 months my viewing will be much better as the DS7 will show standard def and HD much better than any first gen 1080p. Also avoid any first gen bugs etc.. He said SD will look v.poor on 1080p panels.

[StooMonster]

Thanks for you post, how else do you propose we discuss the merits of unreleased and unavailable products? NicolasB makes a fairly fundamental point about limits of human vision.

720p screens will obviously be much cheaper, because they are about to be superceeded by screens with higher resolution, i.e. 1080p ones. Manufacturers need to make new things to stay in business, so there will always be newer, better, strong, faster, things to buy. e.g. take mobile phones, they keep changing, are any of the non-talk & non-text features really that useful?

Personally I've pre-ordered a 1080p 50" plasma, even though NicolasB says I won't be able to see any difference due to resolution at more than 3 metres or so than my current 768p 50" plasma. Still, I've be able to set my external scalers to 1080p output.

Have you considered that your 'local TV supplier' is a salesman and wants to shift stock, especially stock that is about to be outdated? "Oh you don't want next year's model, you want this one I happen to have in my inventory." My aunt recently had similar buying her first plasma "You don't want one of those new 'HD Ready' sets, you want this one I've had in stock (for months) ... it's cheaper" said the local TV shop.

You wanna spent less money, go for it, but I wouldn't (generally) recommend taking advice from someone who is trying to sell you something.

StooMonster

[Jong1]

Originally Posted by silkyandy x

He said SD will look v.poor on 1080p panels.

Until we see the sets it is impossible to say, but what I have heard suggest the opposite may in fact be true, particularly if you are planning on connecting an HD STB from Sky or Telewest.

Personally I have decided to wait the next 9 months out and buy my next gen stuff when the dust has settled on UK HD services and on 1080p sets.