[mato]

Hi,

I'm thinking about setting up my own hifi system consisting of an integrated amp, cd player and speakers (possibly a dacmagic once i have the rest).

I understand there are a lot of options in the way of amps and cd players, but I'm not sure which manufacturers correspond to which types of music.

I will be listening to mainly classical music, so I would like a setup which does orchestral & chamber music the best justice.

I have around £500 to spend - I see lots of second hand Rotels and Denons around in the reigon of £50-£75, whose specs seem to correspond to modern amps of around £250....is second hand the way to go then?

So yes my main question being what manufacturers are best for listening to classical music...

Thanks.

Tom

[timearp]

I don't have any suggestions, however can you provide some more info for people that might?

• Size/shape of room
• Size/type of speakers you'd like
• Wall coverings/furnishings in room
• Anything else you may need (speaker stands/rack/cables/remote control)

The more information that people have the more informed their recomendations can be

[BlueWizard]

Although slightly overstated, I think this idea of matching amps to speakers, or to a particular style of music is a bunch of voodoo.

Although, speakers more than anything can be matched to your personal preference. But there in lies the problem, we can't really know your personal preferences. Yes, we know you like classical, but preference goes beyond style.

I would suggest a speaker with exceptional midrange and crisp but not overbearing highs, which probably means a three way speaker, though not absolutely so.

Now does the £500 you have to spend include amp, speakers, and CD Player, because even used that is a lean budget. Also with used speakers, and to some extent with new equipment, you are limited to what is available in your price range.

So, I think the best you can do it stick with brands you know. Some brands give you excellent value for your money. That is, you get a lot for what you pay. Other brands like Rotel are more about quality than quantity. Denon, I would say, is a good balance between quantity and quality.

I would also suggest you stick with Stereo, though you have probably already grasped that.

Again, in the used market, it is difficult to make recommendations, because there is no way to predict what anything will cost.

I will make some general recommendations though.

You want at least 45 watts per channel of real continuous RMS or FTC power. Using that as a base, from there you can evaluate 'dynamic' power as you wish.

Ideally, you would like to be above 50 watts per channel. If you can find quality amps in the 60w to 75w range, that would be best. But, especially with used, the condition of the amp means a lot. A wrecked 100w amp is not better than a pristine 50w amp.

For speakers, it depends on how serious you are and how much room you have. I will alway recommend floorstanding speakers over bookshelf. But at identical price, the bookshelf is probably going to be a better speaker. So, evaluating which is the best deal is difficult. Still, I favor floorstanding speakers.

Also, I think in your case, I would avoid bass heavy speakers. Usually excess bass will tend to muddy the midrange.

I you can audition them new in a store, check out the Wharfedale Diamond 9.6. Not a small speaker, but they are a well balanced 3.5-way speakers with a 2" dome midrange speakers.

The Monitor Audio, to my understanding, tend to be a crisp speaker with midrange and high emphasis.

I would expect any of the B&W 600, 700, or 800 series to be well balanced speakers.

The only real way to tell with any certainty though is to listen to the speakers with music you are familiar with.

For a CD player, I would say the DACs are the key feature, assuming you are looking at reputable brands and models. A DAC that is capable of handling the Redbook CD standard is a pretty marginal DAC in this day and age. That would be a 16b/44k DAC. Today, people would consider a 16b/96k DAC marginal, and most would prefer a 24b/96k, and ideally would want 24b/192k DACs.

That's usually not a problem, the technology has advanced so far, that almost any newer CD player is going to have the better resolution and better quality DACs (DAC = Digital to Analog Converter).

So, in your case, I would emphasize quality over quantity, assuming you met the minimum quantity standards. Stick with brands you know and trust for the amp and CD player, and audition the speakers extensively.

Also, this forum has its own 'For Sale - Buy, Sell, Trade' section. Likely you can find well cared for quality equipment at fair prices from people you can trust.

Don't know how much that helps...but...there it is.

Steve/bluewizard

[mato]

Wow that is a lot of very useful info - thanks!

Firstly I'll answer the stuff about room size - the room I'm currently in is small/rectangular roughly 11'x8'. Soon I will be going to university, and so it is more than likely that this size will decrease.
Floor standing speakers would be good - if they are bookshelf I don't want them to be massive (space issues).

My budget? Yes it needs to include those three items But it could stretch to £600 if that sees a lot of improvement.

Thanks for the advice,

Tom.

[beerhov]

Some used to say Rotels were good for classical. In my opinion the Rotel (RA-920) amp I had years ago lacked urgency, and I only found that out after upgrading.

You’re in a good position to buy new as you’re looking for a system, so will get a good deal on price. For instance superfi have a NAD/Tannoy package -
NAD C515BEE CD & C315BEE AMP & TANNOY MERCURY F1 CUSTOM SPEAKERS SEPARATES SYSTEM SIZZLER - for £343. That’s one hell of a deal.

Sevenoaks Sound n Vision has a Marantz CD6002, PM6002 and Monitor Audio Bronze BR1 for £550.

The only way for you to know is to let your ears decide, and the best way for this is to arrange a demo. Unfortunately this is not going to be possible for the majority of second had separates, unless your local shop has any. I’d personally book a demo and take some CDs you know well.

If you’re off to Uni you may think about the trade off of such kit with respect to insurance (which is a nightmare in a shared house) against getting something a bit cheaper, such as one of the all in one systems (Denon D-M37DAB) with Monitor Audio Bronze BR1 for £345 from Sevenoaks Sound n Vision. You don’t want to be lugging floor standers back and fore every 10 weeks either…

[BlueWizard]

Well, just a quick look as what is possible in new equipment, consider this -

£244.63 ... Yamaha AX-497 integrated amp w/ 85 watts/channel RMS to 8 ohms.

£150 ... any one of several single play CD players including Sony, Onkyo, Nad, and Yamaha (Yamaha CDX-497 CD player £166.33)

£126.26 ... Wharfedale Diamond 9.1, 5.25" woofer, 50hz low response, 100w

£146.97 ... Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 Limited Edition, 5.25" woofer, 50hz low response, 100w (real wood walnut cabinets)

£190.51 ... Wharfedale Diamond 9.2, 6.5" woofer, 45hz low response, 100w

Now, that is not top quality, but it is good respected consumer audio equipment.

A multi-disc player is probably going to run closer to £200 to £250.

In a sense, this new system can be your starting point. If you can beat it in terms of quantity and quality in used equipment from a source that you can trust, they you will have one very fine system in the end.

If you feel the need to scale back the budget, and again using new equipment as a starting point. The Yamaha's AX397 with 60 watts per channel can be had for £207.

Going the low route with the suggested equipment, we have -

£207 ... Yamaha Amp 60w/ch
£166 ... Yamaha CD
£126 ... Wharf. Diamond 9.1
-------
£499 Total

Taking the high road -

£244 ... Yamaha Amp 85w/ch
£166 ... Yamaha CD
£190 ... Warf. Diamond 9.2
-------
£600 Total

That seems right in your budget range.

Prices from Superfi.co.uk . If you shop around, you might be able to find better prices on the suggested equipment.

Would anyone like to offer their opinion as to the quality and sound of these Yamaha amps?

Steve/bluewizard

[mato]

Thanks again guys, that's lots of help.

Yeah, any Yamaha recommendations/comments would be good.

Where's the best play to book a demo? I live about 30miles from Cambridge where I think they have a SevenOaks - good place?

[scorpion88]

No first hand experience but managed to 'dig up' this review for the 497 from Hi-Fi Choice.

Hope this may help. Cheers

AX497 Hifi Choice Jan 07 Review3.pdf (application/pdf Object)


Edit: Sevenoaks have a good reputation.

[leedswillprevai]

Got a few recommendations for you to be honest, first of all, you don't need a cd player anymore. The days of a cd player producing the best sound possible are gone. Instead you can rip all of your cds to your computer losslessly and connect your computer (if it has a SPDIF connection (optical) to an external via a TOS Link. Alternatively you can connect to the dac via the usb if your computer does not have the mentioned connection.

The two most popular dacs are the beresford MK6/3 MK6/4 which are ideally connected via an optical, or the Beresford TC 7520 which does allow for a usb connection. Alternatively there is the much publicized Dac Magic, I have not heard the latter but the sound quality from the Beresford is just fantastic, in terms of depth, in terms of seperation of the various sounds/instruments and detail.

In terms of speakers, i would have recommended floorstanders but as you are going to be moving elsewhere, likely with less room than you have already, it's best to go with bookshelves. The thing to remember about bookshelves is they are only going to sound at their best on a sturdy pair of speaker stands. I would certainly recommend you demo them first, but the Monitor Audio BR2's have so much grunt, power, presence a very lively sound, with very good bass for smaller speakers and a very convincing soundstage.

As far as amps are concerned, I would look on ebay for either the NAD C352 or the C320 BEE, the first would be my preference but I am mindful of your budget. This is something which never does seem to be accepted but in my opinion you should purchase Chord Carnival Silver Screen cable and get it terminated, (banana plugs). You would be looking at 5.25 per metre for the cable and additional for the terminations, approximately 25.00. This does seem like a lot of money but by all means, you could opt for some cheap QED micro cable which is more like 1.50 per metre.

The advantage of terminating the speakers is that it saves the fiddly process of connecting them to the speaker and amp terminals and in addition, prevents frayed cable and more importantly stabbing yourself with the exposed speaker wire...it happens! lol.

So to clarify, Monitor Audio BR2's which cost 200.00 new or obviously less second hand.
Second hand Beresford MK6/3 (if you have an SPDIF connection or if you have a ps3) probably on ebay approximately 90.00 using this as reference Beresford Media & Electronics
Dac Magic over 200.00
Beresford TC 7520 around the price of the Dac Magic

NAD C320 BEE approximately 100ish second hand or NAD C352 approximately 200.00 ish second hand.
Speaker Stands I used Atacama Nexus 6 which were fillable also

RCA Phono cables to connect from the dac to the amp

The total price will obviously depend if you go for second hand or not and what type of connection your pc will allow.

[mato]

Right, thanks again!

I'm glad you said that about the CD Player actually because I was thinking about opting for a DAC instead.

Basically, my computer doesn't have the SPDIF output and so I would be looking at either the Beresford TC 7520 or Cambridge DACMagic...

Anyone got any preferences for one or the other?

Does anybody else think that a second hand NAD C352 for example is a better way forward than a new amp?

Also how much better is the C352 than the C320?

Thanks.

[leedswillprevai]

Just to point out the C320 is an older version, that was then followed by the C320 BEE.

The C320 BEE is a terrific amp mate and for a first hi fi would be just the ticket. The C352 is the better amp no doubt about it, but to be fair it was almost double the price of the former when it was released. If you would like to know the difference though, it comes in power 50 watts per channel as against 80 watts per channel, greater slam i.e. transients in music are more noticable, deeper bass and does create a large soundstage.

If you like rap rock or dance, the BR2's are easily the better choice, the problem is with some speakers namely Acoustic Energy Evo 1's, The Wharfe's etc, they lack in attack and therefore don't have the lively reproduction of the bass lines which you do get from the BR2's.

Another alternative for speakers (well 2 actually) the Mordaunt Short 902i's and the Mission M72's.

Other amps to also consider Arcam Alpha 8 and 9, (Marantz PM 7200 which by the way is also a fantastically powerful and impressive sounding amp)


Edit - Before I incur the wrath of people that love cd players, they are both very good, head and shoulders above what most people regard as hi fi but for me personally it was a massive leap in music quality from the cd player to the Dac.

[beerhov]

Originally Posted by leedswillprevai

Edit - Before I incur the wrath of people that love cd players, they are both very good, head and shoulders above what most people regard as hi fi but for me personally it was a massive leap in music quality from the cd player to the Dac.

Connect the same DAC to a CD player and it will be better than a PC.

By the time a ripped CD gets to the DAC it will have gone through interference from a) the cd player mechanism b) the laser, the ripping effect on the PC (lots of noise) then read of a drive (more noise) then passed via an electronic signal to light conversion (more noise please), then from light to electronic (noise) before the DAC gets hold of it. Rubbish in = rubbish out, no matter how good the DAC is.

[leedswillprevai]

That's factually incorrect, you are asking a cd player to read in real time, whereas when you rip something into for instance wav, then you are allowing it to read for errors as it's ripping.

That is the first instance the second instance is the electronic interference from a) the cd player mechanism b) the laser. Whereas in the case of a ripped cd, you are playing the hard copy thus less electronic interference.

As for rubbish in, rubbish out, again this is completely and utterly misleading, it can't be rubbish in because i am talking about lossless files! it's a duplicate of the original cd. There is no difference, hence the word lossless, the word isn't semantics it's there for a reason, because the size of any given track on the cd will be exactly the same size as the one ripped.

[scorpion88]

Just a thought, presumably the PC would have to be switched on every time one wished to play music. I guess then I could use my Oppo DVD Player as back up for more spontaneous sessions.

[BlueWizard]

If you are looking specifically at NAD, here are a couple of C325BEE's at bargain prices new. The first is £247 and the second is £199 -

NAD C325bee Amplifier from Hi-Fi Suppliers - Bringing you great savings on Hi-Fi, Home-Cinema, Loudspeakers and much more the the Hi-Fi world


Play.com (UK) : NAD C325BEE Stereo Integrated Amplifier (Titanium) : Electronics - Free Delivery

That is within your budget for new equipment.

If you are looking at used equipment, you should be looking at these models -

NAD C326BEE 50w/ch = new price £324

NAD C355BEE 80w/ch = new price £352

NAD C720 AM/FM 50w/ch = new price £371

You should be able to find these used in your price range.

Just passing it along.

Steve/bluewizard

[leedswillprevai]

Steve the NAD C355 and NAD C352 are almost identical sound wise and as the NAD C355 has only been out a very short time, the OP is going to be hard pressed to find this under 270.00 let alone around 200.00

[leedswillprevai]

Also the NAD C326 BEE is even newer, the OP isn't going to get a price much different to it's retail price.

[scorpion88]

The Yamaha AX-497 @ £244.63 as originally suggested 85w/8ohm would still be worth considering. It is certainly competitive at this level.

Leeds I believe the OP should have an open mind going forward particularly regarding the CD Player versus PC/DAC combination and should demo/sample both options before finally deciding. Good advice is one thing, influence is another.

I also do not believe cables or stands should be at the forefront of thinking at this early stage.

Just my thoughts having read all of the thread thus far.

[leedswillprevai]

I think I was recommending, rather than saying you must have a dac! . However as I have also made clear seperates cd players are musically a massive lift from what most people think of as hi fi. Therefore yes I agree, the choice is yours, I am sure with either you will be very pleased.

Also I have just noticed you said you were interested in classical music, let me add one more to the list of mentioned speakers and in order of my personal preference for that type of music that is.

Monitor Audio BR2
MS 902i
Wharfedale 9.1
Mission M72

[scorpion88]

OK, just did not want to present a 'fait accompli' to the OP. Not suggesting one system is better although personally I would not want to rely on my computer for music for all sorts of reasons. In the same way that some people still prefer vinyl I feel more 'comfortable' with physical CDs particularly as I have recently bought the 'Oppo'.

Call me old fashioned if you like

No problem with the speakers - I own a set 902s myself.

Cheers

[mato]

Thanks again.

There's so much choice! xD

[mato]

I'm not entirely sure what all the DAC figures are about like 24/96...

The music I *have* on my PC is a mixture of 192 and 320 bit-rate. Would playing these through USB to the DAC see a significant improvement.

Also, how can I rip a cd losslessly?

[leedswillprevai]

Hi Mato, yes, any bitrate will be improved but obviously the lower the bit rate the flatter the sound.
You rip cds losslessly many ways but the best one I have found is download express rip and then when you put the cd into the draw it will ask (if you have a firewall) to allow musicbrainz to search for info, when you do that, it usually returns the artist and track titles.

You choose an output folder i.e. where you will rip to, then you choose an output format i choose wav, wav being one of the lossless formats, then to the right of that you choose the encoder settings: set PCM uncompressed from the first drop drop down and the second drop down box titled attributes, select 44100 hz 16 bit stereo then press ok and then choose the option on the right called rip cd

[mato]

Thanks:

This is looking very tempting haha:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/home-...-speakers.html

[leedswillprevai]

If you are looking at playing cds on a dedicated cd player, then yes definitely. However bear in mind a few things, unless you can personally get there, the courier charge will be at least 60.00.

[mato]

Getting there isn't too much of an issue however I've pretty much decided on not getting a CD player and buying a DAC instead.

[leedswillprevai]

In that case see how much you can cherry pick the rest of his system for

Also of course, it means he won't mind you demoing the hi fi first