[lil old me]

Hi guys,

Thread title says it really. Im looking for an integrated 2 channel amp to power my acoustic energy evo 3B speakers. I currently use a DVD player as a transport or listen to Flacs from my PC via coax to a beresford DAC which feeds into an Onkyo 606 but I cant help but feel im missing out on alot music wise.

I realise the need to demo but I don't know where to start at all, so in the £500-£800 range what can you recommend?

Thanks

[GW43]

For that sort of money, especially if you buy ex-demo or 2nd hand (usually a safer bet with amps) means you should be able to get a lot for your money.

As for brands - everyone will have their particular favourite.

However, you can (usually) never have too much power!

[lil old me]

Thanks GW, still dont really have any idea what I should be looking for though, and second hand just multiplies the amount of options! I have a Rotel RA01 with B&W 601s at the moment and it has served me well. Would a more expensive rotel suit? RA06 or go separates with an RC06 + power amp?

One thing which I would like to improve on is listening at lower volumes. The speakers really seem to lack detail and vibrancy at lower levels and the amp really needs to be cranked up to see any benefit. Are there any amps which might particularly solve or lessen this problem?

[BlueWizard]

I've had a growing fascination with Cambridge Audio amps lately. Partly because they were on sale recently for dirt cheap, and I kicked myself for not being able to buy one.

Consider this amp for £549 -

Cambridge Audio Azure 740A (black or silver)
100 watts per channel, RMS, 8 ohms
30 day risk free satisfaction guarantee

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO AZUR-740A-BLK at Richer Sounds -

No phone input, but a phono pre-amp can be had for a fair price.

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 640P-SIL at Richer Sounds -

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 540P-SIL at Richer Sounds -

There are plenty of amps in the price range you suggest, it is just a matter of finding the one with the power and features you want. I suspect any known brand in this price range is going to be a good amp.

Steve/bluewizard

[GW43]

Originally Posted by lil old me

Thanks GW, still dont really have any idea what I should be looking for though, and second hand just multiplies the amount of options! I have a Rotel RA01 with B&W 601s at the moment and it has served me well. Would a more expensive rotel suit? RA06 or go separates with an RC06 + power amp?

One thing which I would like to improve on is listening at lower volumes. The speakers really seem to lack detail and vibrancy at lower levels and the amp really needs to be cranked up to see any benefit. Are there any amps which might particularly solve or lessen this problem?

This sounds more like a problem with the speakers rather than the amp. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I didn't like those B&W speakers some years ago when I demoed the 601s against Monitor Audio Silver S1 - the MAs were so much more detailed.

Anyway, I thought you said you had Acoustic Energy speakers?

The Rotel should be a decent amp, your problem is more likely to be your speakers or your room acoustics. If these are "wrong", no amp will put them right.

Try speaker positioning first of all - there's lots of info around on what to do and how. Try putting your speakers on sheets of mdf on top of your carpet instead of spiking them through to the floor - if you have wooden floors that is.

Experimentation can save you a lot of money. It might just get you certified by your other half, but that's another story!

[BlueWizard]

Just so we are all on common ground, are these the speakers you have?


DISCONTINUED ACOUSTIC ENERGY AEGIS EVO 3B HOME CINEMA SPEAKER PACKAGE - Superfi UK

These are not exceptionally expensive speakers, about a £1000 for the set. But the specs look very impressive.

The front speakers should have no problem standing alone as stereo speakers. Even the rear speaker have impressive specs and should make a great pair of stereo speakers.

But it is not clear what you have or what you are trying to do. You say you have a Rotel and B&W 601s, is that the system your are replacing, or is this a separate system?

Do you actually have the Acoustic Energy EVO 3B, or were you planning to buy them? If you have them, what are you driving them with.

Are you looking for a stereo amp or an AV amp?

The better we understand what you have, what you are doing, what you want to do, and what is happening that you don't like, the better we can understand your problem and help.

If this is a completely different system from the Rotel system you describe, then let's keep our focus on this system.

What do you have now? How are you using it, and what don't you like?

As far as amp in general, we are alway trying to balance quantity with quality. Rotel and similar amps will give you more quality, but less quantity for the same price. There is a Pioneer amp in this price range that is only about 50 watts. We could assume that is because the quality of components is extremely high.

Exactly where that balance is, is something that only you can decide.

As to the sound, if you want to hear well at low volumes, you need very big very efficient speakers, or you need to be very close to the speakers.

Though in all fairness, the AE EVO 3B don't fall far from that description. They are relatively large and have a relatively high sensitivity.

Again, give us more details presented in an orderly fashion, and we can probably do a better job of helping.

Steve/bluewizard

[lil old me]

Sorry, should have been more clear, thank you for your replies thus far though.

The system I am trying to improve is the Home cinema package, which is in my lounge, listed above. The evo 3B from superfi. My current amp is an onkyo 606 being fed from a pc with flacs via s/pdif to a beresford dac. The speakers are biwired from the amp which did improve the sound but I'm sure this can be improved (see below). Both speakers are on metal spikes into the carpet, are about 7ft apart and I sit about 7ft away from them.

The rotel/b&w setup is completely separate and in my bedroom. I was merely using that to say I had used rotel amps in the past and had got on well with them.

However the system I am trying to upgrade is the evo 3b system. I want a new amp for STEREO duties only. The onkyo 606 will remain for home cinema but I want more out of my music when I listen to it in my lounge. There is no option to use the amp with the onkyo unfortunately as I stupidly didnt realise it doesnt have pre outs so the two systems will remain separate. Should be better for music anyway from what ive read.

As for what im missing out on, well ive only had 3 amps before, the rotel, this onkyo and a pioneer vsx d912 which, as far as i can make out from reading about, all lie in about the same range for stereo listening. So i guess I want more clarity of sound, not necessarily more volume (unfriendly neighbours). Perhaps more definition in the mid range which seems to be lacking. Bass is excellent as far as i can make out.

Any more questions about my setup feel free to ask. I set it all up so i know what is there but I'm just not that good at explaining things.

[GW43]

If I've read this correctly, you want to add a second amp to drive your front speakers only?

I believe this is a bit of a no-no, other than through the pre-amp outs, which you say you don't have. You shouldn't have two amps connected to a single set of speakers, except through a dedicated switch, which may degrade quality.

[BlueWizard]

GW43 is right, if you don't have pre-amp outputs, then you need some type of switch box to switch different amps to your speakers. I don't have any recommendations for switch boxes, but the subject has come up several times before in the 'Speakers' forum. You might try to search there.

I'm very strongly for separate dedicated systems. If I was in your place, I would try to find some EVO-3B series rear speakers, which have excellent specs, and put those in place of the front tower speakers. Then move the tower speakers to a dedicated Stereo amp.

You can still share peripherals between the amps by simply patching them together connect the tape out of the 606 to the tape in of the new stereo amp, and you should be able to use your DVD player as a CD player for the stereo amp, etc....

Though since those speakers are discontinued, I'm not really sure how hard it will be to find the rear speakers.

So, it is either a switch box allowing two sources to be connected to one set of speakers, or two completely dedicated systems.

Or, at least, that's how I see it.

Steve/bluewizard

[lil old me]

Hmm thats annoying. I dont really have the space to move the floorstanders elsewhere or even to have another set of bookshelf speakers next to them, plus I think it would look somewhat strange. So I guess the only option would be this switching box?

Alternatively am I right in thinking the only problem with having two amps to the same set of speakers is that both might be on at once and would blow the speakers? In this case I'd need some sort of relay which will only allow one amp to be on at a time?

[BlueWizard]

Again, if you search the 'Speakers' forum for switch boxes, you should come up with several threads addressing your specific need. Believe it or not, this really subject does come up often, at least one a month.

I don't recall the switch boxes being especially expensive either.

The boxes are what are sometime called 'A/B boxes', meaning you can select source 'A' or source 'B', but not both. Selecting 'A' automatically disconnect 'B', etc....

The danger to applying more than one amp to a speaker, is not the danger to the speakers but to the amps. Amps do have protection circuits, that should save them, but in an odd arrangement like this, that can't alway be predicted.

If you can't go with completely separate systems, the switch box that switches two power sources to a single set of speakers, is probably what you need.

Just make sure you get a box that switches two source, and not a standard speaker switch, which assume a single power source and two pair of speakers.

Steve/bluewizard

[Crocodile]

Another way to do it would be to sell the Onkyo in favour of something that does have pre outs or if only for occasional use, something like the old Yamaha DSP-E800 (readily available around the £70 mark). That way you have a dedicated stereo amp directly driving your fronts & the processor driving centre & rears.

Only real down side to this is matching volume levels, unless the stereo amp has a fixed gain processor mode. Otherwise you just need to set an easily remembered reference point for the stereo's volume control & set matching levels via the processor.

This is what I'm intending to do so maybe seek out opinions of those that have actually done it!

[lil old me]

Thanks for your responses guys.

Ill have to mull over whether I sell the onkyo or not, so annoying that it doesnt have pre outs. I really should have thought of that when I bought it. Only got it just before xmas, but maybe with the price increase I can break nearly even at what I bought it for.

I think getting a new amp would be a better idea than this AB switch idea. Its just adding another chain in the link and I'm worried itll mean sacrificing the benefits of a more expensive amp.

So with that decided back to my original question? Stereo amp for 500-800? Or a completely different route....would it be more beneficial to pool the sold av amp funds + the money saved for the stereo amp and get a ~£1000 av amp?

[Crocodile]

Looks like we're broadly trying to achieve the same sort of thing. That's why the Yamaha in my sig is up for sale!

All I can offer is what I've learnt through research these past weeks. Logic dictates that cramming 7 channels of amplification into a box together with DACS, processors & maybe even a tuner isn't going to yield as good a result as a dedicated stereo amp at a similar price. The problem seems to be that whereas some AV amps (Arcam in particular) are rated highly for their stereo performance by reviewers, this is always only relative to other AV amps. You get statements like "as musical as they come" which actually seems to mean bugger all. As I suggested to them, they may as well be commenting on the amp's ability to fly! There is never any direct correlation with a stereo amp benchmark. I've even tried asking the reviewers of What HiFi on their forum but they seem strangely reluctant to answer.

The conclusion I have come to is that if your priority is stereo, then there probably is no substitute for a dedicated amp. If you only want acceptable performance then an Arcam may be the way to go. The only proof of any of this though will be the old chestnut of how does it sound to you!

[lil old me]

Thanks crododile, that is the conclusion im rapidly coming to myself!

To me the best solution seems to be:

AV amp to do what it does best > centre + rears +sub

Pre-outs > stereo amp (as a power amp) > front speakers.

Cd player/DAC > stereo amp (as integrated amp) > front speakers

This way both systems are separate for music, using the superior pre stage of the integrated for music but keeping its power stage in use for movies via the pre outs. Only issue is remembering to reset the volume on the stereo amp when moving between movies and music but this should be easy enough to remember/set at the right level once its all setup and tested properly.

[CJROSS]

Stereo amplifiers with Pre-ins (AV Pre-out use for fronts for better stereo)

Should be sorted now old chap.

Worth reading this with regards to Integrateds that can act as power amps from an AV pre-outs on fronts.

[lil old me]

Thanks for the link Cjross but it doesnt seem to be working for me. Could you post it again please?