Sound Improvement Disc

[DarthTedious]

Originally Posted by karkus30

it really is not scientific in the accepted sense of the word

In what sense of the word is it scientific then, I wonder?

"characteristics other than data errors have important consequences for audio" [dingwall]

We're talking about a digital encoding of music. Either you can read the bits, or you can't. There are no other "characterstics", no mysterious qualities of how the information is read. You can't read the same information well or badly. Either the signal is perfect, or it has data errors.

Of course, what you do with the signal once it's read off the disc and into the memory buffer (with or without errors), that's another matter entirely...

And it is of course true that we can "perceive" sound as being better or worse even when there is no physical difference. We can perceive all sorts of things that aren't there. Fine, if it makes us happy. However, selling snake oil at great cost, for profit, promising these "improvements", which people are then compelled to "perceive" are actually there (it's either that or admit you've been conned), is morally dubious.

Of course, my modest 15-year old Technics HiFi is not exactly state of the art, my speaker cable is cheap and nasty, and my speakers are ON THE FLOOR as there's currently nowhere else to put them and I have no stands... so maybe I'm not really qualified to contribute

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious

In what sense of the word is it scientific then, I wonder?



And it is of course true that we can "perceive" sound as being better or worse even when there is no physical difference. We can perceive all sorts of things that aren't there. Fine, if it makes us happy. However, selling snake oil at great cost, for profit, promising these "improvements", which people are then compelled to "perceive" are actually there (it's either that or admit you've been conned), is morally dubious.

There are many senses in which scientific is and I would suggest you pump that into Wikipedia. Science is not technology, unquantifiable effects cannot be discarded just because they appear irrelvant. Read about quantum physics and none constant gravity. Explain sanity for instance.

'Fine if it makes us happy' is exactly the point of my post. Religion has been selling intangibles ever since man first appeared on the Earth, that did not stop it being relevant to scientists even if it is unquantifiable in terms of value.........in other words religion is snake oil ! Your belief that your hifi is any worse than anyone elses is snake oil. The thing is, when you really get down to it.......try proving anything exists

[ryart]

Originally Posted by Davieboy00

Would be a short listening session
Sorry couldn't resist

I can't swim; is this something I should avoid trying?

Sorry about that. Thanks Karkus for the interesting points you made in post #14, fascinating stuff and I think we have to keep such ideas in mind, along with the more scientific notions, to keep a balanced view.

IMO it sounds rather unlikely that a SID would make much difference, but I haven't actually tried one so my opinion is worthless. In the end the most important thing is the music, and if whatever we do to our hifi increases our enjoyment of the music then the whys and wherefores aren't that important, assuming we can afford it of course.

[DarthTedious]

Originally Posted by ryart

I think we have to keep such ideas in mind, along with the more scientific notions, to keep a balanced view.

sorry to be pedantic but I have trouble with the suggestion that there are scientifc notions and non-scientific notions that might somehow be "balanced", being of equal relevance.

non-scientific = not true, made-up, imaginary, BS.

If something works and makes a difference to the sound, there will be a scientific explanation, even if we don't know what it is. If something makes no difference to the sound but we believe it does anyway, then there is still a scientific explanation - but one that will lie in the realms of psychology / neuroscience, rather than electronics, acoustics, etc.

So let's not have a "balanced view" of the scientific and non-scientific, thanks very much.

[ryart]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious

So let's not have a "balanced view" of the scientific and non-scientific, thanks very much.

Its called keeping an open mind, having an interest in others views (even if one doesn't agree with them), exchanging ideas and concepts, thinking about other peoples ideas and being willing to challenge ones own prejudices and preconceptions.

If you don't want to balance different views why bother reading a forum, let alone contribute to it?

[DarthTedious]

Sorry, you misunderstood. I do think people should discuss their views, and be balanced in doing so.

I just don't think people should accept the "there's no rational explanation for it, but I'm happy to believe in it anyway" or the "it's all subjective so not worth thinking about properly" line. If someone is selling a gadget for £XXX that they make certain claims for, they should be able to provide a good explanation for why it does what it's supposed to do. There are people out there trying to rip people off, and just to say "well let them charge people loads of money for a product that does nothing based on nebulous claims, if it makes the buyer happy" is just a bit lazy, and means people will just continue to get ripped off.

I'm happy to keep an open mind for anything, as long as there's a rational explanation for it. In fact I'm really interested to know why certain things (gold fuses?) have the impact on sound that some people say they have - but very often the explanations offered are just not very convincing.

[ryart]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious

Sorry, you misunderstood.

Obviously my fault in misunderstanding you, rather than you not making yourself clear .

A conditional open mind is something of a contradiction in terms in my book .

Apologies to everyone else for having gone off topic

[karkus30]

It's not really the right place to get into this, but we might as well explore the concept of real and imaginary.

OK, so, when you see a dog sniffing at a piece of clothing which allows it to track a person. Do you think that's imaginary ??

No, because you see the proof for yourself. The dog can track the person down. Now, we have to assume the Dog can sense something that we are unable to sense. We can of course take some pretty educated guesses as to how this can happen, by comparing our own anatomy to the dogs and by scanning brain activity.

What we are unable to do is to live in the Dogs world. We cant experience what the Dog experiences. It lives in a world which is alien to us although it obeys some of our basic rules, it does not obey them all.

So, what does a Dogs perception feel like. Does it smell in colours, maybe as images, sounds or even feelings. So although you can predict and partially understand the result, you cannot experience the Dogs world, which is most likely very, very different to ours.

So, your perception of the world is one thing, the Dogs is another. Which one is correct ???

The same can be applied, person to person. We are not clones or robots. We are distinct and individual. So how do you know what another persons world is like ?? The short answer is that they work in a similar ways to you, but for all intents and purposes you cannot experience it as identical. Infact you can guarantee it isnt otherwise we would all like the same things.

Back to HIFi and subjective measurements. Well, these days we can use complex analysis to measure masses of data from amplifiers and speakers. We can get a dead flat frequency reponse from a system with relative ease. But the thing is, take any two people into a room and let them listen. There is an equal chance that one will dislike it, the other will love it. Thats because everyones perception is different. Even your mood can affect the way you hear music......try it next time you feel sad or happy.........see how you dislike listening to some things that would normally be very pleasing.

These days it isnt just an open mind you need. We have already passed that point of no return. Quantum physics and the Butterfly effect have seen to that.

Consider that you are sat there on a ball of rock, surrounded by freezing vaccum, Black holes, vast distances that measure infinity and Stars that are being born and die in incalcuable numbers, being held by a force you can neither feel, touch, see, hear, smell or taste. That you are unable to experience another persons perception never mind a Dogs.

Can you really say with total conviction that you can prove anything 100%
You can only advise by your own experiences. These may or may not be relevant to other people. It may give them the confidence that an expert is giving them great advice which might mean that therir listening experience is a happy one.

If being tickled makes you happy, then get someone to tickle you and pay them well. There are no scientific proofs that can positively identify why one person enjoys it while the next dislikes it.

[trailer]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Test-Burn-CD-GOLD/dp/B0000015AL I have one of these which is always useful for setting up a system.

[Derek S-H]

This is probably massively off topic, but I'll say it anyway.

We are a species that seems to be obsessed with numbers. We also seem to think that there is such a thing as objectivity, evidence and proof, even though the methodology used to establish these parameters is subjective.

Targets and efficiency are now some sort of mantra for things that are good and that work for us. It seems it no longer matters about the quality of an experience but the quantity, and it must be measurable and explainable otherwise it cannot be justified.

If someone wants to spend their money on something that they think might work for them, then fine. Yes, they are probably being exploited, but we all are to some degree. How much is anything truly worth? Does anything have any intrinsic value beyond what we are prepared to pay for it?

Personally, I like a bit of mystery in life. I don't want to and don't claim to understand everything. And I certainly don't fear subjectivity as I believe that it all comes down to perception in the end.

Derek

[karkus30]

I think thats as far as we can realistically take this topic. Those that need a robust technical answer are unlikely to change their minds and quite frankly I wouldn't want them to. It just might blur the edges of a tricky subject.

[Cable Monkey]

Thing is the subject isn't remotely tricky. You try it, it works or it doesn't. The reasons it may be perceived to be working are irrelevant. It is about convincing someone to part with their cash and whether the basis is scientific or snake oil, the end result is the same. Satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the product, sale or no sale. What I tend to find is the more strongly we feel about these subjects the more passionately we defend our points of view, and the less likely we ever are to change. It still doesn't change the statement in the second sentence of this post. You try it......

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Cable Monkey

Thing is the subject isn't remotely tricky. You try it, it works or it doesn't. The reasons it may be perceived to be working are irrelevant. It is about convincing someone to part with their cash and whether the basis is scientific or snake oil, the end result is the same. Satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the product, sale or no sale. What I tend to find is the more strongly we feel about these subjects the more passionately we defend our points of view, and the less likely we ever are to change. It still doesn't change the statement in the second sentence of this post. You try it......

Thats my take on it. Then again we might all be right.

[Davieboy00]

Thanks for all the input guys - thought a tweak of this nature may be hotly debated.
My dealer has offered to lend me a SID to try out - I will report back.
Mind you , probably no matter what I report , I will probably be accused of either fooling myself that there is an improvement or if I don't notice one that negative comments here have made me not want to appear foolish
FWIW of the 2 guys who work in my dealer - 1 reckons there is a noticeable difference , the other reckons there is no improvement
Will report back later today if I get a chance.
Cheers.
David

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by Davieboy00

Thanks for all the input guys - thought a tweak of this nature may be hotly debated.
My dealer has offered to lend me a SID to try out - I will report back.
Mind you , probably no matter what I report , I will probably be accused of either fooling myself that there is an improvement or if I don't notice one that negative comments here have made me not want to appear foolish
FWIW of the 2 guys who work in my dealer - 1 reckons there is a noticeable difference , the other reckons there is no improvement
Will report back later today if I get a chance.
Cheers.
David

Its funny, but this thread mirrors another thread I have been reading recently. Again, it's another subjective product. This time working on your mind in the form of meditation. So the idea is that you change the perceptual apparatus and not the technological one.

Anyway the thread was about a product called Holosync and you can experience a demo disc free of charge, no costs, just fill in an online form. We should all give it a go, it would be a right laugh. See if we can change how we listen to music.

Anyway, my freebee is on it's way.