Relative lack of turntable bass (ProJect X-pack)

[proux]

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...roduct_ID/2604

I have owned this beautiful turntable for a year, but after upgrading the rest of my system I find it relatively lacking in bass and general "ooomph" (getting technical!) on rock and dance music compare to my CD player. It is sublime with jazz and classical.

The rest of the stuff: Arcam FMJ CD33 player, A32 amp / P25 power amp (biamping), Proac Tritower speakers. The amp has a phono stage. Cables used: Chord Chorus, Crystal Cables Piccolo. Sits on the top of a 4-shelf Atacama Equinox. Fully horizontal (checked with spirit level). Varying cartridge weight has no significant effect.

Should I just accept that it can't be perfect in every way? Is there any point in playing with the VTA or azimuth (too scared to try so far)? Or could the phono stage be holding it back?

Vinyl is a small part of my listening, so don't want to spend too much on a random quest for unachievable perfection. Any advice welcome.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by proux

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...roduct_ID/2604

I have owned this beautiful turntable for a year, but after upgrading the rest of my system I find it relatively lacking in bass and general "ooomph" (getting technical!) on rock and dance music compare to my CD player. It is sublime with jazz and classical.

The rest of the stuff: Arcam FMJ CD33 player, A32 amp / P25 power amp (biamping), Proac Tritower speakers. The amp has a phono stage. Cables used: Chord Chorus, Crystal Cables Piccolo. Sits on the top of a 4-shelf Atacama Equinox. Fully horizontal (checked with spirit level). Varying cartridge weight has no significant effect.

Should I just accept that it can't be perfect in every way? Is there any point in playing with the VTA or azimuth (too scared to try so far)? Or could the phono stage be holding it back?

Vinyl is a small part of my listening, so don't want to spend too much on a random quest for unachievable perfection. Any advice welcome.

I would think it would be pretty well setup. A few things come to mind. personally, I do not feel that you will get the bass performance of your CDP. Phono stages actually include filters to prevent low frequency warp and rumble reaching the amplifier.

The TT itself is a budget unit............IMO the TT world cost/performance bubble runs a lot higher than the CDP bubble. Spend £800.00 on a CDP and your probably going to need to triple that at a minimum.

That is not to say that you cant get some increased performance by changing the cart and phono stage, but and its a big but.......the most important change to a TT is the plinth, motor and platter. It probably equates to about 60% 0f the musical character, the arm about 30% and the cart about 10%. You can quickly work out how you would want to spend your money looking at those figures.

I deliberately have not mentioned the phono stage because thats really part of the amp, even though many are seperate it still fits into the category. There are quite significant gains to be made from changing the phono stage, but to benefit, the amplifier must be capable and so must the TT. Its Ri/Ro philosophy.

[proux]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Its Ri/Ro philosophy.

thanks. I like that abbreviation!

The cartridge (ortofon Rhondo red MC) allegedly costs £300 on its own - no way am I changing that.

[kushtibari]

I used to own an X-Pack. Excellent value for money all round. I found the Rondo Red to give a lovely smooth sound much as you describe and it would certainly be the last bit I'd change. I found a big difference in phono stages though.

I tried three or four with mine (including the onboard one on my amp). My favourite was the Sonneteer Sedley which gave me noticeably better bass than the others I'd tried. I certainly didn't find that my CD player was overwhelmingly better, despite it costing 3 or 4 times as much. Having listened to CD players and turntables of a similar cost I've usually preferred the turntable.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by proux

thanks. I like that abbreviation!

The cartridge (ortofon Rhondo red MC) allegedly costs £300 on its own - no way am I changing that.

That gives you some idea for the rest. If the cart represents around 10% of the total then you are going to need to spend £900.00 on an arm and a staggering £1800.00 on the TT. Of course thats just a guide but does give you a bit of an idea.

Might be worth sticking a graham Slee Phonostage in there just to see if it betters the onboard unit.

[proux]

Originally Posted by kushtibari

I tried three or four with mine (including the onboard one on my amp). My favourite was the Sonneteer Sedley which gave me noticeably better bass than the others I'd tried.

Can I ask what your amp and CDP are, and which others you tried? Thanks

[kushtibari]

Amp is the Sugden A21a with onboard phono stage (MC or MM via some internal jumpers).

CD player is the Sugden Masterclass with the normal single crown DAC upgraded to the TD1541 double crown.

Phono stages I tried were the phonobox SE, Cambridge 640P and one other that for the life of me I can't remember. The Sedley was more expensive by far, but only went for £160ish on fleabay (I only paid £190 for it secondhand though).

Have you got a half decent tracking force guage? The setting on the project arm wasn't that accurate from my experience.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by kushtibari

I certainly didn't find that my CD player was overwhelmingly better, despite it costing 3 or 4 times as much. Having listened to CD players and turntables of a similar cost I've usually preferred the turntable.

My CDP was definitely better than my previous set up which was a Delphi Oracle/RB300/Ortofon MC30 supreme. With the Xerxes, OL encounter and Ortofon Jubilee the difference becomes more a case of choice and not sound quality. But thats about 3K worth of gear........my Marantz CD80 cost me around £80.00 with mods around £250.00 or their abouts (its hard to remember the cost of the parts and the work). The CDP is less than 10% of the cost of the vinyl front end and puts in a phenomenal performance......the DAC in the CDP is 1541A single crown similar to the sugden.

[rwtomkins]

Originally Posted by karkus30

My CDP was definitely better than my previous set up which was a Delphi Oracle/RB300/Ortofon MC30 supreme. With the Xerxes, OL encounter and Ortofon Jubilee the difference becomes more a case of choice and not sound quality. But thats about 3K worth of gear........my Marantz CD80 cost me around £80.00 with mods around £250.00 or their abouts (its hard to remember the cost of the parts and the work). The CDP is less than 10% of the cost of the vinyl front end and puts in a phenomenal performance......the DAC in the CDP is 1541A single crown similar to the sugden.

Ah yes karkus30 but I remember who modded your CD player and what he did to it and if you were buying new you would pay at least 10 times what you actually paid to get a CD player of that quality. So in other words your CD player and turntable cost the same!

I'm a bit baffled by the OP's experience. I seem to remember a rule of thumb from this forum that in terms of bass response - indeed quality generally - a cheap CD player will beat a cheap turntable but an expensive turntable will beat an expensive CD player. OK, so the OP's deck isn't a Linn but it isn't cheap either and at that price level I wouldn't have thought it would be falling noticeably short of a decent CD player, in oomph or anything else. Is there any chance that there could be a perceptual thing going on here? Eg, a new piece of kit will almost always seem to sound better than an old piece. Then there's the old thing about the CD player delivering more volume than the deck for a given volume control setting. Getting a bit more serious, obviously recordings vary hugely in their bass output - I would try to get an LP and a CD of the same recording where you are confident the bass output is at a similar level in both formats and do some rigorous comparative testing - although again, the different volume control settings make this hard.

Not very helpful I know but I just don't think vinyl would have remained as popular as it is among hi-fi enthusiasts if decks of this quality were so easily beaten by CD players.

[karkus30]

Originally Posted by rwtomkins

Ah yes karkus30 but I remember who modded your CD player and what he did to it and if you were buying new you would pay at least 10 times what you actually paid to get a CD player of that quality. So in other words your CD player and turntable cost the same!

I'm a bit baffled by the OP's experience. I seem to remember a rule of thumb from this forum that in terms of bass response - indeed quality generally - a cheap CD player will beat a cheap turntable but an expensive turntable will beat an expensive CD player. OK, so the OP's deck isn't a Linn but it isn't cheap either and at that price level I wouldn't have thought it would be falling noticeably short of a decent CD player, in oomph or anything else. Is there any chance that there could be a perceptual thing going on here? Eg, a new piece of kit will almost always seem to sound better than an old piece. Then there's the old thing about the CD player delivering more volume than the deck for a given volume control setting. Getting a bit more serious, obviously recordings vary hugely in their bass output - I would try to get an LP and a CD of the same recording where you are confident the bass output is at a similar level in both formats and do some rigorous comparative testing - although again, the different volume control settings make this hard.

Not very helpful I know but I just don't think vinyl would have remained as popular as it is among hi-fi enthusiasts if decks of this quality were so easily beaten by CD players.

Ok, thats yes on the CDP. However I still stick to my original comment that a TT requires a lot of money spent to get the same performance as a CDP.

Now that statement requires some backing up and Im not going to pretend I have the necessary technical knowledge to do that. I can only go off my direct experience of listening to many TTs and CDPs. Now maybe that was down to the vinyl quality, maybe the higher output of a CDP means amps work harder with vinyl. I just find vinyl a 'different' listen and in terms of overall effect, the CDP just has an incredible wow factor, it might be tiring to listen to in many cases but it can be like a heavy metal band versus a chamber orchestra. You begin to notice the subtleties in vinyl but it is not as immediate as CD.

The only TT I heard that had the same immediate impact was using a modified Decca gold cart on a Townsend Rock, playing a scaratched up piece of vinyl by Roxy Music. The bass had that impact that CDPs have, vinyl normally has a softer touch.

[proux]

Originally Posted by rwtomkins

Is there any chance that there could be a perceptual thing going on here? Eg, a new piece of kit will almost always seem to sound better than an old piece. Then there's the old thing about the CD player delivering more volume than the deck for a given volume control setting. Getting a bit more serious, obviously recordings vary hugely in their bass output - I would try to get an LP and a CD of the same recording where you are confident the bass output is at a similar level in both formats and do some rigorous comparative testing - although again, the different volume control settings make this hard..

I thought about all of these, but:
1. Have had both over 8 months
2. Amp has adjustable gain per input, so I have ensured with a sound pressure meter that the volume is pretty much the same.
3. I have done fairly rigorous (though unblinded) testing with a couple of recordings which I own both on CD and vinyl. A lot of my old vinyl is cheap Greek-minted, but not these ones.

I will have a look at the tracking force as suggested above, and try a good phono stage if one comes along cheap. Thanks again to all.

[OneDesi]

That turntable is very good, not much to change on that - I have the RPM5 and am new to the TT game. Do you use any types of mats on the TT (I was recommended a silicone one and it really did help improve the sound).

I would look into phono stages, I tried a few and settled on the MF XLPS V3, at £250 probably overpriced but now c.£150ish it was streets ahead of the forum fave, Cambridge 640p - there's a nice write up in hifinews on budget phono stages.

[proux]

Originally Posted by OneDesi

Do you use any types of mats on the TT (I was recommended a silicone one and it really did help improve the sound).

I would look into phono stages, I tried a few and settled on the MF XLPS V3, at £250 probably overpriced but now c.£150ish it was streets ahead of the forum fave, Cambridge 640p - there's a nice write up in hifinews on budget phono stages.

Thanks, havent tried mats. I saw the HFN test, but I think I might have to spend a bit more to really notice an improvement over my integrated amp phono stage.

[proux]

Just realised that the recommended input impedance for my cartridge is 10-200 ohm, while the A32 is 300, so I guess a better matched phono stage will improve things.

[rwtomkins]

Originally Posted by karkus30

Ok, thats yes on the CDP. However I still stick to my original comment that a TT requires a lot of money spent to get the same performance as a CDP.

Now that statement requires some backing up and Im not going to pretend I have the necessary technical knowledge to do that. I can only go off my direct experience of listening to many TTs and CDPs. Now maybe that was down to the vinyl quality, maybe the higher output of a CDP means amps work harder with vinyl. I just find vinyl a 'different' listen and in terms of overall effect, the CDP just has an incredible wow factor, it might be tiring to listen to in many cases but it can be like a heavy metal band versus a chamber orchestra. You begin to notice the subtleties in vinyl but it is not as immediate as CD.

The only TT I heard that had the same immediate impact was using a modified Decca gold cart on a Townsend Rock, playing a scaratched up piece of vinyl by Roxy Music. The bass had that impact that CDPs have, vinyl normally has a softer touch.

Interesting. I haven't noticed this but I've only recently come back to vinyl so I don't have anything like the same amount of experience as you. I should have said, I listen on a Rega P3 (new) with a Sumiko Blue Point No2 cartridge through phono stages built into my Cyrus Two amps, so my set-up cost quite a bit less than the OP's, but I have no complaints about lack of bass - at least not yet! Maybe it will happen to me, too, when I upgrade my CD player...

Good luck trying the different phone stage, proux. Do let us know how you get on.