DAC recommendations please?

[juggler]

Hi folks

Finally getting round to buying a DAC to upgrade my system, as recommended by the inestimable CJRoss some time ago.

Have been outbid on ebay for Arcam Delta Black Box 50s a number of times now and am getting bored of waiting to be outbid on another one. I've also bid on a couple of other DACs - e.g. the AMC DAC8 - but the time has come to buy one from new.

The leading contenders seem to be
- the Beresford TC7510 Mk6/3 - http://www.homehifi.co.uk/main/main.html
- Shek d1 - Non-OS TDA1543 - http://tinyurl.com/38hxe9
- Monica 3 Non-OS. Perhaps.

Anyone care to comment on which might be the way to go? Or should I be holding out for a second hand Arcam BB50? All other things being equal I'm inclined to the more conventional Beresford.

[Mr_Sukebe]

I've owned two of the above units, and can't honestly say I'd recommend either.
The 7510 was owned very recently, it does the usual upsampling "air, space and detail", but I found it very dry, like a cheaper version of the Benchmark DAC1 (didn't like that either).
I've owned two variants of the DS NOS DAC and preferred both to the 7510. They are brilliant at being natural, but IMO miss out on the air and space thing.

The best I've heard around that price point was the Behringer SRC2496. Add some mods to that, and it can compete with £1000 CDPs when mated with a decent transport.

[CJROSS]

Juggler, thank you for the kind words !!!

I actually use a Beresford – in one of my stereo setups. I have owned a few DACs in the past and I can honestly say this DAC is as good VFM as you will find in hifi. IMHO this paired with a £100-200 DVD player is easily the same quality as a £1000 CDP. Your not paying for all the fancy casework or dealer mark ups, so VFM wise I cant praise it highly enough, there are many users of said DAC who think it easily competes with their old or expensive CDPs. You can read all the views on the net, some good - some bad. Also note there are very good DACs from £100-200 on the market as well. I’d reccomned using one then spending as much as you can on speakers and amplifiers. If you do a search on Google for the Beresford you should be able to read views from a few different hifi forums on the net about it.

[Tenson]

Hi Mike, didn't know you posted over here! I just started posting to ask about a DVD player.

I have to agree the Behringer SRC2496 is the best DAC for <£100. I offer mods for it too, which make it even better. http://www.audiosmile.com/audiosmilebehringer.pdf

[juggler]

Blimey, that Behringer might be good but it's one ugly piece of kit. I'm having enough trouble getting MrsJ used to the idea of another box. A quick hunt around the web suggests that build quality is a bit suspect too.

So, assuming I don't want to pay £365 for a modified Behringer, how would you describe the differences between the Behringer and the Beresford?

Is one warmer? brighter?

My system such as it is a has a really nice slightly warm sound which suits me - but the treble end can sound a little harsh, almost distorted on occasion, and the bass can get slightly muddy with some sources, particularly action sequences on DVD. I'm hoping that a DAC will help these issues but was hoping to spend £50-£80 on a second hand unit as an experiment rather than get sucked in to more serious expenditure.

[CJROSS]

Originally Posted by juggler

Blimey, that Behringer might be good but it's one ugly piece of kit. I'm having enough trouble getting MrsJ used to the idea of another box. A quick hunt around the web suggests that build quality is a bit suspect too.

So, assuming I don't want to pay £365 for a modified Behringer, how would you describe the differences between the Behringer and the Beresford?

Is one warmer? brighter?

My system such as it is a has a really nice slightly warm sound which suits me - but the treble end can sound a little harsh, almost distorted on occasion, and the bass can get slightly muddy with some sources, particularly action sequences on DVD. I'm hoping that a DAC will help these issues but was hoping to spend £50-£80 on a second hand unit as an experiment rather than get sucked in to more serious expenditure.

That is the reason I kicked the Behringer into touch as well Juggler. The Beresford is a fine piece of kit for the money £60-90 second hand (I paid £95 for mine with an upgraded switch mode power supply), or £100-110 new with standard power supply. Many people use it in systems a tad loftier than yours (no offence intended dude) but the only way you’ll know how it will sound is by trying it out. You can easily sell on as there is large demands for these DACs on the second hand market.

FWIW the “muddy bass” you mention from DVD, that could be down to the “downmix” abilities of your DVD player, I have found adding a DAC to a DVD player is a major way of improving this, if your DVD player has a “downmix” setting flick it on – also set digital output from your player to PCM or LPCM. Sending a digital signal to a DAC improves the anlg outputs I have found on may cheap DVD players (and other digital sources).

[juggler]

Many people use it in systems a tad loftier than yours (no offence intended dude) but the only way you’ll know how it will sound is by trying it out. You can easily sell on as there is large demands for these DACs on the second hand market.

Drifting OT here...
No offence taken - I'm well aware that there's a world of hifi leagues above what I own, have listened to some of it and came to the conclusion that I just can't justify either the space or expenditure. However, when I can perceive flaws in what I'm listening to and I'm aware that it could be better than it's hard to resist the desire to spend money to improve things.

I think it's going to be a Beresford.

[Trixster]

I have both a Beresford 7510 and a Shek D2 1545 NOSDAC. They're subtlety different from each other but I wouldn't say one is better. The NOSDAC is perhaps a little more laid back which suits the amp and speakers I have but I've been listening to the Beresford now for a few weeks and it sounds excellent as well - it's two optical and two coax inputs make it that bit more usable too. Try both and see which you prefer but I'm sure you'll be pleased whichever one you go for.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Originally Posted by juggler

So, assuming I don't want to pay £365 for a modified Behringer, how would you describe the differences between the Behringer and the Beresford?

Is one warmer? brighter?

Having heart the SRC and owned a 7510, it's like the difference between a Benchmark DAC1 and a Bel Canto DAC2. Part of it is down to personal preferences and system synergy, but my own opinion is that I found the 7510 and DAC1 to be a lot more dry in it's presentation style . That initially makes it seem more detailed as it focuses your attention on leading edges. Listen for longer, and I believe that you notice the fact that the 7510/DAC1 actually miss a lot of the tonality of notes. The implications being that the 7510 shows very well what note is being sung, the SRC/DAC2 add the information about how it's being sung, i.e. the additional inflections.


Tenson>
I'm on a number of different forums, amusing to see the differences of style and opinion.

[Tenson]

Originally Posted by juggler

Blimey, that Behringer might be good but it's one ugly piece of kit. I'm having enough trouble getting MrsJ used to the idea of another box. A quick hunt around the web suggests that build quality is a bit suspect too.

So, assuming I don't want to pay £365 for a modified Behringer, how would you describe the differences between the Behringer and the Beresford?

Hi,

The modified one is £285 if only want it as DAC. £365 if you want the analogue input mods as well.

You could always just hide the SRC down the back of the rack, since it won't need to be touched most of the time

The Beresford looks just as fugly to me, too be honest. That little NOS DAC in an acrylic box looks far nicer, but I don't know which sounds better. (ahh, can't find a picture)

[KillerOfThreads]

I bought the Beresford a few weeks ago and rearly like it's 'dry' sound, partnered with a pair of NS1000 which are neutral sounding and i just love the 'as it was meant to be' sound. Add to that it's 4 inputs, twin outputs, one variable, and it's headphone output and it's hard to argue with it's VFM and quality, oh and it's a neat well built little box.

Another thanks to CJR for his views, he was right.

[CJROSS]

Originally Posted by Idoexist

I bought the Beresford a few weeks ago and rearly like it's 'dry' sound, partnered with a pair of NS1000 which are neutral sounding and i just love the 'as it was meant to be' sound. Add to that it's 4 inputs, twin outputs, one variable, and it's headphone output and it's hard to argue with it's VFM and quality, oh and it's a neat well built little box.

Another thanks to CJR for his views, he was right.

I dont know about being right IDE but it works in my system and yours and even this chap who owns a DAC 64 on another hifi forum seems to rate it quite well "The 6/3 Beresford does a very good fascimile of the Chord's balance, and it's an exciting listen. But the Chord still has it in terms of fine detail, bass depth and power, and PRaT (but not by a huge margin)." There are more comments like that, I read one the other day from a Linn Ikemi owner using one now, there are loads more testimonials. Not bad for £100 DAC.

[juggler]

Well, I've finally got around to buying a Beresford - it arrived yesterday (exemplary service from Stanley, by the way). The delay came while I dithered over buying a new DVD player (didn't happen since it would have led to a new TV and then who knows).

I had a couple of CDs which really highlighted the flaws in my system and prompted me to look for an upgrade; they exhibited particular problems of either a rather harsh treble or muddy base. These problems have gone but those aren't the only changes, which was a slight surprise.

It's probably not run in yet but by initial impressions are of enormously increased clarity, improved dynamic range, a little unexpected brightness. The whole sound just feels more precise, which is a large part of what I was after.

The wider dynamic range was a particular surprise and is entirely welcome. The distinction between loud & soft parts at different parts of the frequency spectrum means that some music feels completely different.

Another unexpected result was a bigger sweet spot - music sounds good through a much wider angle in front of the speakers.

I noticed least change with slowish classical music with a small number of instruments; a solo violin piece was very little different to having the DAC off, which was a slight surprise. (My better half could hear no difference at all). The most notable improvements have been to more complex or contemporary music of one form or another.

Oh, last thing - the DAC is much smaller than I expected - the photos on http://www.homehifi.co.uk make it look like a full-sized piece of kit.

So, thanks to all for your help in getting me this far. To any doubters I can highly recommend this approach for getting the best stereo sound out of a fairly modest system using a DVD player as source.

Next upgrades:

- fill the stands with kiln-dried sand
- consider a sub

[coliam]

The Beresford does take a while to 'run-in'. It's worth leaving it on with a dab radio or something playing through it for a couple of days.

I found it was fine after a few hours, but expect it to keep improving for a couple of weeks.

[stevefish69]

I have the Beresford which i'm more than happy with. I found that suprisingly the transport made a HUGE difference with this DAC. I've used a PS2, my Tosh XE1 and a cheapo Yamada DVD player which was suppost to be a great partner. All of these sounded bass shy and awful IMHO.

Plug the Dac into my old and failed Marantz CD50SE and the sound is outstanding (when it wasn't skipping) I searched for months for a new CDM4/19 Laser assembly to bring the CD50 back from the dead (RIP) In the end i picked up a Marantz CD52Mkii which again sounds amazing. I really can't stress how much differernt the sound is and overall i'm very happy.

The number of people that have a listen and can't believe that i'm using a £90 Dac and a 15 odd yr £35 CDP to produce such a sweet sound. People make all these comments on the sound of the Dac but how many try multiple transports until they find one that matches well ?

The Beresford was very Harsh and shrilly on vocals for a few weeks but over time this has disappeard completely. I just left it switched on 24/7 plugged into the Sky optical output to burn in when not playing music.