how much to better my denon 2900 for cd?

[reevesy]

hi all,
have been reasonable happy with my denon 2900 for music cds but have been thinking of adding a dedicated cd player to my current set up,sticking with my 2803 for the amp side of things.
think i remember a guy in a hi-fi shop (woofers and tweaters grandad ) telling me the cd playback was on par with a 200 quidish deidcated player?
bearing in mind i'm not one for spotting subtle differences ...what sort of route would i be looking at to significantly improve on the music side of things,using my current amp and kef speakers?
i have been looking at rotel or arcam players and would not be against getting more bang for me bucks on the second hand market.
cheers in advance for any pointers.

[ghislain]

I struggled with the very same question a while ago too...
Basically, one could do three things:

1) Invest in a seperate stereo amp and connect a dedicated cd player to it
2) Buy a dedicated CD player and connect it to the AV receiver
3) Use the current DVD player as a transport and improve sound by adding a DAC

The way you want to tackle things is by looking at how much you are prepared to spend. I think almost everybody will agree that for CD reproduction solution 1 is the way to go, so if budget is no constraint...

2 and 3 are closer together. After careful consideration I personally went for option 3 as I was able to find a very good inexpensive DAC (imported from China). Also, I was somewhat reluctant to put yet another device in the audio rack
There is a lot of discussion about DAC's, I would advise you to read the very good sticky regarding DAC's in this forum.
Never the less, deploying the DAC has made tremendous difference to the CD listening experience, so much so I am now rediscovering an entire CD collection

[reevesy]

Originally Posted by ghislain

I struggled with the very same question a while ago too...
Basically, one could do three things:

1) Invest in a seperate stereo amp and connect a dedicated cd player to it
2) Buy a dedicated CD player and connect it to the AV receiver
3) Use the current DVD player as a transport and improve sound by adding a DAC

The way you want to tackle things is by looking at how much you are prepared to spend. I think almost everybody will agree that for CD reproduction solution 1 is the way to go, so if budget is no constraint...

2 and 3 are closer together. After careful consideration I personally went for option 3 as I was able to find a very good inexpensive DAC (imported from China). Also, I was somewhat reluctant to put yet another device in the audio rack
There is a lot of discussion about DAC's, I would advise you to read the very good sticky regarding DAC's in this forum.
Never the less, deploying the DAC has made tremendous difference to the CD listening experience, so much so I am now rediscovering an entire CD collection

must admit i'm not too savvy on dacs so i'll have to do some delving...just a quick one..basically a dac is like a pre amp type thing?...i'm also considering getting a half decent headphone amp so am i right thinking a dac could do both?

[ghislain]

No, basically a DAC is just a convertor although in most cases it also comes with a headphone amp section (as mine does).
For some very good and understandble explanation, please take a look here: DAC Info that may be helpful

[reevesy]

Originally Posted by ghislain

No, basically a DAC is just a convertor although in most cases it also comes with a headphone amp section (as mine does).
For some very good and understandble explanation, please take a look here: DAC Info that may be helpful

how does the heaphone side of things hold up?........
still interested in peoples views on which way to go/views

[ghislain]

Those discussions are lenghty
See here http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178327, these guys are maniacs when it comes to headphone stuff

[reevesy]

Originally Posted by ghislain

Those discussions are lenghty
See here http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178327, these guys are maniacs when it comes to headphone stuff

how to you rate your headphone out?
have you got a link to your dac?
i'm not quite up there with the analally rententive...but i'm getting there
.....just trying to sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak

[ghislain]

Sure,

here's a pretty good link with some pictures in the middle of that page

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=178327&page=2

and I have purchased it here (very good experience)
http://www.diykits.com.hk/dac.html

Cannot comment on the quality of the headphone out as I do not use headphones but what I have been reading from the above mentioned forum it does not seem to be too bad (compared to much more expensive equipment that is)

[sharger]

Hi all

I have the same DVD player, and at the moment I'm umming and rrrring over upgrading to a second hand Arcam FMJ 27A. However I'm really happy with the picture I get from the 2900, its just the quality of audio cds I want to improve on. So would getting a DAC and keeping the 2900(concious of BR/HDDVD) be the better option for the time being? If so what would be a reasonable price to pay for a DAC and what makes would you suggest?

Sorry to butt in on the thread but hopefully it will return some good info

[ghislain]

Personally I think it would be an option that you need to consider!
I have not heard the DAC I am now using in conjunction with a Denon transport but since it sells roughly for about 150 GBP, I think it is worth a try. Should it not be satisfactory, you can always sell it on it'll be by all means less expensive than getting another dedicated CDP.

[Knyght_byte]

you can upgrade either to a CD player or use the 2900 as a transport and add a DAC...and it may well improve things a little......but there is one other problem, your amp.....it would barely hold up to a £200 stereo amp....and i mean barely.....i've heard it and it is no substitute for a proper amp for stereo listening......

not sure what you could budget to overall, but i'd be willing to bet if you threw mebbe £300 on a DAC and bought a £400-500 stereo amp you'd see a good difference.....assuming the speakers are reasonably good as well.....i'm saying this becaues you say you may not notice subtle differences so easily...which means you need to pull yourself up an extra notch on the equipment to what someone with sensitive hearing and an understanding of subtle differences would need to do......then you'll at least get a good improvement for the money spent........if that makes sense?...heh

example being you could spend £400 upgrading now and possibly notice a tiny difference, but for £700 you would notice a lot of difference......if the money can be spent, its better to spend more for a better return......whereas the other way around isnt worthwhile, as in £400 spent and you noticed a good improvement whereas £700 wasnt much more on top, then you should stick to the £400 upgrade.....(actual figures were just for example, not what you should spend)

depending on where you are in your equipment cycle will end up dictating whether a small spend can reap a good benefit or not worthwhile doing....

recent example from my own recent hifi past, i had a 3910 DVD player (the 2900's replacement) and a 3803 amp (range up from yours but prev gen)......i got hold of a pair of Monitor Audio GR10 speakers on the cheap...one problem, they were above this level of equipment in quality so i needed to upgrade..........decided the amp was the first step as the 3910 is as good as most £300-400 CD players with the right equipment......
i found that spending around £800-900 on a stereo amp gave more than my 3803 could, but tbh the difference wasnt overwhelming.....then i biamped the stereo amp (it was an Arcam A90, then with a P90 power amp) and that showed up a much better result, however this bought the cost up to around £1300 or so.....but that extra £400 certainly meant it was much better to do that.....however i then listened to a Musical Fidelity A3.5 for £1,000...and it threw the Arcams out of the window......the amount of extra power, detail, timing, punch, vigour and lots more positive descriptive words, was amazing.......however i went in the end for its bigger brother the A5 (£1,500 altho i got it for £1,300 in the end)......altho on my current speakers the difference between A3.5 and A5 isnt a lot in sound quality, just a little bit better, it did feature much more power on tap should i upgrade to more expensive/bigger speakers, also a built in phono amp which i will make use of soon......if i was definitely going to stay with my speakers for a long time i would have been happy with A3.5 and got a £250 phono stage....but knowing i want the floorstanding speakers from MA sometime when i have money it made sense for the A5, but only for this reason.....

so listen to a few options, see where you think you will gain the most difference to your own ears........and try different brands.....you can be pleasantly surprised sometimes by a cheap brands products.......altho not so often...lol
(example there being my 11 year old Aiwa integrated amp, £120 from Tandy....still working and has a fantastic sound, easily as good as most £250 amps i've heard recently!)

my bet is on a DAC and stereo amp to give you what you want.....but try your other options as well :-)

[sharger]

Hi Knyght Byte

What would you suggest for my set up DAC wise? (I presume my amp is up to the job )

cheers

Steve

[Knyght_byte]

sadly on the DAC front i dont have much knowledge yet myself, i'm aware of how it works just not got much time in listening to them....lol

i just know that the 2900 is a stable platform for a transport, a few folks i've come across who have them use them with DAC's......which is why i've recently been considering it with my 3910 as well rather than getting a whole extra disc spinner.....

there was another thread on here where someone mentioned a couple of models worth listening to at different price points, i'll try and find it and post back with a link.....i guess it all comes down to what you want to spend, and whether you want brand new or dont mind secondhand...heh

or you could just go with a whole CD player or CD transport and DAC if you want to move up properly......as good as the 2900 may be, it wont be as good as a dedicated CD transport due to the other lasers etc.....but like i say my own personal experience is somewhat limited...heh...however i feel like having a late night sesh at me local 7oaks, so i might book a friday evening slot and demo a few DACs there to see whats cooking.....if i get that in soon i'll report back in a thread on this part of the forum as to what i came across :-)

(altho it'll be using a 3910 for transport as thats what they'll have in the shop)

[Knyght_byte]

oh and your amp sharger isnt up to the job with those speakers you have, you need a good £3k setup of Chord stereo amps or MF A5 pre/power combo

[reevesy]

cheers for your input knyght byte
swings and roundabouts as they say...i'll have to get out there sometime and have a listen to some gear (nothing immediatly local unfortunately)....
just one of those 'silly question' things....without getting manuals out what would be the best way to add a seperate stereo amp?,you hear of people who have a stereo amp driving their fronts and another doing the rest....also could i just add a stereo amp seperately and connect another set a speaker wire from each front (using the bi wire posts on my kefs) therefore treating that side of things as a total seperate entity....as long as my reciever and seperate streo amp were'nt on and running at the same time