Vinyl Virgin! Where should I start?

[skimber]

More and more people seem to be getting on the vinyl revival bandwagon and as they can't all be wrong i'm considering joining in.

My current setup for music/movies is a Denon 2910 into a Pioneer 2011 amp feeding a 7.1 set of Crane Audio Oceana speakers.

With a decent deck through my current system am I going to be blown away the first time i do an A/B comparison between the same material on Vinyl and CD (I've already ordered the new vinyl special edition of Porcupine Tree's "Stupid Dream" in readiness!).

From browsing around the general consensus seems to be that a Pro-Ject Debut III would be a good place to start... but there's a few flavours! The basic Debut III, the Debut III E, a Debut III SpeedBox and a Debut III SE. I have no idea what the difference is other that the price varies from about £120 to £200. Can somebody tell me what the differences are? and is it worth shelling out that bit extra? Or would anyone recommend something else over the Pro-Ject?

Lastly, is there some sort of primer for turntable newbies or just any tips and useful things to know for somebody new to the format?

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by skimber

With a decent deck through my current system am I going to be blown away the first time i do an A/B comparison between the same material on Vinyl and CD (I've already ordered the new vinyl special edition of Porcupine Tree's "Stupid Dream" in readiness!).

Probably not, well maybe, absolutely..... it really depends on how you respond to what you hear and how well the turntable you choose matches your system, how well it is set-up and the phono stage you use - I don't know the Pioneer 2011, does it have a dedicated phono input? If not you'll need to budget for a standalone unit. Vinyl has a more musical flow and sounds more natural, speaking as someone who never actually got off the bandwagon, so didn't need to get back on the revival

I couldn't recommend any particular TT as I've not experienced any of these but, Goldring, Pro-ject, Rega all have a good reputation at this end of the market.

Originally Posted by skimber

Lastly, is there some sort of primer for turntable newbies or just any tips and useful things to know for somebody new to the format?

A good dealer, who'll explain what, why and how. if you are fortunate enough to have a audio dealer near you who has remained with vinyl, they usually are enthusiasts and will be happy to discuss the set-up process and so on (after all Pro-ject today, Gyrodec, Linn, Roksan.......next time )

Paul

PS. there was a Project Xpression TT in the AV Classifieds this week

Hi Skimber - ive been using vinyl for about 5 years for djing. If you like collecting music on certain formats (some music, especially dance music is only available on 12" - or mp3 which is usually a poor quality rip) or remixing it then vinyl is a great experience, but I do struggle with the quality sometimes - a nice crisp clear sharp bass can sound sluggish after a while - but mixing vinyl can be much more fun than cd. I wouldnt advise jumping on the vinyl bandwagon outside of djing/collecting personally...

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by The Boosh

Hi Skimber - ive been using vinyl for about 5 years for djing. If you like collecting music on certain formats (some music, especially dance music is only available on 12" - or mp3 which is usually a poor quality rip) or remixing it then vinyl is a great experience, but I do struggle with the quality sometimes - a nice crisp clear sharp bass can sound sluggish after a while - but mixing vinyl can be much more fun than cd. I wouldnt advise jumping on the vinyl bandwagon outside of djing/collecting personally...

Then how will he ever find out what that new vinyl special edition of Porcupine Tree's "Stupid Dream" sounds like and I must say if your only experiance of listening to vinyl is on a DJ deck(s) then you've probably heard the groove, but not whats really in it

Paul

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by Paul Williams

Then how will he ever find out what that new vinyl special edition of Porcupine Tree's "Stupid Dream" sounds like and I must say if your only experiance of listening to vinyl is on a DJ deck(s) then you've probably heard the groove, but not whats really in it

Paul

I've got to agree with Paul....the quality and overall sound of vinyl via a DJ system as compared to even entry level hifi is totally different.

Firstly,a DJ system is designed to take a lot of punishment,and the cartridges are not the most subtle transducers in the world,whereas a hifi-oriented system can take advantage of not needing that robustness and aim for maximum sound quality at a price level.

As to the original questions....the upper level decks you've mentioned have electronic speed control for the motor,plus extras like upgraded motors etc....the advantage of that is better overall sound,simple as that.

The Projects are excellent value for money,as are the Regas,and both can be found on the used market,if you want to buy a better deck for less outlay.

Dont be put off by comments about vinyl being suitable only for the DJ market...it's way better than that.

[CJROSS]

My current setup for music/movies is a Denon 2910 into a Pioneer 2011 amp feeding a 7.1 set of Crane Audio Oceana speakers.

Simon, if you read this forum long enough ie the Hifi one, you will see a pattern of people using AV amps like yours dude, and wanting better CD playback, thus they get a dedicated CD player, but the effect is diminished simply down to the use of a AV 5.1/7.1 amp to playback stereo.

The exact same fate awaits you, that is not to say you wont enjoy using vinyl or how it sounds compared to CD, but it (Vinyl) and CD both deserve a dedicated stereo setup to hear them even approaching their best. The pre-amp section for stereo in all AV recievers I have ever heard is compromised for stereo, only passive or high end AV digital pre-amp can do stereo the justice required. Why not think of how you can get a stereo element into your system, ie stereo amp powering the fronts. If your taking up vinyl its where you should be heading.

Paul & Alex - but vinyl wears down and the sound changes with frequent playing. For consistency and durability surely sticking with CD is a better option. Im sure we can all get very technical about sounds, but in 10 years time your well loved records that you play over and over again are not going to sound like they originally did.

Also, in all fairness I suggested a collector might want to try vinyl since some music is only published on that format.

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by The Boosh

Paul & Alex - but vinyl wears down and the sound changes with frequent playing. For consistency and durability surely sticking with CD is a better option. Im sure we can all get very technical about sounds, but in 10 years time your well loved records that you play over and over again are not going to sound like they originally did.

Also, in all fairness I suggested a collector might want to try vinyl since some music is only published on that format.

When CD's first came out I bought a CD player and CD's of some of my records, lets take "Dark side of the Moon" bought when it first came out in 1973 (ish). This has seen loads of action and not all of it good. I think I bought the CD version in 1986 and after 13 years I still preferred the LP (CD was great for background though). A few years ago we bought a limited edition CD copy, but I have to say 33 years on, I still reach for the LP over the CD - it still sounds better and has little or no surface noise. I wouldn't consider myself a collector, but if I had to choose one over the other, I'd keep my LP's. Fortunately, I don't have to choose so I have both and one day, perhaps, they'll get CD's to sound as good as LP's

All of which is straying from the topic a bit, but does reinforce that before laying your money down (if you don't have a collection of LP's) you need to listen to see if its for you as LP's are more labour intensive, CD's are easier to buy and so on.

Paul

Hi Paul - Im not looking for an argument here, but out of interest did the sound of the LP change? I'm assuming it has (for better or for worse)...

The one thing that supports your agument further is the choice of recording - many CDs are remastered and personally I dont like this - it loses its nostalgic charm.

[alexs2]

The difference between a cartridge aimed at hifi use and DJ use is that whilst robust,the DJ types tend to run high tracking weights,and do tend to "machine" the groove after a while,whereas vinyl wear with a good MC or MM cartridge can be minimal even after many yrs of use.

Many of my records are up to 25yrs old and played often....if looked after well,you'd be hard pressed to detect wear,and whilst on the subject of deterioration,many CDs can be pretty poor.

For sure,CD is a very durable medium,and can take far more abuse than vinyl,but vinyl still sells,many yrs after its demise was predicted,and its not solely because of the DJ market,which is moving towards PC based hard drives and software playlist systems.

I think if you compared a record subjected to a DJ system for a sufficient time with an identical one played with a good quality Hifi system the results would be almost certainly be audible.

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by The Boosh

Hi Paul - Im not looking for an argument here, but out of interest did the sound of the LP change? I'm assuming it has (for better or for worse)...

The one thing that supports your agument further is the choice of recording - many CDs are remastered and personally I dont like this - it loses its nostalgic charm.

No argument just an observation based on buying records and CD's for 35 years

As to the change in sound over all those years, guess I'll never know unless I get another mint un-played copy to compare - just know it still sounds great after all these years & this is by no means my oldest LP.


Paul

[Rich666]

[quote=skimber]From browsing around the general consensus seems to be that a Pro-Ject Debut III would be a good place to start... but there's a few flavours! The basic Debut III, the Debut III E, a Debut III SpeedBox and a Debut III SE. I have no idea what the difference is other that the price varies from about £120 to £200. Can somebody tell me what the differences are? and is it worth shelling out that bit extra? Or would anyone recommend something else over the Pro-Ject?QUOTE]

Hi Simber, I had a Pro-ject III and had to say it was AMAZING! For the money you simply can't go wrong, and if you change your mind they seem to hold their price pretty well. I paid £130 for mine had it about a year and sold it on for £100. Before you ask, I only sold it because i was bitten by the vinyl bug and wanted to upgrade!

The Debut III comes in three flavours as you say:

1) Standard Debut III - To use this you will needs a phono stage either built in to your amp or a stand alone one

2) Debut E - I'd personally would'nt bother with this, it's the same as above in every way but has a motorized tone arm (you would still needs some kind of phono stage with this)

3) Debut Speed Box (AKA S/B) - This is equiped with a phonostage and as a bonus also has a switch to toggle between 45/33 (on all the other models you have to move the belt, not really a problem unless you listen a lot of singles AND LP's.

Woops nearly forgot one:

4) Debut SE (special edition) - basically an upgraded version of the original with heavier platter and RCA outs so you can give yourself headache trying to choose interconnects!

Hope this helps, for what its worth i'd probaby get the debut SB

[analogueaddict]

Hello,

As you may have guessed from my ident, I'm a bit of an analogue audio enthusiast.

I will start by sounding a note of caution, the 2011 is a great AV amp, but it has some shortcomings as a stereo amp, and it's internal phono stage leave an awful lot to be desired. Getting great sound out of vinyl is difficult enough with a standard 2 channel system when you take into account the level of RFI/EMI floating around, without trying to do it with the equivalent of a small Cray supercomputer number crunching right next door without shielding, the RFI off the DSP's alone will mess much of the phono signal up. In short, we need an outboard, stand alone phono stage to go with your amp.

The Debut SE would be my first choice, I'd avoid the Goldring turntables, they just don't feel as well put together as the Project and I know there have been a lot of DOA's at dealers. Rega is another good choice, though quite a bit more expensive, then there is the used market, where for me the choice would be something like a Michell Syncro or a Pink Triangle PT Too, early Roksan turntables have droopy top plates and Linn LP12's only sound good for a week after they've been set up by a Linn dealer and you have to pray to Glasgow at 6.00AM and 6.00PM every day to make sure it stays working

As for a phono stage, you're utterly spoilt for choice, the little Project phono stage is insanely good for around £50, with a bit more to spend you can pick up a Musical Fidelity X-LP (cylindrical one) for just over £100, still a superb unit for the money.

With regards to Boosh's comments regarding vinyl wear, all of my records have ONLY been played on audiophile turntables if they've been purchased from new, whilt my car boot and charity shop recoveris could have been played on anything. Whilst my car boot and charity shop recoveries have signs of wear, undoubtedly due to god awful Midi systems playing with a 5 - 10 gram tracking force and using stylus profiled like rusty nails, my new vinyl sounds as good today as the day it was purchased, and some of it dates back 18 years. With a correctly setup turntable there is no reason why vinyl should show discernable wear when used with a decent cartridge.

As far as tips are concerned, i'd offer the following pointers:-

Invest in a good bubble level. These are vital to ensure your turntable is level, they needn't cost the earth, but they'll ensure your chassis / subchassis / platter are all level which allows the arm and cartridge to work correctly and prevent premature wear on the motor and bearing.

Buy a record cleaning brush. Both Goldring and Clearaudio do these, again they're not expensive but a quick brush to remove any traces of dust off the vinyl will save both the record and cartrdige from excess wear.

Buy a wet record cleaner. OK, a bit more of an investment, around £45 for a Knosti Disco Antistat machine, but vital for cleaning off boot sale and charity shop items. I've had one for 3 years and don't know how I lived without it, just upgraded to the VPI HW16.5 vacuum machine and it is brilliant, but very costly.

Get a stylus force gauge. The Shure is the stalwart, very accurate, you will quickly find you can tell when you move tracking weight 0.2 gram up or down.

I don't know your musical tastes, but it's amazing what wondering around a car boot sale on a Sunday morning will uncover, it's not unusual for me to pick up an armful of vinyl for £10 - £15 at local car boot sales, so don't restrict yourself to what's offered in the shops.

I hope this is helpful, if I can help in any way please don't hesitate to ask.

Best wishes,

Dave

[skimber]

Thankyou to everyone for the feedback and advice!

Well, I took the plunge and went straight past the Debuts and went for a Pro-Ject Xpression Mk 2 plus a "Phono Box" pre-amp.

Got the deck all set up, plugged it straight into the phono stage of the pioneer and quickly started worrying that i might have made a big mistake. It sounded horrible, with one hell of a hum. Quickly set up the pre-amp and sent it into the amp's CD input and lo and behold - no more hum and crystal clear sound!

I'm amazed at how shockingly bad the phono stage is on what was a pretty high end amp not too long ago!

Anyway... as far as vinyl goes, I have joined you. I am converted. All hail.

It's strange... I can't put my finger on why it sounds better, it just does. Everything, vocals in particular, sound more "real" I think. It was the latest Massive Attack "Best Of" triple LP that really blew me away, never heard bass quite like it!

I'm not 100% sure it's set up as well as it could be yet... but I have a Shure SFG2 on the way which will presumably help me fine tune it?

[Paul Williams]

Originally Posted by skimber

Thankyou to everyone for the feedback and advice!

Well, I took the plunge and went straight past the Debuts and went for a Pro-Ject Xpression Mk 2 plus a "Phono Box" pre-amp.

I'm not 100% sure it's set up as well as it could be yet... but I have a Shure SFG2 on the way which will presumably help me fine tune it?

Congratulations on your new toys Careful set-up will certainly pay dividends, but also trust your ears for tracking weight and anti-skate settings. I would also suggest you let the cartridge bed in for a few weeks (month) and then try varying the settings once more.

Paul