[peterlea]

well im after something a little different. im in the market for a turntable and amp to go with my new bw cm8 speakers im thinking a rega 3 turntable but fancy the thought of a valve amp not only for the aesthetics but that apparent warm sound for my new found love of jazz music.

i also listen to soul and a bit r &b and being a 70/80s child a bit of two tone.

i was looking at spending around a £1000 on a integrated amp so thats the budget for a valve amp i will have my cd connected as well but plan on mainly using it for vinyl.

i dont know the first thing about valve amps so any advice recommendations would be great

thanks

[BlueWizard]

The problem with Valve or Tube amps is that they are generally expensive and they are HOT. Make sure your circumstances allow you to handle the substantial heat from these amps. The Tubes/Valves can get as hot as incandescent light bulbs, which as you should know get hot enough to burn your fingers.

But, that said, they can sound fantastic.

There are on-line places in the UK that specialize in Tube/valve amps. One place is AudioSanctum.co.uk that has Cayin and Lyric Tube amps, a few of which are close to your price range -

Integrated Amplifiers | Amplifiers | Audio Sanctum

Do not expect Valve amp to have massive amounts of power. But, even though the numbers aren't they, they sound like they have much more power than the ratings would imply. But do note the available power from these devices as well as whether they are Stereo or MONO. Mono Valve amps are very common.

There are Chinese brand Valve amps that can be purchased much cheaper, and they are reasonably good quality.

Again, I'm sure others will able to point you to a variety of amp and sources.

Steve/bluewizard

[tazzo]

I know a dealer on eBay that can build you a valve amp from scratch, he is currently upgrading my Yamaha stereo amp to valve as he did with my CD player with dual triodes, high quality capacitators and anode power supply with guarantees If you are interested, PM me.

If you just want to buy one "off the shelf" here are a few places that I looked at...

hifiandaudio, valve amplifier, audio, UK hifi dealer, vacuum tube amplifier

Icon Audio Handmade High End Valve Amplifiers

http://www.bigearsaudio.org.uk/valve...mplifiers.html

Valve Amplifiers

Some of these amps maybe available to listen to on youtube

In the end I opted for an upgrade, as I get to keep subwoofer output, bi-amp features and tone controls.

Valve amps can also be very heavy due to transformers, some weighing over 25kg, and the depth being very deep. Make sure your cabinet can take the weight as well as size.

I would personally recommend against amps shipped from China, they takes ages to arrive, and if they have a fault, then your screwed. You will probably have to send it back to China or wherever.

Although I have no personal experience with chinese amps.

Either way, good luck!!

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by tazzo

I would personally recommend against amps shipped from China, they takes ages to arrive, and if they have a fault, then your screwed. You will probably have to send it back to China or wherever.

Although I have no personal experience with chinese amps.

Either way, good luck!!

This is true if you buy a grey import,but if you buy from a UK dealer,then that issue doesn't arise.

Most of them are reliable and actually pretty well made,and in the OP's price range,there is little competition apart from Icon,whose products are excellent.

[sebbyp]

You can check out Croft to..

They do hybrid Valve/SS amps.

Croft Acoustics hand made british valve amplifiers made by Glenn Croft. (Croft Micro 25, Series 7, Riaa phono stage)

[bluedroog]

I was going to suggest Croft too. One thing you won't get though is the tubes on show like some fully fledged designs. A Croft pre-amp is actually next on my list, I plan on the Micro 25 paired with my Quad 909 solid state power amp. I've not heard the combo yet so till time to change my mind but I'm hoping it will be a good combination.

[Ben Jammin]

if you are anywhere near pay a visit to these guys:

Deco Audio Home

good dealer in general tend to stock lots of valve amps. i've listened to a few and man they sounded good.

not sure why people say they are 'warm' though, doesn't seem to be true to me.

[sebbyp]

Originally Posted by Ben Jammin

if you are anywhere near pay a visit to these guys:

Deco Audio Home

good dealer in general tend to stock lots of valve amps. i've listened to a few and man they sounded good.

not sure why people say they are 'warm' though, doesn't seem to be true to me.

How would you describe them mate? (Never heard a valve in my life!)

I think they look bloody cool though.

[Ben Jammin]

It's hard to say, they just sounded like a really good amplifier. I'm not sure if valve amps have a particular character compared to other amps or if all amps just sound different.

[Roger Thornhill]

I have heard it said that if a Valve Amp sounds ''warm'' it is broken!!!

Mine can not be described as 'warm' sounding. There is real punch and attack to the Bass, the Treble is crystal clear (a big reason why I like it) and the Mid-Band is sublime....female vocals sound wonderful.

In my opinion, they have a sound of their own, different to Transistors but I couldn't, hand on heart say they sound 'better' than Transistors.
To me (and that is the key phrase) the sound is preferable for Stereo listening (then perhaps I do think they are better?). Now, what I like my Stereo to sound like and what you, or anyone else for that matter likes are two completely different things.

The only way to make the choice for yourself is just that, go and listen to some (and some Transistor Amps at the same time) and make your own mind up. If one sounds better than another.......and all the rest, then that's the Amp for you and no-one can tell you you're wrong.

Happy hunting and do keep us informed of what you think and what you end up purchasing.

Regards,

R.T.

P.S. It can perhaps be said that Valve Amps of low-ish power are a little picky as to what Speakers they are compatible with. This may prove a limiting factor for you unless you plan to change your speakers at the same time.

[a8ch]

I bought a pair of s/h Spendor BC1 speakers, the owner used a 1958 Leak Stereo 20 (valve amp) the combo sounded superb, I had never heard of Leak tbh.Asked him if he would bring it around for a listen.

Was so much more musical than my Cyrus 2, I bought one. Only sold it about 5 years ago. Valve amps are lovely and seemingly more powerful than their low wattage suggests.

[Mr_Sukebe]

Some massive generalisations on here.
I've heard a number of valve amps now. Frankly, most of the cheaper ones were pretty rubbish, and that was particularly so with the cheaper Chinese units. Additionally, go look on some of the more dedicated hi-fi forums for comments about the build quality and reliability of the cheaper Chinese units. It doesn't read well.

For all that, a GOOD valve amp can be magical, but you don't get that automatically. e.g. I bought a Canary integrated valve amp last year. New was £3k+. Frankly, I preferred my existing tripath powered amp (Bel Canto).
The better valve amps I've heard have been from WAD (at the cheaper end), Border Patrol, McIntosh and Audionote. I'd suggest that you stick with a solid state amp until you've got the dosh to the do the job correctly.

[Mr Pig]

Originally Posted by Roger Thornhill

In my opinion, they have a sound of their own, different to Transistors but I couldn't, hand on heart say they sound 'better' than Transistors.

I agree with that. I like valve amps but I don't want one. On song they can sound really nice but they are far more variable than transistor amps. They can sound rubbish, just a different kind of rubbish! Bad transistor amps sound harsh and nasty, bad valve amps sound boring, gutless and really lacking in detail.

A couple of anecdotes. I was talking to a very good Hi-Fi dealer the other week and valve amps came up and he said "One thing I've noticed about people who use valve amps is that they're always changing them." Is that true? I don't know enough people with valve amps to know.

Also, I have a friend who's used Valve amps for years. He's had a few and I think they sounded really good. Last year he bought a Naim Nait2 integrated amp and a few months ago he bought some old Meridian 100-series amps like mine. He has sold all of his valve amps! He loves the Nait, that is his new benchmark.

[martimu]

Valve amps, like transistors, have varying sonic signatures so if you can demo do! Also I would suggest it is vital to listen with your speakers particularly if the amp is of a lower power variety. Ease of drive does make a difference. I certainly didn't get the fuss about valves until i had a speaker change - my old speakers just did not gel.

Don't worry about people that have swapped for valve to trans or the other way and say the other version was no good. We all like a change, it freshens up our listening. I was very happy with my Naim set up and I'm now very happy with my Audio Note set up. Both are great I just fancied a change and the new stuff broke up the familiarity of my old kit.

In terms of trying gear you could also go on likes of pink fish or hifiwigwam and have a crack at the classifieds, it will be likely you can shift stuff on without losing if you don't like it.

Some people do swap valve stuff around a bit as they tend to be used by people that like to tweak, as they change the valves etc. I've had mine for 5 years now and have no intention of changing anytime soon. I was a bit unsure when I bought my stuff as was my first dabble so went through a dealer rather than second hand. Just in case anything went wrong!

Good luck and hope you get something you love!

[sebbyp]

I think I need to get one in my system to hear it. Problem is my speakers tend to like a bit power to drive them.

[alexs2]

I've actually kept most of mine....

I've got a pair of Quad IIs,which have actually increased in value(unlike almost everything else),plus a pair of WAD 300Bs,and a Cary 300BSEi,and an Earmax.

Valve amps don't need to sound warm and fuzzy,and to be honest,most don't,if you buy a good one.

I think though on balance,that I would agree with most of what's been said above,especially things like waiting until you can afford a good one,and obviously the power issue.


With valve amps,power costs a lot,and also weighs a lot,as one of the most important parts of a good amp is it's output transformer(s),and it was often said that weight was a good indicator of quality.
Tubes are the other item that can change sound radically,as different output tubes especially can have a huge impact on sound character.....a good 845 or 211 amp has got superb bass power as well as retaining the midrange qualities,but these things are huge,and expensive,and even I might not want a pair in my home full time.

[peterlea]

looking at the croft site im looking at least £1400 for pre amp and power amp. am i right in thinking i can connect the power amp to the pre outs on my existing amp then buy the pre amp at a later date ?

also not to sound stupid what difference would this Welcome to Croft Acoustics +44(0)1723 355111 (The official site for Croft amplification) phono stage make to the system

[coruja]

Originally Posted by peterlea

...
also not to sound stupid what difference would this Welcome to Croft Acoustics +44(0)1723 355111 (The official site for Croft amplification) phono stage make to the system

Well you will need it as you are planning to play vinyl. Basically, the phono-stage will take the very small signal/current from the turntable and boost it up to line-level required for the int.amp.

What's attracting you to those hybrid amps by the way. I checked out those links above and Icon valve looks very nice to me!

[peterlea]

itys mainly the power to drive the speakers to be honest ive not set my mind on anything till i demo some. im concerned that at 30 watts a amp will struggle with the speakers.

does anybody know if 30 watts will be enough s that is the min rated for the speaker.

does anybody know how power hungry the bw cm8 are.

[BlueWizard]

Don't confuse size with the need for power. In many cases, small speakers actually require more power. Though it is very complicated, and certainly not universal.

Also, tube amps, for some reason, seem to drive much harder than solid state amps. Many people find 30w or 40w tube amps to be more than powerful enough. Look at the minimum power specifications for the CM8. The power ratings will usually something like 30w to 120w, or similar. Meaning the accepted range of power is 30w up to 120w. This implies that it takes at least a 30w amp to get the speakers going. But, it does not mean they won't work on less power.

You might also want to look at the impedance of the speaker. Some speakers might be rated a 8 ohms, but have a side note that they can drop down to 4 ohm, or the impedance might be rated as 4-8 ohms.

Many Tube amps are using 100's of volts on the primary of the output transformer. I have one guitar amp that had 600v. Though that is stepped down to more normal voltages, as I said, tube amps can still drive pretty heavy.

I would audition some tube amps and see if you like the sound. Check the amount of heat they are putting out, and verify with the sales staff how much clearance the amps need for proper cooling.

As to the suggestion that there are solid state amps that are better than tube amps; more certainly there are, and if you are willing to spend even more money, you will find premium tube amps that in turn beat those solid state amps, then ultra-premium solid state that beat the premium tube, and ultra-ultra tube amps that beat the ultra-premium solid state. It gets down to budget and requirements. It matter not that there are £5000 amps that are better, when you only have £1000 to spend.

Steve/buewizard

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by BlueWizard

Also, tube amps, for some reason, seem to drive much harder than solid state amps.

The most important reason for this lies in the overload characteristics of most tube amps,which is of gentle slide into clipping,with predominantly even order harmonics,all of which is easier on the ear than an abrupt clip with odd-order harmonics.

This is perceived as the ability to go louder without nasty sounding overloads.

Originally Posted by BlueWizard

Many Tube amps are using 100's of volts on the primary of the output transformer. I have one guitar amp that had 600v. Though that is stepped down to more normal voltages, as I said, tube amps can still drive pretty heavy.


Steve/buewizard

The anode voltage of the tube used has little to do with the sound or characteristics of the amps at or towards it's limits,as it's got a whole lot more to do with the driving requirements of the tube itself,and the power output generated,which is also influenced by the maximum plate dissipation of the tube.

A 211 or 845 for instance will run an anode voltage of over 1200v,and if you really want scary voltages,an 833-C will require anywhere up to 4kV.

Most "normal" output tubes run anode voltages of around 400-600V,and that includes the likes of KT66,EL34,300B,and many other commonly used output tubes.

With the exception of preamp or driver tubes,virtually all tubes commonly used will be running over a hundred volts at the anode.

One of many reasons why really high powered SET amps are few and far between is the cost of transformers and potential danger of tubes running thousands of volts.

[coruja]

Originally Posted by alexs2

One of many reasons why really high powered SET amps are few and far between is the cost of transformers and potential danger of tubes running thousands of volts.

There's that famous Japanese American tube amp designer, makes the amps to spec, tubes about a foot long (amps about £40K..!) , basically risks his life each time he makes those things.
I'll find his name for you in a minute.

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by coruja

There's that famous Japanese American tube amp designer, makes the amps to spec, tubes about a foot long (amps about £40K..!) , basically risks his life each time he makes those things.
I'll find his name for you in a minute.

I was going to say Riccardo Kron....but he was neither Japanese nor American!

KR Enterprises now makes a pretty massive tube called the T-1610,which appears in the aptly named "Kronzilla" amps,and also was used by Cary Audio in their CAD1610 amp.

[coruja]

I think it's Nori Kumoro, although this review deals with an amp that just about kicks out 3 watts: People, Places, Music, & Gear | Stereophile.com

However, check out the picture accompanying the article..."Is that a big valve in your pocket or are you ...?" &etc &etc &etc!

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by coruja

I think it's Nori Kumoro, although this review deals with an amp that just about kicks out 3 watts: People, Places, Music, & Gear | Stereophile.com

However, check out the picture accompanying the article..."Is that a big valve in your pocket or are you ...?" &etc &etc &etc!

Neat.

I found the link to the amp you were talking about here...

6moons audio reviews: RoadTour 14 - Komuro's 212Es

It's worth a look,especially the 11th picture down where they're adjusting the bias,with the thing turned on,and on it's side....

It's a 212E or 4212 based amp and here's the spec sheet for the tube.

4212E @ The National Valve Museum

3kV on the anode.

[Roger Thornhill]

Another with 3kV on the Anode is the Wavac HE-833:-

WAVAC Audio Lab. Single-ended Directly Heated Triode Power Amplifier HE-833 Ver1.3

using the 833 Valve:-

833A - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think at one time the most expensive Amp in the world at $350,000 US. Still the most expensive Valve Amp I think.

However, getting back on topic! I have just checked the spec'n of the CM8's (wow, nice speakers you have there btw) and they are quoted as being 88dB/W/m.
A low powered Amp will be fine with these speakers so long as your room isn't so huge that the sound gets lost (this can even be levelled against Transistor Amps). In an average listening room they will be fine I am sure.
My speakers are 89dB/W/m and my listening room is of small to average size and my 3W Valve Amp gets loud enough for me. I never need to turn it up fully, ever.

I still recommend listening before buying though and for a deposit a good shop will let you try the Amp in your home.

As Bluewizzard has pointed out though, you must be aware that Valves do require High Voltages to operate and get Very Hot. This has to be of consideration especially if you have children. A knocked Valve may smash and expose the high voltages within. And little fingers will get burned if they touch the glass of the Output Valves. I have to say though that most modern Valve Amps now come with a (removable) cover, it may even be the Law in the UK that they have to.

R.T.

[coruja]

Originally Posted by alexs2

Neat.

I found the link to the amp you were talking about here...

6moons audio reviews: RoadTour 14 - Komuro's 212Es

That's the one.

BTW, aren't those speakers they are using, Devoire Fuidelity, just look insane, and to be truly annoying hi-fi perverts they use a Sony Playstation 1 as the source.

And I do agree with Roger above, the B&W CM8 are really nice.

[BlueWizard]

Originally Posted by alexs2

...
With the exception of preamp or driver tubes,virtually all tubes commonly used will be running over a hundred volts at the anode.
...

As a totally irrelevant side anecdote, and having at one time been exceptionally young and foolish, let me relate one time when I was working on a tube guitar amp that had 600 volts. There was a fuse in the common line where the Push/Pull tube power sections came together.

A fellow musician friend stopped over, and after several hazy smoke filled minutes (nudge-nudge, wink-wink) we got up to examine the amp. I held a microphone in one hand, and pointed at the fuse with the other. In the dim lite room, I accidentally touched the fuse sending 600v straight up one arm and down the other.

Fortunately, I had the wherewithal to throw the microphone from my hand, which probably saved my life. But it did leave a scorch mark/cinder mark in the palm of my hand where the voltage arced between the exiting mic and my palm.

So, yes, indeed high voltage power amps can be dangerous.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

Steve/bluewizard

[alexs2]

I can agree with that one Steve.

When my 300Bs were being built and tested,they were in bits,upside down and having a few things checked.
They had been off for a good few minutes but still managed to burn a chunk off the side of a screwdriver that touched one of the PSU caps.

Dangerous things PSU caps!

[peterlea]

just to update ive been to moorcroft acoustics in sheffield and demo'd one of these

and was impressed

off to deco audio in a couple of weeks to demo what they have to offer and hopefully sorting a home demo for the croft acoustic stuff.

im surprised at the lack of shops in the northwest offering valve amps