[tausifs]

I know this debate has probably been done to death but I would like to hear some opinions on a specific aspect of this.

I am seriously thinking of demo-ing a turntable. My current system is an all Linn system with Linn Karik CD player. I have no vinyl records but I like U2 and Michael Jackson and would get their albums eventually.

My question is , since the arrival of the digital age, aren't mastercopies all digital ? And therefore is modern vinyl a derivative of this and therefore coloured by the limitations of digital encoding, rather than the range of an analogue source ?

Or would vinyl, even if it is now pseudo-vinyl due to digital mastercopies, surpass CD reproduction and approach or surpass "SACD" or even lossless digital audio ? I hope that makes sense

[dan1979]

I don't know the answer but surely the limitations of CD (a standard set long ago) is not the same as the limitations of what you can do with digital nowadays.

[BlueWizard]

I think you need to consider the differences between the quality and specs of a professional digital recording studio and a common CD player. The common CD player and the accompanying CD's, are 16 bit/44k. This is ancient technology. Even low cost DACs today far exceed that, as to many newer pure digital file formats.

Likely most recording studios are 24bit/192k, meaning they have 256 time more resolution, and are taking samples at more than 4 times the sample rate. Which means that when they are downgraded to match the medium, CD are fixed at 16 bit/44k. Where as since, from a certain perspective, the resolution and sample rate of vinyl is infinite, the information can be transferred at full fidelity.

My point is, that they quality of studio master recording is much higher than the standard CD. Vinyl does have some limitations of its own, but they are different than the limitations of CD.


Steve/bluewizard

[amcluesent]

>Or would vinyl, even if it is now pseudo-vinyl due to digital mastercopies<

You 'pop' LPs are likely cut from the same masterings that suffer from 'loudness war' nonsense with everything driven up to the limiters.

LPs bought pre-CD era may be OK.

[iancandler]

Likely most recording studios are 24bit/192k

A minimum of 24 bit is more like it.
My small cheap home studio has been 24 bit for years and trust me it wasn't expensive to buy an M audio 24 bit soundcard, even back then.

Listening to vinyl isn't about the quality, its about getting some of the warmth back in and in the case of pre digital masters, getting closer to the original sound.
I wouldn't personally bother with it just to play modern LP's but I would if I had or was planning a collection of older material.

[tausifs]

Thanks some very interesting comments

[tausifs]

Possibly record label companies could also add a bottle neck in what actually makes it through the press in terms of audio quality.

I suppose although the master copies are now digital, from what has been said, it stil seems like vinyl could be considered an upgrade to CD quality. Are there any specific disadvantages to vinyl ?

[Ianfromnotts]

Originally Posted by tausifs

Are there any specific disadvantages to vinyl ?

As an owner of a relatively expensive turntable/catridge I can say I seldom play vinyl these days as its too much hassle to change the record every 20 minutes even though it does to me sound far better

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by Ianfromnotts

As an owner of a relatively expensive turntable/catridge I can say I seldom play vinyl these days as its too much hassle to change the record every 20 minutes even though it does to me sound far better

True...I also don't use mine a great deal,but I really do enjoy it when I have the time.....the sound of a good vinyl setup can be enjoyable to listen to.

It's the time factor mainly,as it means warming up a valve preamp,two tubed power amps and making sure the ESLs are turned on as well...other than that,no complaints!

[andy1912]

To me, there is no contest. Vinyl wins easily every time, and pound for pound will outperform a CD player. Gettting back in to vinyl a few years back has rejuvinated my interest in music. Buy more music than ever, which is great and I actually sit down and listen to it, rather than simply have it on in the background. I'm not bothered about getting up and changes records.

Andy

[winchman]

Originally Posted by andy1912

To me, there is no contest. Vinyl wins easily every time, and pound for pound will outperform a CD player. Gettting back in to vinyl a few years back has rejuvinated my interest in music. Buy more music than ever, which is great and I actually sit down and listen to it, rather than simply have it on in the background. I'm not bothered about getting up and changes records.

Andy

I have to agree, I was well in to Vinyl, but as I got older kids and no time to sit down etc, it was all CDs in the car, but I still have my good amp and speakers and its interesting just how good they sound, I totally agree that vinyl has a better band width to operate with , you need to put a Linn against any CD player, then if you are on a budget like me get Rega Planner 3 RB300 arm and a £50 cartridge, get to the boot sale and just go wow at what you have been missing, you suddenly hear extra things and instruments.
Carley Simon Your So vain, she wispers "Son of a Gun at the very start, but some systems you can hardly notice it??? if hear it at all???
If you have the space and the passion you need both

[confused88]

Originally Posted by BlueWizard

I think you need to consider the differences between the quality and specs of at professional digital recording studio and a common CD player. The common CD player and the accompanying CD's, are 16 bit/44k. This is ancient technology. Even low cost DACs today far exceed that, as to many newer pure digital file formats.

Likely most recording studios are 24bit/192k, meaning they have 256 time more resolution, and are taking samples at more than 4 times the sample rate. Which means that when they are downgraded to match the medium, CD are fixed at 16 bit/44k. Where as since, from a certain perspective, the resolution and sample rate of vinyl is infinite, the information can be transferred at full fidelity.

My point is, that they quality of studio master recording is much higher than the standard CD. Vinyl does have some limitations of its own, but they are different than the limitations of CD.


Steve/bluewizard

Probably this will sound very naive but then what's the point of spending on expensive CD players or dedicated DACs?

[winchman]

Its all about what sound best, not the name on teh front or the cost, but its too easy to get caught up in who has the most expensice.
I owned a Rega Planner 3 for 15+ years and I stillthought it was fantastic when I sold it as I just didnt play it.

[allanb]

Originally Posted by confused88

Probably this will sound very naive but then what's the point of spending on expensive CD players or dedicated DACs?

Like many others, I believe that (assuming really good equipment) vinyl sounds better, but only subject to some conditions:

(1) The vinyl disc is clean, free from static, not noticeably worn, and not noticeably warped.

(2) The hole is truly in the centre. (Quite often it isn't, and if so, you can't do much about it.)

The point of investing in CD stuff is that you're free from all of this, except the need to keep your CDs clean, which isn't too difficult. You also have more than twice as much music between changes, and the convenience of remote control, if you have it.

I have a collection of vinyl records which contains a lot of my favourite music. But I admit that probably 90% of my listening time is with CDs. Laziness is part of it, I must confess, but I also think that even if the best CD isn't quite as good as the best vinyl, it's still good enough to let me enjoy the music - which is the important thing.

[confused88]

Originally Posted by allanb

Like many others, I believe that (assuming really good equipment) vinyl sounds better, but only subject to some conditions:

(1) The vinyl disc is clean, free from static, not noticeably worn, and not noticeably warped.

(2) The hole is truly in the centre. (Quite often it isn't, and if so, you can't do much about it.)

The point of investing in CD stuff is that you're free from all of this, except the need to keep your CDs clean, which isn't too difficult. You also have more than twice as much music between changes, and the convenience of remote control, if you have it.

I have a collection of vinyl records which contains a lot of my favourite music. But I admit that probably 90% of my listening time is with CDs. Laziness is part of it, I must confess, but I also think that even if the best CD isn't quite as good as the best vinyl, it's still good enough to let me enjoy the music - which is the important thing.

If I understand your point correctly you are saying that CD offers convenience and perhaps consistency whereas Vinyl, if certain conditions are met, is better. However, this does not explain why very expensive, e.g 3-5K CD players, exist, especially if there are intrinsic limitations in the medium itself. Furthermore if the original recording is digital it doesn't seem plausible to better it or even match by transferring to an analog format, such as vinyl, although I guess a digital copy has to be transferred to analog at some point so some loss of information is inevitable.

[BlueWizard]

Originally Posted by confused88

Probably this will sound very naive but then what's the point of spending on expensive CD players or dedicated DACs?

Well, partly because the process is far more complicated that simple Digital-to-Analog conversion. There is the matter of Jitter and read inconsistencies in the transport mechanism, as well as read ahead buffers, error correction, etc.... On the analog side, beyond the DAC, is DSP (Digital Signal Processing) and the smoothing and filtering of the output of the DAC to make the analog signal listenable.

Plus, with better systems, they are going far beyond simply smoothing, they are doing their best to enhances the sound, perhaps in expanding the dynamic range, perhaps even filling in the blanks between samples to add to the digital information, which in turn can then be smoothed much easier into a pure analog signal.

So, while we tend to concentrate on Digital-to-Analog conversion spec, the process is much more complicated than that.

Personally, I think the digital sample rate needs to be 10 times the highest frequency required. That means, rather than the 2.2 samples per cycle at 20khz of a standard 44k DAC, we would need a 200k sample rate.

A more standard 192k sample rate would give us 9.6 voltage samples at 20khz. The frequency at which a 192k DAC would give us the 2.2 samples of a 44k DAC, would be 87.3khz. Now that would very closely approximate the near infinite resolution of analog recordings.

Recent studies have shown that, even though they can't hear the actual sound (tone or note), people with good ears are capable of perceiving differences as high as 100khz.

As to the sample resolution, 16 bit beaks a signal voltage down into 65,536 increments. That is, 1/65536th of the full signal is the smallest voltage that can be measured. However, 24 bit resolution takes that same range of voltage and breaks it down into 16,777,216 steps. That's 256 time more resolution than 16 bit. Again, 24 bit takes us very very close to the apparent infinite resolution of analog recordings.

Also, keep in mind that you might have a CD player, for example, with a 24 bit/ 96k DAC. However, it only has ONE of those DACs. The DAC is multiplexed to give half its time to one channel and the other half to the other channel, making the functional sample rate 96/2 = 48k. That leaves a slight margin for switching time delays and still allows the standard 44.1k sample rate of the Standard CD specification.

Really good CD players have DUAL DACs, far in excess of the standard CD spec. The Cambridge Audio 840C uses twin Wolfson 24bit/384k DACs. Though the 384k is for upsampling, the highest standard input resolution is 192k, which, as I have demonstrated, is very close to the infinite resolution of analog.

So, back to the original question, if studios are using multiple 24bit/192k DACs, they are as close to analog as it is possible to be. Keep in mind that while we say in theory, that analog has infinite resolution, and infinite sample rate, as well as, more or less, infinite frequency response, the realities of the physical world, make that true only in theory. In practicality, and in my not so humble opinion, if you are operating at 24bit/192k, you are operating virtually at analog or above.

As to the first question, whether it is worth while to add analog vinyl playback capability to your system, especially when you don't already have a record collection, that is a very personal matter. I've got a reasonably good collection of vinyl, so I absolute would not be without a turntable.

However, if you plan to start a vinyl collection, there is a reasonable good selection of audiophile re-mastered records in every genre, especially in the area of classics, whether it be classic rock, classic jazz, or classic classics. Plus many modern artists are insisting that there music also be release on vinyl. Just don't expect it to be cheap. I think the re-issue of Hendrix - Electric Lady Land is about £30. Vintage original first-run pressings of this album can sell for as much as £300.

Despite the cost, most vinyl, even the standard on the street commercial pressing from the old days, still have a warmth and clarity that you just don't find in CD's. Ticks, pops, and static...yes, but once the music starts, you completely forget about these distraction.

Personally, I would like to see a new medium replace the standard CD, something 24bit with a minimum of double (96k), though preferably 4x, the current standard sample rate. However, for most consumers, the standard CD is, at best, 'good enough'. And, with MP3 (...spit...) and iTunes taking over, it is next to impossible to convince the average consumer that 'good enough' really just in NOT 'good enough'.

Back in the day, you know when I was young and dinosaurs roamed the earth, next to a car, every kids second top-on-the-list dream was a good stereo system. Today, I'm sorry to say, that few kids have even seen, much less heard, a moderately good stereo system. They just don't know what they are missing.

I can't help wondering how kids even manage to throw a party now days, do they all just stand around the room listening to their iPods? Music used to be a shared experience, now, today, it seem more like an isolating experience, but then, that just me ...what do I know?

Steve/bluewizard

[nik41]

As an LP12 owner and i have loads of lp's inculding everything U2 up to how to dismantle an atomic bomb is on LP plus a few MJ pressings - don't bother it is hassel and grief and a constant nag around your neck. If like me you have a truck load of lp's get a TT that suits and play them they sound great but I prefer the CD myself most of the time and for the odd one that sounds better it ain't worth the hassel if starting from scratch IMO of course

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Fascinating read as I've been on the phone today ringing several dealers getting advice on my return to vinyl and turntables, looks like I'm going with a Rega P5.

I've managed to get afew of my favourite LP's that I've got on CD from Ebay for less than a fiver and I can't wait to compare the cd vs the vinyl as for years I've heard many people say that Vinyl still offers superior sound which for me is all that matters, turning the LP over after 20mins isn't a problem, and you get all that great artwork in all its glory, crazy really but I haven't been this excited about a new bit of kit in ages, the chance to get all my old vinyl out that hasn't seen the light of day in over 20 years is going to be a trip down memory lane I can't wait to take

[Ianfromnotts]

Have you spoken to Tom Fletcher at Nottingham Analogue ??

[Vipers @ Zinc-HT]

Originally Posted by Ianfromnotts

Have you spoken to Tom Fletcher at Nottingham Analogue ??

Wow, looking at their website I think I should

Thanks

[Ianfromnotts]

Toms a real enthusiast and if your anywhere near M1 j27 sure he would welcome you for a listen. Check out ebay too, not connected to me but there was a spacedeck ( think it was ) with arm and cartride for £700 when i last looked.

[Ianfromnotts]

Not sure he has a web or even does emails, ???

Nottingham Analogue Studio, Electronic Assemblies - Customised, PCB - Prototyping

[confused88]

Originally Posted by BlueWizard

......

Personally, I would like to see a new medium replace the standard CD, something 24bit with a minimum of double (96k), though preferably 4x, the current standard sample rate. However, for most consumers, the standard CD is, at best, 'good enough'. And, with MP3 (...spit...) and iTunes taking over, it is next to impossible to convince the average consumer that 'good enough' really just in NOT 'good enough'.

Back in the day, you know when I was young and dinosaurs roamed the earth, next to a car, every kids second top-on-the-list dream was a good stereo system. Today, I'm sorry to say, that few kids have even seen, much less heard, a moderately good stereo system. They just don't know what they are missing.

I can't help wondering how kids even manage to throw a party now days, do they all just stand around the room listening to their iPods? Music used to be a shared experience, now, today, it seem more like an isolating experience, but then, that just me ...what do I know?

Steve/bluewizard

Thanks bluewizard,
That was a very interesting analysis although it would take a few more reads to understand it a bit more. Isn't bluray/dvd a more suitable medium even for music?
I guess the steps you described could also take place with high precision in a device that doesn't rely on a physical medium such as the Transporter from Logitech.
Of course the convenience of CD and MP3 players for most consumers outweighs any advantages that a better system could offer.

I guess most kids throw parties todays by connecting their iPods to a mini hifi, or an iPod dock (at best the B&W Zeppelin). But you don't need to look at kids as adults pretty much take that route too.
As for music becoming an isolated experience that's certainly true but not just for music. You go to coffee shops today and predominately you see people alone with laptops and iPhones. I have an unlimited Cinema card and in the weekdays I sometimes go to the movies alone where pretty much most of the viewers have unlimited cards and also go alone. On the way to the Cinema, I listen to music via my mp3 player, it's just not an iPod as I hate their software...
10 years ago I didn't even want to get a TV as it would prevent me from socializing and now I have hundreds of dvds and keep my self busy with what home cinema to get...

[andy1912]

Originally Posted by vipers

Fascinating read as I've been on the phone today ringing several dealers getting advice on my return to vinyl and turntables, looks like I'm going with a Rega P5.

I've managed to get afew of my favourite LP's that I've got on CD from Ebay for less than a fiver and I can't wait to compare the cd vs the vinyl as for years I've heard many people say that Vinyl still offers superior sound which for me is all that matters, turning the LP over after 20mins isn't a problem, and you get all that great artwork in all its glory, crazy really but I haven't been this excited about a new bit of kit in ages, the chance to get all my old vinyl out that hasn't seen the light of day in over 20 years is going to be a trip down memory lane I can't wait to take

And you can if you want get one or more of these to show off your favourite vinyl covers :