Which cd player best match for my amp

[martian1]

I want to upgrage my ageing Pioneer pd703 cd player for either of these two models.

Marantz cd63 KI Signature
Arcam CD72T

I will most likely try and pick one up on ebay, I quite like the sound of my pioneer but find it a bit bright at times. Bearing this in mind anyone with experience of trying to match these with amps.....Help!
I have an Audiolab 8000S amp which i dont want to change [and hope this isnt causing the brightness]. My speaker cable is QED silver anniversary and a pair of Kef q50 speakers.

[ditton15]

a few comments:

- I have been told that the QED silver ann can cause brightness.
- since I have the 8000S, I'd like to think it was just clean
- I was prompted down the Meridian transport + good dac route to match the 800S
- see recent thread on Meridian CD players for more

btw, how do you do dvd play? you say that you like pioneer; do the newer i-link pioneer dvd models appeal? one of these could act as cd transport for use with a top dac, like the Dax Deacde, say, which is also a pre-amp (volume control).

from below, you can see that I use the 8000S in power mode

hope this helps

[karkus30]

The audiolab amp has always had a very neutral sound, a shade uninvolving to my ears, the Pioneer is probably not going to do it any favours.

I have used the KI sig model in my set up, its not extremely bright, but is detailed, which would probably make it sound a bit harsh in your system. I dont know the CD72, but I used to own the older Arcam player, which was less detailed but was quite rythmnic in its presentation avoiding any harshness, probably a better match.

Silver cable does add to a brighter sound, but it might be worth mucking about with room acoustics, moving the speakers back against the wall to re enforce the bass, heavy stands, toing in the speakers, adding some soft furnishings etc. etc

[martian1]

Ditton my dvd player is a sony DVP-900NS [Was their flagship player] i havn't tried it with the audiolab but did with the 8000a i had, i prefered the pioneer. I found it much more detailed. I may be being a bit picky but at higher volumes the brightness in high pitched vocals is killing the sound which i otherwise love.
Do you think adding a DAC to the sony or pioneer would be worth it. And what am i likely to pay.
Karcus30 i dont think i will bother with the Marantz you are not the first to mention its brightness in certain systems. I may still have a listen to a Arcam player, i may experiment with speaker movement [hav'nt much room to move them though] and may try the Chord rumour4 speaker cable. I have a feeling if i swap cable i may lose the detail as well as the brightness. And the rumour cable isn't cheap.

[GaryG]

Try and audition one of the Reference KEFs the Ref1 1.1, 2, 2.2 etc. The Q50 uses the N19 Supranol 19mm tweeter in it's Uni-Q driver, which has a tendency to sound a bit 'edgy', the Reference range use the N25 synthetic silk cloth 25mm tweeter which gives a far sweeter HF response. I'd also give CableTalk Concert cable a try, I prefered it to the QED Silver stuff, it also has more bass weight.

EDIT
For background info I thought it would be worth mentioning that I used to have Audiolab amps (8000Q, 8000P, 8000M, 8000MX) and KEF speakers (Q15, 100, TDM34, Ref 4) and QED cable (79 strand, Silver standard and Bi-Wire).

[martian1]

Thanks gary you might be on to something here, i think my speakers may be the weak link. My amp is crying out for better , i don't think i had this problem before because my Kefs had never been pushed hard enough before!
Luckily i have a pair of old Cyrus [before mission] speakers i can try, i cannot remember exactly what they are but my local severnoaks dealer wanted to snap them up from me [for himself] so they can't be bad! i will see if this improves brightness. If it does then its a speaker change.
One other question do you think it worth while getting my cd player upgraded [timing etc] i have heard of this being done to my player but i don't have a clue who could do this, at a reasonable cost.
If this isn't cost effective and its not my speakers i am starting to get a little lost, i am being steered away from my original ...change cd player idea!

[GaryG]

I have no experience with the Pioneer PD 703 so can't comment, however you may find this link of interest.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread/t-19388.html

Also, of the various re-clocking boards available, you should consider Audio Synthesis, not a well known name but certainly one of the best.

http://www.audiosynthesis.co.uk/tran...conversion.htm

Given the cost of the above board I would suggest you talk to David at AS and ask his advice on such an upgrade.

I was in a similar situation to yourself a few years ago, upgrading from Cyrus speakers (spooky or what!) through Mission to KEF, upgrading my CD from Arcam to Meridian and then moving on from Audiolab to Krell amps. I now use a Meridian 602 transport fitted with an earlier version of the above re-clocking board, after listening to a fair number of CD players and transports the 602 came out top of the pile.

http://www.geocities.com/shianjer/Meridian_602_606.html

I bought a Meridian 596 earlier in the year in the hope of having a combined DVD/CD transport but was disappointed with it's CD performance, I phoned David at AS for his advice on a universal transport to rival the 602, his answer, there isn't one. He told me that the 602 was one of the best transports available and given that you can get them second-hand for less than £800 they are a bit of a bargain. There are several available on the adverts section of www.hififorsale.com. Also Ditton 15 has several Meridian combo's for sale as he has now upgraded through the statosphere!

[pbirkett]

Originally posted by karkus30
Silver cable does add to a brighter sound

Thats a myth actually. If anything, proper silver cable has calmer highs than copper cable. People have heard silver plated copper cables, which tend to be no brighter IMO than copper, but certainly more detailed, but read this as being bright. Decent silver cable should certainly help calm hot treble.

[CJROSS]

Martian, Some excellent replis so far, here is another tact : as an existing owner of an Audiolab 8000S does this amp have pre-ins to be used as a PA ? If so read on how about a DAC/Pre amp upgrade ? I also note you have a Sony NSV-900 SACD/DVDV player, well a friend of mine has recently added a TAG Pre 32 to his NSV-900 fed into TAG 60PA and lest say he is more than happy, both with the upgrade in Pre-amp into the PAs (he was using a 8000A before FWIW) and the DAC section upgrade. TAG have a couple of factory refurbs for sale if your interested over on the their website (you may have to register to browse these sections) : FWIW I think the sound I get from my DVD player via my TAG DAC 20 (2 versions down from the 24/192Khz Pre32s below is awesome, and that’s even downmixing 5.1 DVD-V into 2 channel stereo via the DAC.


http://www.tagmclaren.com/members/news/news14.asp

When the DPA32R was launched it was the first high-performance pre-amplifier, that provided analog pre-amplification + high-precision digital to analog conversion + full cross conversation between analog and digital for DAT/MD recording + full configurability + remote control + TAGtronic Sync Link to minimise jitter to a technical minimum + TAGtronic Bus for power amplifier control plus the option to add a high performance DAB Digital Radio.

No other pre-amplifier came even close to this specification and that has been the case until today.

This is what the judges had to say in January 2003 when they awarded the DPA32R the Hi-Fi News Editor's Choice Award 2002: "Built to uncompromising quality standards, TAG McLaren's digital electronics command respect and win loyal customers. This digital stereo pre-amplifier offers a host of unique features and is very flexible in operation."
It followed Hi-Fi News statement from May 2002: "Taking build, flexibility and support into account along with the excellent performance standards, the pricing of this model seems to me to be extremely keen."

So the message is, the DPA32R is for you if you want to build a superb two-channel music system of highest sound quality.

We have received 3 prototype DPA32R from our Marketing team. These 3 products were built 1999 before the production line started, hence they are called PA32R on their fascia, the initial name given but then changed to DPA32R for the production run.
Prototypes from the outside, latest technology inside, including 192kHz/24bit DACs! These are the only DPA32R you will see on these pages for a very long time, so better hurry to prevent disappointment, so often seen when people contact our helpdesk just too late.

Serial Number: PT-390-002
Colour: black

Serial Number: PT-390-004
Colour: black

Serial Number: PT-390-007 <--- SOLD
Colour: silver

All three are in equally good condition (85-90% optical quality indicator), second hand but well treated, hence they are offered with a 12 months back to factory warranty.

Your price: GBP 999.00 without DAB, GBP 1299.00 with DAB Digital Radio - if that isn't a bargain, what is it then?


Having spent £350 on a “refurbed” TAG DAC 20 with 2 year warranty direct from TAG I never thought I would see a better bargain from them than that, the PRE32s above are IMHO with icing on top.

FWIW I find pure silver ICs marry very well with large cross sectional individually insulated solid conducted copper. Not bright in my system at all.

[karkus30]

Originally posted by pbirkett
Thats a myth actually. If anything, proper silver cable has calmer highs than copper cable. People have heard silver plated copper cables, which tend to be no brighter IMO than copper, but certainly more detailed, but read this as being bright. Decent silver cable should certainly help calm hot treble.

As you stated , it gives the impression of brightness due to being detailed. My experience is based on the use of three cables in my system......Blue heaven, which is a pure silver cable, gave a far too detailed (too realistic? ) sound, that exaggerated the harshness of brightly recorded media. Chord Flatline gold, which is my cable of choice and is copper with some strange insulation and finally stranded copper cable, cant remember the make, but it was a Naim copy, this gave a muddy sound which was bass heavy and lacked detail.

[martian1]

I have my Marantz 6200 amp going into the pre-in on the Audiolab so it can drive my front pair of speakers for home cinema. I would consider a DAC upgrade and use the sony as the transport [would you plug the DAC into the sony's Digital out? can you explain how this works!] I only have a budget of £350 so i am looking at a second hand DAC. Are you guys sure this would work better than trying for a cd player would the sony be good enough as a transport, and what about timing errors etc.
Karkus 30 I have now tried some ixos copper speaker cable i have, the brightness isn't as bad but i have lost some detail and the bass while being more powerful seems a bit muddier now. do you think Chord rumour 4 cable might give the balance i want?

[Plump]

I'd try to find used Arcam Alpha9 on Ebay or so.
You can get them for under 500 nowdays, still a steel. You won't need any other CD player ever again...

[CJROSS]

I would consider a DAC upgrade and use the sony as the transport [would you plug the DAC into the sony's Digital out? can you explain how this works!]

Martian you have 2 digital outputs of your NSV900 Player one RCA Coaxial SPDIF & one Toslink Optical SPDIF, route the Toslink Optical connection to your 6200 AV amp for DVD-V movies, then route your RCA Coaxial output towards a DACs RCA SPDIF input. When listening to CD ensure your SACD/DVD-V players output is set to PCM or Linear PCM, your NSV 900 should default to this when reading CDs but some DVD players have to have their output types toggled in a menu. There is loads of info/opinion in the FAQ above :

DAC Info that may be helpful

I only have a budget of £350 so i am looking at a second hand DAC. Are you guys sure this would work better than trying for a cd player would the sony be good enough as a transport, and what about timing errors etc.

Well no-one can be sure Martian only your ears can tell you, but I would sell my granny if you spent say £350-400 on a 2nd hand DAC like a TAG DAC 20 (End of line units still available direct from TAG BTW) or a MF A3.24 Upsampling DAC and preferred either of the CD players you are considering above TBH. Well once you start worrying about timing errors and the like in DACs you are on course for having a system that cost you a packet (including an upgrade of your Amp & speakers IMHO) and you will probably not be happy with it until you have exhausted every eventuality in DAC terms, be that with Digital cable quality, PSU cable, top level connections used, supports etc. A lot of us get very acceptable vibes from the off with DACs.

I'd try to find used Arcam Alpha9 on Ebay or so. You can get them for under 500 nowdays, still a steel. You won't need any other CD player ever again...

…. until your 2nd hand CD transport gives up the ghost and you need to buy a new one, No argument Plump the Arcam 9 is a classic & good sounding CDP, but lets for a moment forget CD replay here, can you route the digital outputs from DVD-V (DD 5.1 downmixed stereo via a DAC, LPCM 16/48), Minidisc, CD-Rs, PC SCs, Freeview/Satellite Digital TV-Radio or DAB radio for further reprocessing via your DAC. My biggest bugbear is that users considering CDPs at the £300-400 new sector would overlook DACs like the ones mentioned above, put off by talk of timing/jitter and the like, a well designed DAC is a good starting point, they can of course be upgraded again with a higher spec transport if you wish down the line, but in stock form a £300-400 DAC available on the second hand market is a better bet for 95% of people trying them than a similar priced CDP I have found.

[martian1]

CJROSS i have decided to look at getting a DAC as amongst otherthings the flexability of one has sold me!
I will try it in my present system and if i want to upgrade later i can get a good transport, my Pioneer [10yrs old] has a digital connection so i can try both this and the sony player. I may even get the Pioneers transport [which has had good reviews ] upgraded.
I like the sound of the DIY cables you have could you possibly PM me with the supplier you used and any tips you have for doing this.

Cheers!

[CJROSS]

Martian I will post DIY info here for future reference in case anyone else wants to grab a solder iron.

Speaker cable design from here :

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ffrc_e.html

Ordered from here :

http://www.maplin.co.uk/

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Products/Mod...eNo=19868&MR=N (Code VB20W)

Pure Silver ICs again from Maplins :

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Products/Mod...leNo=6227&MR=N (Code CC23A)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Products/Mod...eNo=34965&MR=N (Silver Solder)

Then some very decent silver plated locking RCA WBT clones plugs from Audusa £20 for 4.

http://www.audusa.com/connectioners.htm

AUDUSA Locking type RCA Connector. GP, machined from high copper content billet, teflon insulated. Two sizes, for cable to 8.5mm. A high end connector without the matching price tag (£10 per pair). REF:AUDLCKRCAGOLD or AUDLCKRCASIL, available with 120 micron silver plate (inner barrel) for same price.

So a £50 IC (2m x £15 for CC23A + £20 for plugs) and you will have a higher quality set of ingredients than you could by at a dealers for more than £100 for an IC.

If you are looking for a digital cable for your DAC above I would urge you to check out Mark Grants Power Buys Forum digital cables, a very reasonable price for a decent cable.

FWIW Martian Im a bit of a cable sceptic hence the DIY angle above. I believe they make a difference when I know they are there (ie with my eyes & pre-belief in what they do sonically) if that makes any sense, but to be able to select an IC from a blind A/B test I would not bet my life on it.

ATB