[i-CONICA]

Hi, Guys.

I've just taken ownership of my lovely new Kef iQ5se and love 'em.

I've currently got a Yamaha RX-V359 Home Cinema amp which I'm running just the stereo Kefs from.

Even though the Yamaha is said to have really good sound quality and has all the features I want and is really powerful, I'd rather use a more simple stereo amp, being somewhat a purist.

My budget is up to around £5,6,700 but I'm flexible...

The only other prerequisite is that it needs an optical input.

I've been looking at a Roksan Kandy, Cambridge Audio AZUR 650A, AZUR 840 V2.
I am a little taken by the much more expensive CA 840W, but not sure it's worth the massive leap in price to £1200...

If anyone has any advice or recommendations, I'd really appreciate reading them.

Thank you.

[Matt W]

As far as I'm aware, none of these amps have optical ins. But of those on your list, I'd lean towards the Roksan.

But if you can get a CA 640A on close-out, do that.

[i-CONICA]

Anyone know of any stereo amps in this price range that does have optical inputs?

[danoliver1]

Afaik stereo amps dont have optical inputs because they dont contain a dac to convert the signal to analogue.
Why do you need an optical input anyway? What will you be connecting to the stereo amp, cd player/dvd/ps3 ?

[CJROSS]

Originally Posted by i-CONICA

My budget is up to around £5,6,700 but I'm flexible...

The only other prerequisite is that it needs an optical input.

Do-able :

Some stereo amplifiers are starting to appear with both SPDIF & USB inputs on them, the one that to me is a cracking spec is the HK990:

Harman-Kardon HD990 CD Player review from TechRadar UK's expert reviews of CD players and recorders

Harman Kardon HK990, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Scotland, UK

I have an elderly Sony ES stereo amp with SPDIF DAC input section on it. I’d not be surprised if CA don’t add a facility to their excellent 840A at some point down the line, ie like the DAC section from the DM. Would sell like hotcakes. Naim are also adding DACS & Wifi to their stereo amps, good to see stereo amps with this facility. The HK990 @ £899 is a stunning bit of kit, given the connections and DAC section onboard.

[i-CONICA]

I'll be connecting it to a HD networked media player. It's audio outputs are from RCA, SPDIF and optical, Optical seems the highest quality option to me...

That's what I'm currently using to my Yamaha amp and the difference in quality is really noticeable between the digital and analog interconnect.
That's my reasoning for wanting a stereo amp with optical inputs.

[danoliver1]

Originally Posted by i-CONICA

I'll be connecting it to a HD networked media player. It's audio outputs are from RCA, SPDIF and optical, Optical seems the highest quality option to me...

That's what I'm currently using to my Yamaha amp and the difference in quality is really noticeable between the digital and analog interconnect.
That's my reasoning for wanting a stereo amp with optical inputs.

In that case you will need a dac as well as the stereo amp, (currently your yamaha is doing the dac business) look at the ca dacmagic and beresford dacs both are very good.

[Matt W]

He won't need a DAC if the AMP he buys has one in.

But it is another solution, AMP with no digital ins + seperate DAC, or an Amp with built in DAC.

[BlueWizard]

Or a TV that has its own Audio Out connectors, and most TVs do, it is just hidden in the SCART connector.

Presumably, he wants digital audio so he can still listen to videos, but you can connect the DVD player directly to the TV, and get decoded video sound, then take that sound from the TV audio outs.

The same can be done for game stations, stream directly to the TV, and tap the Audio Outs.

If there is another situation where you would need a digital stream to go to the stereo amp, tell me what it is?

For computer music, an external DAC is probably the best solution. Most DACs have multiple types of digital inputs to accommodate any potential source, then the digital stream is converted to analog audio.

Or if you have a quality sound card in your computer, just tap the analog audio outs of the computer; no DAC needed.

In your price range, I would look at the Cambridge Audio 740A, more power than the 640/650A, and substantially less than cost than the 840A. The 740A has 100w per channel to 8 ohms and cost £549. However Richer's does have a limited supply of 740A's at £399.

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 740A-BLK-GRD at Richer Sounds - HI-FI Separates, Home Cinema, Speakers, MP3 DVD Portables, Plasma LCD, etc.

The Cambridge 650A is £349 with 75w/ch.

The Cambridge 640A is £299 with 75w/ch.

There are a rare few 840A V1's available for £399 -

Richer Sounds - The UK's Hi-Fi, Home Cinema & Flat Panel TV Specialists!

An alternate Bargain on the Cambridge 840A V2 is £699 -

CAMBRIDGE AUDIO 840A-V2-SIL at Richer Sounds - HI-FI Separates, Home Cinema, Speakers, MP3 DVD Portables, Plasma LCD, etc.

I'm not sure why so many different price on the same model.

Another choice might be the NAD C355BEE with 80w/ch for £429.

Or the Yamaha AS700 with 90w/ch for £440.

All of those keep you at or under your budget.

Steve/bluewizard

[i-CONICA]

Thanks for the response.

The reason I wanted the optical connection is because I wanted to avoid analogue connections that are susceptible to interference as much as possible.

With the current set-up, If I switch from the optical connection to using analogue RCA connections, the quality difference is instantly noticeable. Even with good quality RCA leads.

SP/DIF would be acceptable but I really can't go back to RCA connections after hearing the difference between that and the optical or sp/dif connection.

I've read about a naim media server which has optical connections to it's matching amp if I read correctly.
That's quite far above my price range but I could reconsider if that's seeming like the best option...


Again, thanks for the ideas so far.

[CJROSS]

The HK 990 has a USB input too in addition to the SPDIF inputs for its DAC section, ie akin to a £230 Cambdrige Audio DM. I know a chap on another forum who has just shifted out a Primare I30 for one, thus it cannot be a slouch ... a £899 bargain. Again worth looking at the back panel in the links I posted earlier on.

For a similarly specced DAC you are £200 Plus. The only other amp that excite at a new price is the £750 CA 840A but no DAC board, but a lot of amp.

http://www.a1-sound.co.uk/data/extras/517lg.jpg

[dan1979]

It's not the connection that's giving you a difference in sound (unless there is some really bad interference but then surely that would affect the speaker cables...) it's that you're using a different DAC - the one in your amp rather than the one in your streamer which, if it's primarily designed to stream video, is not surprising.

Also, optical is SPDIF. SPDIF is a type of signal, not a connection and optical is one of the several ways of carrying it.

No offence but I think you'd be best taking a few steps back and getting a bit more of an understanding of how it all works before you start thinking about shelling out on new kit, particularly expensive stuff like naim.

[i-CONICA]

No offence taken.

I know spdif is the signal type, I was mistaken, referring to spdif and optical, rather than coaxial or optical...

I think you might be right about the massive quality difference being that by connecting the player to the amp via RCA uses the DAC in the media player rather than the one in the amp, which is clearly superior...

I'm going to have a play around with the connections tonight, see if I can determine exactly if that's correct.
It'll show weather i need to get a separate DAC with what ever new amp I go for or not...

There is the naim uniti which solves all my problems, being an audio player and an amp combined, negating the need for any interconnects, but it's only 50wpc into 8ohm and while I know that'll be plenty enough for the Kefs, it does seem to be at the lower side of what I'd have hoped to have available...

Maybe I've just spouted more non-sense... if so,

[BlueWizard]

Keep in mind that a DAC sufficient for standard music CDs is only 44.1khz/16bit. Today it is common for DACs to be nearly FIVE TIMES that capacity in sample rate, and 256 times more capacity in the data byte size (24bit).

That makes it pretty easy to duplicate an Audio CD.

So, if you have multiple devices capable of decoding digital to analog, you want to find out where your best DAC device is and make sure you use it.

The Cambridge DACMagic uses Dual Wolfson WM8740 24bit/192khz DAC and upsamples the music to that data and bitrate.

Also note it has DUAL DACs. Many devices like a computer of CD player us a single 96khz DAC and multiplex it. Since they only really need 44.1khz to reproduce CD quality, the have a single DAC decode both stereo channels. In theory this works, but in practice, having dual DACs in probably a better choice.

There is also something to be said for the general quality of the electronics in the signal path. Cheap electronics equal cheap sound, quality electronics equal quality sound. That is why the ultra-cheap discount store equipment never sounds remotely close to quality separates equipment, and why consumer equipment doesn't hold a candle to quality audiophile class equipment.

So, yes, you need DACs to convert digital bit streams into analog music. If you are determine to feed a stereo with a digital stream, I think you will do better with an external DAC than a stereo with a cheap DAC built-in.

Also keep in mind that it is not simply a matter of a DAC, beyond the DAC are an assortment of filtering and smoothing circuits that can effect the sound quality.

The Cambridge DACMagic DAC has two inputs each with S/P-DIF coaxial and TosLink optical, and additionally has a USB link. Outputs are Balanced or unbalanced line outs, as well as additional S/P0DIF and TosLink.

You can see the back of the DACMagic here -

http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/assets...Magic_rear.jpg

and read more details here -

DacMagic Digital to Analogue Converter

Unfortunately, these are relatively expensive at £229. The Beresford DAC can be had for about half that, and are generally considered good DAC, though I don't have any specs on them. These are the two that most often come up when DACs are being discussed.

You've implied your budget but I don't know if you've come right out and stated it. But for £700 to £800 you can have a decent 100w amp and an external DAC, and that should give you everything you could want or need.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

[CJROSS]

Originally Posted by BlueWizard

So, yes, you need DACs to convert digital bit streams into analog music. If you are determine to feed a stereo with a digital stream, I think you will do better with an external DAC than a stereo with a cheap DAC built-in

You've implied your budget but I don't know if you've come right out and stated it. But for £700 to £800 you can have a decent 100w amp and an external DAC, and that should give you everything you could want or need.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

Steve, I have for years pushed DACs as fantastic ways to enjoy digital medium from say DVD players, PCs etc but when you see the way the industry is heading ie with stereo amplifiers inclusive of DACs) I would look at Stereo amps with digital inputs from now on when looking at amplifier upgrades. When you look at the back panel of that HK amp, you get XLRs, you get USB input, Your get SPDIF toslink/Coaxial input, the cheapest DACs to offer that are £200-230. No if a budget is £700-800 you then looking at amps in the £500-600 range. The HK @ £899 makes much more sense. When you add up what these amps have in power terms and DAC facilities, you quickly see the way the industry is heading. Naim’s Uniti to me is a landmark product £2000 that buys you a £1000 Amp, £1000 CD player, DAB/FM tuner and you get a DAC section & Streaming thrown in for free, not bad for £2000.

When my elderly ES amp gives out a puff of blue smoke I must admit I can’t see past a decent stereo amp with digital inputs. The HK is causing a stir elsewhere. £200 over budget but a big step up from new £500-600 amps in the market at prtesent. Hopefully CA add a DAC section to the 840A it will improve an already stunning £750 amp. I also think amplifiers should have XLRs at the £1000 mark, and digital inputs are becoming a big selling point, see the slow rise of DACs over the last few years.

I disagree that bolting on a Beresford or a DM to a £600 amp is a better solution than the HK above. I have owned 2 B-DACs and whilst they sound decent, I believe they are hyped to unreal levels. Certainly sound no better than the DAC in my 1989 TA-F630ESD FWIW. When fed into the same amp.

[CJROSS]

Copied from a hifi user I know in the Wigwam :

Well let me start this review with a little bit of history. About a year ago i had a Beresford 6/3 DAC. This was used for converting my Sky Box and DAB tuner and IMO it sounded very nice. One day i thought i would connect my Primare CD31 to it and to my shock there was not a great deal in it and certainly not £1380 worth. Anyway through lack of use the DAB and Beresford were sold on. All that money sat there in that CD Player was getting to me and Holiday season is just around the corner so lets sell it i thought, I,ll get a decent enough CD Player(Yamaha CDS 700) As a transport and the latest version of the Breresford DAC. Job done Holiday paid for and sound vertually unaffected.

All was well until i picked up the May edition of HiFi News and read the review. I had read a lot of positve comments on Wigwam about certain HK Amplifiers anyway i thought i would ask the question. What amp would you buy for £750. Lots of different opinions were branded but one in paticullar caught my eye. It was a rear view of the HK990 posted by Jezzer(Thanks for all the possitives there mate) So i could,nt help my Box Swapping instinct and i ordered one from A1 Sound in Sheffield. I had,nt seen it, heard it, or anything. It was risky, Dangerous, and downright foolhardy. It arrived on Thursday, Bugger i,m in work until 21.30 . Longest day in working history but got home in record time. There it was a beautiful box with pictures of said amp all over it. Heavy is not the word for it, it took two of us to get it out of the box and into the rack. Connected up the Yamaha with coax cable from Maplins no need for interconnects as this amp has built in DACs and inputs for just about anything you can mention inc balanced XLRs. Digital inputs are two optical and two coaxal. Switched on and display read please wait clicked into life a second or two later.

First up Zero 7s Warm Sound track as it was still in the CD Player. i have listened to this track at least twenty times before but with never so much detail and presence the sound did not feel forceful in any way in fact the Monitor Audio GS20s seem to revel in all that extra power on tap. It was mentioned on the Wam that maybe the problem with my Primare combinations lack of involment were to do with the speakers and to be honest at one point i thought they may well be right. It was also mentioned that they were incredibly bright sounding speakers. I totally disagree with these comments and even more so now with the HK amp. Now for something more demanding Nirvana cafe by Karunesh lots of deep bass on this album. The Primare Monitor audio combo could never get on with this albums bass, speaker cones completly out of control. No such problem for the HK990 bass starts and stops in an instant beautifully controled and detailed in fact everything i have played through it so far has suprised me with extra detail with new voices poping up where i had not noticed them before a real 3D expeience You may have guessed by now that i really like this Amp.

It comes with all sorts of room EQ settings and i have not experimented with them so far and i,m not sure i ever will. I have kept everyting flat as it came out of the box. You get a microphone by the way for the room settings. All the switches work well and build quality is IMO excellent. Now to the remote control, its about a foot long by two inches, its black and has a mixture of large and small buttons its not going to win any beauty contests but hey it works OK and thats the most important thing. This amp has been a real earopener for me and i recomend anyone in the market for an amplifier up to two grand to give it a listen. You could be pleasantly suprised and save quite a bit of cash. Just one thing before i go.

ALL OPINIONS ARE MY OWN AND ARE NOT IN ANY WAY DISREPECTFUL TO ANYONE ELSES SYSTEM. Thanks.

Well i,ve ran it all weekend and everyday this week. I just can,t turn it off. Everytime i play something that i thought i knew out pops another thing i had not noticed. Sorry if i seem to be bangin on a bit about it though. I,m really looking forward to other opinions about it.
SOUND *****
BUILD*****
LOOKS****
REMOTE****
VALUE FOR MONEY*****
Well its been a few weeks now of listening to this amp and getting to grips with all the various settings. The sound in my opinion has never failed to impress me, never needing to use the room EQ settings but i have set them up all the same. The great thing about it though is the fact it does,nt matter what genre of music being played it treats them all equally as well. Listening even to Smooth FM on Sky is very impressive feeding the internal DACs. This amp has got to be one of the biggest bargains in HiFi at the moment and i urge anyone thinking of buying an amp up to £2000 to give it a listen.

[psdrumsdrums]

Hi, just found this thread as I have the IQ5se's which I bi-amp with ( original ) Audiolab 8000S and 8000P. Problem, is my S has just stopped working and so I might take the opportinity to jump in the market for a new amp - I would sell the S aswell to fund the purchase. My other stuff is Pioneer 50" plasma, PS3, Sky HD, BK200 subwoofer and Squeezebox Duet.

After reading this thread, I am taken by the HK990. Would this be a solus solution to optimise my system - I dont want to go 5.1, as I like the 2.1 simplicity.