[Hawkins85]

Hi,
I have had the Sennheiser HD650 headphones and the Sony TAFE370 amplifier for years. The headphones sound fairly good for "reference class" but I find the bass lacks power or perhaps more accurately, too much escapes through the open grille design. Turning up the volume just distorts it.

I'd like to try something new, I'm not looking for anything to replace the HD650 headphones, but I'd appreciate some recommendations on some decent full-sized closed type headphones, let's say at a max budget of £150. They would likely be relied on for metal music & explosions.

And if the HD650 headphones take a maximum input of 500mW, would a set that can take in over 1000mW reduce distortion?

Plus, have I been missing out by not using a special headphone amplifier? I'm not sure how much attention has been given to the design of the headphone output on my Sony amp. Could my situation with the HD650 even be improved by a headphone amplifier? I'd be interested in specific recommendations (tube & solid state).

Thanks!

[Hawkins85]

The headphone output of the Sony TAFE370 is rated at 5 mW (at 8 ohms) if that information helps make a comparable stand against expensive dedicated headphone amplifiers.

I'm looking at the Creek OBH-11 plus OBH-UNI power supply which I should be able to get for a total of £95, if that is a recommended amp over the existing Sony. I want to prioritise getting ideal amplification sorted before getting bassier headphones.

[Tautitan]

Hi

Can't help with the amplifier problem but I can recommend the Beyerdynamic DT770Pro headphones; they are closed and have noticeably more bass than others I have tried.

[Hawkins85]

Thanks, they look interesting and apparently they really do need some powerful dedicated headphone amping. Never really been aware of Beyerdynamic before. I'll keep them under high consideration.

[Tautitan]

They are a great set of 'phones and they won't be provided with enough power through anything like onboard sound or an MP3 player without amping but once you have a decent headphone amp hooked up to them they are lovely.

[Hawkins85]

Could anybody help me with a simple explanation to understand the difference between impedance ratings on headphones? The Sennheiser HD650 phones are rated at 32ohms whilst the Beyerdynamic DT770 pair is rated at 250ohms. I've looked at a few complicated guides and all I can seem to discern is that 32ohms is easier to drive resulting in higher volumes whilst 250ohms would be better at resisting against overload damage.

[cribeiro]

The Sennheiser HD650 need good amplification, that's where your problem lies, it does not have anything to do with the open design. I have used these with a high-end amplifier (Woo Audio WA2), and I tell you that you can go very loud without distortion, it almost aches. The distortion you hear comes from the amp, not from the headphones (unless they area faulty!).

Closed headphones is not the solution to your problem. If you want to invest money, buy a dedicated amp. I recommend the Woo Audio WA3, for a "budget" solution. I generally found that my HD650 sounded always better with tubed amps.

With the right amp, the HD650 will deliver loads of controlled, even and deep bass.

BTW, the HD650 are 300 Ohm! They are a difficult load, but others (like Grados), being 32 Ohm, also benefit from an amp because they draw more current (if I understood this right). Forget about specs, you have an audio gem, just need the right amp!

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by Tautitan

They are a great set of 'phones and they won't be provided with enough power through anything like onboard sound or an MP3 player without amping but once you have a decent headphone amp hooked up to them they are lovely.

I'm interested in any examples of a decent headphone amp. My integrated stereo amplifier seems fine with my HD650 except for the fuzzout of the bass. All my needs might've been solved if the HD650 happened to be a closed design. I just don't know if a dedicated headphone amp will open a whole new world of envelopment, I don't know if that world exists because I haven't been there.

I noticed you have an 80ohms version of the Beyer set, so I might look around for them. Until someone corrects my current understanding of impedance I'd probably want to get as close to 32ohms as possible.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

I'm interested in any examples of a decent headphone amp. My integrated stereo amplifier seems fine with my HD650 except for the fuzzout of the bass. All my needs might've been solved if the HD650 happened to be a closed design. I just don't know if a dedicated headphone amp will open a whole new world of envelopment, I don't know if that world exists because I haven't been there.

I noticed you have an 80ohms version of the Beyer set, so I might look around for them. Until someone corrects my current understanding of impedance I'd probably want to get as close to 32ohms as possible.

I repeat, it is not a flaw of the open design, and a closed designed will not be better if you still use poor amplification.

And yes, a dedicated headphone amp (good ones are not cheap, though...) will open a whole new world of envelopment. I have gone through several amplifications with my HD650, and it sounds ok even out of my laptop's headphone out, but it get better and better when improving the amp.

Do not forget the source, either. Using 128kbps MP3 will sound terrible, and the best phones will not cure that (actually, bad phones may sound better, because they mask the terrible sound ).

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by cribeiro

The Sennheiser HD650 need good amplification, that's where your problem lies, it does not have anything to do with the open design. I have used these with a high-end amplifier (Woo Audio WA2), and I tell you that you can go very loud without distortion, it almost aches. The distortion you hear comes from the amp, not from the headphones (unless they area faulty!).

Closed headphones is not the solution to your problem. If you want to invest money, buy a dedicated amp. I recommend the Woo Audio WA3, for a "budget" solution. I generally found that my HD650 sounded always better with tubed amps.

With the right amp, the HD650 will deliver loads of controlled, even and deep bass.

BTW, the HD650 are 300 Ohm! They are a difficult load, but others (like Grados), being 32 Ohm, also benefit from an amp because they draw more current (if I understood this right). Forget about specs, you have an audio gem, just need the right amp!

Thanks cribeiro. Yeah, I checked the Sennheiser technical data again, I forget where I got 32ohms from, sometimes tech specs get pulled from different conditions I think but never mind. I'm a little surprised that the distortion is from the amp end, it just feels to me like the drivers are being overdriven, as if they were being crinkled like rice paper. If they were underpowered I'd just expect a lack of volume or brilliance. Most music is fine but sharp beats and those movie explosions just "crinkle" up.

Regarding my interest in closed headphones, I can have the HD650 at a volume prior to distortion and cover the grilles with my hands to enclose that bass in, but that's not a practical permanent solution.

If the Woo Audio WA3 is a budget solution, then I'm downgrading my budget requirement to "extreme cheapskate budget".

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by cribeiro

I repeat, it is not a flaw of the open design, and a closed designed will not be better if you still use poor amplification.

And yes, a dedicated headphone amp (good ones are not cheap, though...) will open a whole new world of envelopment. I have gone through several amplifications with my HD650, and it sounds ok even out of my laptop's headphone out, but it get better and better when improving the amp.

Do not forget the source, either. Using 128kbps MP3 will sound terrible, and the best phones will not cure that (actually, bad phones may sound better, because they mask the terrible sound ).

I posted that message before I read your original message.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

Thanks cribeiro. Yeah, I checked the Sennheiser technical data again, I forget where I got 32ohms from, sometimes tech specs get pulled from different conditions I think but never mind. I'm a little surprised that the distortion is from the amp end, it just feels to me like the drivers are being overdriven, as if they were being crinkled like rice paper. If they were underpowered I'd just expect a lack of volume or brilliance. Most music is fine but sharp beats and those movie explosions just "crinkle" up.

Regarding my interest in closed headphones, I can have the HD650 at a volume prior to distortion and cover the grilles with my hands to enclose that bass in, but that's not a practical permanent solution.

If the Woo Audio WA3 is a budget solution, then I'm downgrading my budget requirement to "extreme cheapskate budget".

Do not crank up the volume with your present amp! It is distortion from the amp end, and it can damage your headphones. It is known as clipping, the amp cannot reproduce the full dynamic swing and "cuts out" the peaks, resulting in a square-form wave which is a very tough job for the amp and speakers to reproduce. Your description matches this phenomenon.

You should not cover the grills, the headphone is not designed to work like that. I know it is an old trick to enhance bass, I used to do it with my cheap headphones when I was a kid. A closed headphone is designed in a different way (and presents much more problems, BTW) and will sound exactly as bad if not driven properly.

By covering the grills, you are actually distorting the sound, but you can only realize if you have proper amplification.

Sorry, I thought you were ready to spend some generous amount of money You know, these things escalate.... The WA3, even if not the best, it is an excellent amp. You can get also very good amps for less, but the HD650 will sound accordingly to the quality of the amp (and source, of course), from very bad to audiophile heaven. If I have time, I will try and search some suggestions for you.

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

I posted that message before I read your original message.

Sorry mate.

[Hawkins85]

Cheers. I could get the Creek-OBH-11 (with OBH-UNI power supply) for £95, if I can ascertain this would at least equal the quality & high volume of my existing amplifier but without the clipping on those extremities, the problem I am concerned with would be solved.

Alternatively, I know closed headphones have limited acoustic capabilities compared to open designs but within the limitations of my existing setup, I'm convinced I'm having to overcompensate the volume because the bass I need is being diffused outward through those grilles and that the problem would at least also be able to solved by using a closed design with the existing amp at lower volume, but of course this would be less preferable than if a dedicated headphone amp could solve it on open design reference class headphones. There are some really old closed headphones I have around here somewhere, they're pretty dull sonically but at least there's little trouble feeling the bass on them. I'll have to try them again and listen to how well they handle "The Matrix".

Sources include CD>Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio/SACD/DVD-Audio. Though sadly I don't exactly have a lot of SACD/DVD-Audio titles due to lack of popularity with both formats.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

Cheers. I could get the Creek-OBH-11 (with OBH-UNI power supply) for £95, if I can ascertain this would at least equal the quality & high volume of my existing amplifier but without the clipping on those extremities, the problem I am concerned with would be solved.

Alternatively, I know closed headphones have limited acoustic capabilities compared to open designs but within the limitations of my existing setup, I'm convinced I'm having to overcompensate the volume because the bass I need is being diffused outward through those grilles and that the problem would at least also be able to solved by using a closed design with the existing amp at lower volume, but of course this would be less preferable than if a dedicated headphone amp could solve it on open design reference class headphones. There are some really old closed headphones I have around here somewhere, they're pretty dull sonically but at least there's little trouble feeling the bass on them. I'll have to try them again and listen to how well they handle "The Matrix".

Sources include CD>Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio/SACD/DVD-Audio. Though sadly I don't exactly have a lot of SACD/DVD-Audio titles due to lack of popularity with both formats.

Think about a loudspeaker. They have a cabinet, which is braced and damped to avoid vibrations, so that all the sound you hear comes from the driver (and reflex port, if present) in a clean and undistorted way.
If you plug a poor amplifier, it will sound terrible, right? In principle, you could remove the damping materials and internal bracing, but nobody does... If you did that, the loudspeaker would vibrate and add up to the sound. Maybe resulting in a louder bass. The problem is that, even although louder, the sound will be poorer, because those vibrations are distortions of the original sound, that is why they have to be damped.

The same happens with your headphones. "Closing" them adds bass to the sound, but not sound quality. It is like breaking a leg and taking loads of pain killers so that you can keep walking.

A good closed headphone will work like the loudspeaker: the sound that in an open design leaks out needs to be damped. It is not used (AFAIK) to add to the sound, because it would distort it. Thus, if you still use poor or underdimensioned amplification, you will not get rid of the problem. If the closed headphones you have sound fuller in the bass, is only because they demand less from the amplification, not because they are closed.

So don't think that the bass you need is been leaked out, that is a misconception: the bass you need is being distorted by the amp, which cannot cope with it.

Regarding amplifiers for your HD650, I cannot tell you much first-hand information. I have used the headphone out of my Azur 640A, a Corda Aria, a Corda Porta II and a Woo Audio WA2. All of them drove them well, with the Azur having enough power but little bass control, the Aria having control, but lacking "emotion" (), the Porta having control and enough power, but not "finesse" () and the Woo having everything you could ask for. I guess the Creek will have enough power to drive them to high levels without distortion (like the Porta did), but I cannot say much about its sound quality. It should be better than your present solution, though.

If you want to get more from your money, maybe you should look into the second hand market, so that you can afford a 500 euro amp for 250 euro.

And if you want to get a taste of what good amplification can do, ask your local dealer if you can test your headphones with a decent amp (good stereo amps have also a decent headphone out, my Azur 640A for example, had loads of bass, maybe not fully controlled, but never clipping).

[TameRacingDriver]

To be honest, I wouldnt bother with the Creek. From what I know of it, its not a particularly great headphone amp - it was a budget amp from a time when headphone amps were pretty much a relatively new concept, so its now a very old design of what was never a great amp even in its time. It has a high output impedance and the likely result is an overly warm, thick sound with the Sennheiser HD650.

From what I have read, the Darkvoice amplifiers (which are available on ebay) are pretty much the best match for the HD650 at anything you would consider to be a reasonable cost, you should be able to pick up one of those for less than a couple of hundred notes. They supposedly have a good synergy with the HD650.

Personally I wasnt a fan of the HD650, but one thing you can't accuse them of, if they are driven properly is lacking bass.

Alternatively, if you dont want to spend much money, then you could sell them and maybe go for the aforementioned DT770 which will provide significantly more bass than the 650 regardless of amplification.

Depends what you want really.

[Hawkins85]

Thanks, I'll drop the Creek from my options. Haven't looked at the "Darkvoice" before on eBay but they have some interesting external casing. I'm looking at the "Figaro" (£110 imported from China). I'd prefer secure shipping from within the UK though. There was a Headsave Classic amp listed on eBay but the seller pulled the auction.

Closed headphone purchases are on reserve until I get the Sennheiser pair properly driven. I've been assured high levels of undistorted bass with the Sennheisers & proper amplification but if I don't feel it then, within reasonable volume levels, I'll have to isolate the bass frequencies with a good closed pair. I do realise this skews sound quality for more bass perception. I'm keeping interest in second hand Denon AH-D2000 headphones, a closed design with the benefits of an open one apparently. I'm still interested in the DT770 but they would likely complement the Sennheisers rather than replace them, the Denon's perhaps could though. The priority being on getting the HD650 properly driven first.

[Hawkins85]

I'm also thinking of sticking to solid state amps over tubed, personal preference.

[TameRacingDriver]

I cant remember which particular model but one of the "Little Dot" amps is a solid state (some are tubed) and is touted as having a good synergy with the HD650.

[Hawkins85]

Okay, I went for a White Noise Audio MKII headphone amp with Cascode power supply, total of £120, so I'll be waiting for delivery of that. Here's hoping for a noticeable improvement.

[Hawkins85]

Hmmmmmmm.

Maybe I'm missing something here but I've got the White Noise Audio MK II amp (a fairly reputable custom project) and I'm thinking at the moment on early first impressions, with my headphones..

..a rather large step back.

Thinking of Spinal Tap's scale, in pre-distortion volume, my Sony integrated goes up to 8, I was hoping this would take me up to at least 10..but it only goes up to 7. It's just too darn quiet at maximum volume, it can't even reach the explosive levels where it would normally distort. I don't want to rely on those CDs where the volume levels are maxed out in sacrifice of their dynamic range. I don't think I can fault the sound quality though, detailed yet smoothes the jagged digital edges off the top compared to the analytical razor that is the Sony. I'm thinking I should have got an Audiolab 8000A, that goes up to 9, impressive volume and emotion, still some distortion but the closest solution I'd know I could settle for.

Tested with: Matrix Reloaded HD-DVD (Dolby TrueHD), Blade Runner soundtrack and Saliva: Every Six Seconds CD-Audio.

Are my Sennheisers just too difficult to drive?

My options:
1. Get the Audiolab 8000A, sell the WNA.
2. Get new, easier to drive headphones, sell the Sennheiser HD650.
3. See if I can eventually settle on mild listening with no blast, no fireworks, no rumble, no impact.
4. Find out I need a pre-amp or other additional kit.

[TameRacingDriver]

Hmm, I've not personally heard the WNA amp, but it was compared with amp that I do use on this thread:-

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f14/n-...oughts-109128/

The impression I get is that listening to some HD650 might be quite boring on this amp. I had the HD650 myself, and as you can see from this comparison, the ANT Amber is a notably more lively amp, and yet despite that, I still didnt think the HD650 sounded all that impressive even from the more lively ANT, so I can only imagine the problem is exacerbated on a less powerful performer.

That said, I am MUCH happier with their little brothers (HD600), which genuinely do give a great sound.

I'm not sure what to recommend really though. I mean, amps can and do make a difference, but its quite possible that you also might not get on with the HD650 (I know I didnt). That said, you may actually find a change of headphone, and even something that *seems* to be a downgrade on paper might prove to be more enjoyable.

You know, I am actually going to recommend that you take your amp down to a Pro-Audio shop that sells the Beyerdynamic DT150 and try those. They are ugly brutes for sure, but they are decently cheap, indestructable, and have a highly underrated sound, with great bass and probably wont be so demanding as the HD650. Try those and see what you think, because I have a feeling you might just like them, and if you do then you could sell the HD650 and/or the amp (if it works OK with the audiolab) and you'd actually be in profit for something you enjoyed using more.

And just to show you that I really mean it when I say a downgrade can often be more satisfying, I'd have to say that I always personally enjoyed my Beyerdynamic DT531 (which cost me £60) considerably more than a lot of headphones that cost twice or even three or four times the cost! (Not that those particular phones would be an option for you as they are discontinued and I dont think they would be what you are looking for).

Seriously, give the DT150 a blast and see what you think. If I didnt have my HD600 and liked them so much, or even if for whatever reason I needed a closed phone, these would be top of my list without a shadow of a doubt.

[Hawkins85]

Dug out my previous headphones from storage, the Philips SBC HP840 (40ohms), now guess which pair sound better...

The Philips give me that little extra volume and thus a little more impact. The backing of the cups aren't quite as "open" as the Sennheisers so some extra resonation may attribute this difference. On a side note there's actually very little real appreciable quality difference between the HP840 & the HD650 to my ears (consider the price difference of £30 & the £190 I paid for the Sennheisers) but the Senns may still be being significantly underdriven, the headphone amp market seems relatively overlooked, small & confusing.

I'd say it's very nearly there with the Philips & WNA. I could still do with more overhead on the volume of the WNA, maybe some other headphones like 32ohm Grado's might just pinch it but I'm leaning towards option 1 - swapping the WNA amp for a 8000A for use with the Senns.

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

Seriously, give the DT150 a blast and see what you think.

I'll look into them, if I'm going to use anything with this WNA it seems I should keep the impedance below 32.

[StevieDvd]

You should check what gain the WNA is set for. If set at the normal gain you should be able to get at least 12 on the spinal scale.

If it's been set for a set of overly sensitive headphones (or even iems) then the gain may just be too low for hard to drive headphones.

Both the Ant Amber and the WNA should make the Senn 600 or 650 cans loud enough to cause your ears to fall off.

Going up in amp quality will improve the sound somewhat but you don't need to spend a lot to get decent volume without distortion.

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by StevieDvd

You should check what gain the WNA is set for. If set at the normal gain you should be able to get at least 12 on the spinal scale.

Hmm, something I can switch internally? I can take off the cover but I can't pick up a soldering iron.

[Hawkins85]

I'm reading through the construction manual here, which says the standard value of the gain is "4.3" and the previous owner of the amp has not indicated any modification of the amp.

This affects volume right? There's a large gap between impedances of the 40ohm Philips and the 300ohm Senns but the volume difference is still relatively small.

[Hawkins85]

Sold the WNA, somebody else will do better with that. I'm thinking of going for an Audiolab 8000A then (I think the revision with the gold plated contacts is a safe option, avoiding the models with broken/breakable contacts) unless anybody has alternative suggestions for integrated amplifiers with reputable headphone outputs (non clipping at high volumes basically). Benefits include improving upon my Sony's main speaker output too. I'm not sure if enough awareness is being brought to amplifiers with decent or acceptable headphone support, it's been hard trying to find a comprehensive compilation or source of suggestions. I'm thinking about the concept of used int. amps that can be fetched for under £150 used and still compare well to ded. head amps, there may be specific old amps going for £30 with excellent headphone drive for all I know.

Regarding headphone options, I still ultimately have a tight grasp on my accustomed Senns, I may put a hold on headphone considerations (namely Beyer's DT770 80ohms & Denon's DH-A2000 being at the top of the list).

At the moment, anybody else with a budget who might be looking for an answer to the question this thread is asking (decent headphone drive for cinematic listening levels), the Audiolab 8000A may be the ~90% solution.

[TameRacingDriver]

As said before by StevieDVD, you really want an amp with high gain if you are going for the really loud volume levels. Any decent amp should not clip. That said, on movies with my HD600s, my ANT Amber needs to be turned almost all of the way up sometimes, but it doesnt clip, and I always have stop slightly short of the vMAX as they nearly make my ears bleed at that volume, yet I wouldnt class that amp as a "high gain amp".

Nevertheless, get yourself registered on headfi and ask that question on their forums, there are a lot more people with experience on there about the stuff you want to know than there will be on here - there are a few knowledgable people on here, but we cant all hope to have tried every combination of equipment out there, and thats where the dedicated forums come in to play...

That said, you might be happy using an integrated amp as a headphone amp. Certainly I was happy for a long while using a Rotel with certain headphones.

Also it really sounds to me like you want closed headphones for the more resonant, present bass performance some of them can offer. Dont think that going for low impedance headphones is neccesarily going to solve all your problems - high impedance phones can produce sound pressure levels just as loud, its just a case of having the voltage and gain to do it. Also, for movie listening I'd wipe Grados off your list completely. From what I've heard of those, they would be bottom of my list for movies, as they essentially have no soundstage to speak of, and the bass on all but the very top end models does not go all that deep.

[Hawkins85]

I've been through a few threads at Head-Fi, I might drop a thread on integrated amps in the middle of the dedicated amps board

I wish there were more specifications published for headphone gain etc.

Latest find, just discovered about this soft clipping feature that NAD amps incorporate. Sounds like a bandage I'm sure but at least "shaping" any clipping distortion will save my drivers and ears some pain.

[Hawkins85]

I've been trying to understand a bit on how impedance affects quality in different setups...now I've read through a post you^ made two years back (A note for those who ask about headphones and amps #10) and I think I might be starting to get a handle on it...

My Philips sounded great on the WNA, then, putting them back on the Sony, they were muddy again. My Senns seemed good on the WNA but simply lacked volume. My Senns go loud on the Sony and improve upon the Philips here but clip. Now, going by your example, I think I understand a significant benefit of the Senns being 300ohms, if only with an integrated amp.

I'm assuming the Sony amp is using a simple resistor configuration, add the impedance of that to the Senn's 300ohms and there's little difference between the two impedances meaning little degradation of the sound, whereas with the Philips (40ohms) there's a large difference, hence the mud.

And now please forgive me if the following conclusions are the worst examples of my understanding yet but might I conclude that:

1. Using other lower impedance headphones such as my aforementioned options may end up significantly worse off than the Senns should I use them with the Sony or a\other resistor based output because of large impedance differences.

And this may be a real stretch of imagination:

2. A lower rated speaker output of an integrated amplifier will mean less resistance is required on the headphone output potentially meaning a smaller difference with the 300ohm Senns hence even less sound distortion from what should be (however I can't say that it will fix any clipping at high volume or even make it worse). A higher powered amp may go in the opposite direction should it use a resistor with a very high impedance to get those levels safe for headphone output.



Thanks for all the input thus far everybody.