Closed Headphones & Headphone Amps

[Hawkins85]

Hi,
I have had the Sennheiser HD650 headphones and the Sony TAFE370 amplifier for years. The headphones sound fairly good for "reference class" but I find the bass lacks power or perhaps more accurately, too much escapes through the open grille design. Turning up the volume just distorts it.

I'd like to try something new, I'm not looking for anything to replace the HD650 headphones, but I'd appreciate some recommendations on some decent full-sized closed type headphones, let's say at a max budget of £150. They would likely be relied on for metal music & explosions.

And if the HD650 headphones take a maximum input of 500mW, would a set that can take in over 1000mW reduce distortion?

Plus, have I been missing out by not using a special headphone amplifier? I'm not sure how much attention has been given to the design of the headphone output on my Sony amp. Could my situation with the HD650 even be improved by a headphone amplifier? I'd be interested in specific recommendations (tube & solid state).

Thanks!

[Hawkins85]

The headphone output of the Sony TAFE370 is rated at 5 mW (at 8 ohms) if that information helps make a comparable stand against expensive dedicated headphone amplifiers.

I'm looking at the Creek OBH-11 plus OBH-UNI power supply which I should be able to get for a total of £95, if that is a recommended amp over the existing Sony. I want to prioritise getting ideal amplification sorted before getting bassier headphones.

[Tautitan]

Hi

Can't help with the amplifier problem but I can recommend the Beyerdynamic DT770Pro headphones; they are closed and have noticeably more bass than others I have tried.

[Hawkins85]

Thanks, they look interesting and apparently they really do need some powerful dedicated headphone amping. Never really been aware of Beyerdynamic before. I'll keep them under high consideration.

[Tautitan]

They are a great set of 'phones and they won't be provided with enough power through anything like onboard sound or an MP3 player without amping but once you have a decent headphone amp hooked up to them they are lovely.

[Hawkins85]

Could anybody help me with a simple explanation to understand the difference between impedance ratings on headphones? The Sennheiser HD650 phones are rated at 32ohms whilst the Beyerdynamic DT770 pair is rated at 250ohms. I've looked at a few complicated guides and all I can seem to discern is that 32ohms is easier to drive resulting in higher volumes whilst 250ohms would be better at resisting against overload damage.

[cribeiro]

The Sennheiser HD650 need good amplification, that's where your problem lies, it does not have anything to do with the open design. I have used these with a high-end amplifier (Woo Audio WA2), and I tell you that you can go very loud without distortion, it almost aches. The distortion you hear comes from the amp, not from the headphones (unless they area faulty!).

Closed headphones is not the solution to your problem. If you want to invest money, buy a dedicated amp. I recommend the Woo Audio WA3, for a "budget" solution. I generally found that my HD650 sounded always better with tubed amps.

With the right amp, the HD650 will deliver loads of controlled, even and deep bass.

BTW, the HD650 are 300 Ohm! They are a difficult load, but others (like Grados), being 32 Ohm, also benefit from an amp because they draw more current (if I understood this right). Forget about specs, you have an audio gem, just need the right amp!

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by Tautitan

They are a great set of 'phones and they won't be provided with enough power through anything like onboard sound or an MP3 player without amping but once you have a decent headphone amp hooked up to them they are lovely.

I'm interested in any examples of a decent headphone amp. My integrated stereo amplifier seems fine with my HD650 except for the fuzzout of the bass. All my needs might've been solved if the HD650 happened to be a closed design. I just don't know if a dedicated headphone amp will open a whole new world of envelopment, I don't know if that world exists because I haven't been there.

I noticed you have an 80ohms version of the Beyer set, so I might look around for them. Until someone corrects my current understanding of impedance I'd probably want to get as close to 32ohms as possible.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

I'm interested in any examples of a decent headphone amp. My integrated stereo amplifier seems fine with my HD650 except for the fuzzout of the bass. All my needs might've been solved if the HD650 happened to be a closed design. I just don't know if a dedicated headphone amp will open a whole new world of envelopment, I don't know if that world exists because I haven't been there.

I noticed you have an 80ohms version of the Beyer set, so I might look around for them. Until someone corrects my current understanding of impedance I'd probably want to get as close to 32ohms as possible.

I repeat, it is not a flaw of the open design, and a closed designed will not be better if you still use poor amplification.

And yes, a dedicated headphone amp (good ones are not cheap, though...) will open a whole new world of envelopment. I have gone through several amplifications with my HD650, and it sounds ok even out of my laptop's headphone out, but it get better and better when improving the amp.

Do not forget the source, either. Using 128kbps MP3 will sound terrible, and the best phones will not cure that (actually, bad phones may sound better, because they mask the terrible sound ).

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by cribeiro

The Sennheiser HD650 need good amplification, that's where your problem lies, it does not have anything to do with the open design. I have used these with a high-end amplifier (Woo Audio WA2), and I tell you that you can go very loud without distortion, it almost aches. The distortion you hear comes from the amp, not from the headphones (unless they area faulty!).

Closed headphones is not the solution to your problem. If you want to invest money, buy a dedicated amp. I recommend the Woo Audio WA3, for a "budget" solution. I generally found that my HD650 sounded always better with tubed amps.

With the right amp, the HD650 will deliver loads of controlled, even and deep bass.

BTW, the HD650 are 300 Ohm! They are a difficult load, but others (like Grados), being 32 Ohm, also benefit from an amp because they draw more current (if I understood this right). Forget about specs, you have an audio gem, just need the right amp!

Thanks cribeiro. Yeah, I checked the Sennheiser technical data again, I forget where I got 32ohms from, sometimes tech specs get pulled from different conditions I think but never mind. I'm a little surprised that the distortion is from the amp end, it just feels to me like the drivers are being overdriven, as if they were being crinkled like rice paper. If they were underpowered I'd just expect a lack of volume or brilliance. Most music is fine but sharp beats and those movie explosions just "crinkle" up.

Regarding my interest in closed headphones, I can have the HD650 at a volume prior to distortion and cover the grilles with my hands to enclose that bass in, but that's not a practical permanent solution.

If the Woo Audio WA3 is a budget solution, then I'm downgrading my budget requirement to "extreme cheapskate budget".

[Hawkins85]

Originally Posted by cribeiro

I repeat, it is not a flaw of the open design, and a closed designed will not be better if you still use poor amplification.

And yes, a dedicated headphone amp (good ones are not cheap, though...) will open a whole new world of envelopment. I have gone through several amplifications with my HD650, and it sounds ok even out of my laptop's headphone out, but it get better and better when improving the amp.

Do not forget the source, either. Using 128kbps MP3 will sound terrible, and the best phones will not cure that (actually, bad phones may sound better, because they mask the terrible sound ).

I posted that message before I read your original message.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

Thanks cribeiro. Yeah, I checked the Sennheiser technical data again, I forget where I got 32ohms from, sometimes tech specs get pulled from different conditions I think but never mind. I'm a little surprised that the distortion is from the amp end, it just feels to me like the drivers are being overdriven, as if they were being crinkled like rice paper. If they were underpowered I'd just expect a lack of volume or brilliance. Most music is fine but sharp beats and those movie explosions just "crinkle" up.

Regarding my interest in closed headphones, I can have the HD650 at a volume prior to distortion and cover the grilles with my hands to enclose that bass in, but that's not a practical permanent solution.

If the Woo Audio WA3 is a budget solution, then I'm downgrading my budget requirement to "extreme cheapskate budget".

Do not crank up the volume with your present amp! It is distortion from the amp end, and it can damage your headphones. It is known as clipping, the amp cannot reproduce the full dynamic swing and "cuts out" the peaks, resulting in a square-form wave which is a very tough job for the amp and speakers to reproduce. Your description matches this phenomenon.

You should not cover the grills, the headphone is not designed to work like that. I know it is an old trick to enhance bass, I used to do it with my cheap headphones when I was a kid. A closed headphone is designed in a different way (and presents much more problems, BTW) and will sound exactly as bad if not driven properly.

By covering the grills, you are actually distorting the sound, but you can only realize if you have proper amplification.

Sorry, I thought you were ready to spend some generous amount of money You know, these things escalate.... The WA3, even if not the best, it is an excellent amp. You can get also very good amps for less, but the HD650 will sound accordingly to the quality of the amp (and source, of course), from very bad to audiophile heaven. If I have time, I will try and search some suggestions for you.

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

I posted that message before I read your original message.

Sorry mate.

[Hawkins85]

Cheers. I could get the Creek-OBH-11 (with OBH-UNI power supply) for £95, if I can ascertain this would at least equal the quality & high volume of my existing amplifier but without the clipping on those extremities, the problem I am concerned with would be solved.

Alternatively, I know closed headphones have limited acoustic capabilities compared to open designs but within the limitations of my existing setup, I'm convinced I'm having to overcompensate the volume because the bass I need is being diffused outward through those grilles and that the problem would at least also be able to solved by using a closed design with the existing amp at lower volume, but of course this would be less preferable than if a dedicated headphone amp could solve it on open design reference class headphones. There are some really old closed headphones I have around here somewhere, they're pretty dull sonically but at least there's little trouble feeling the bass on them. I'll have to try them again and listen to how well they handle "The Matrix".

Sources include CD>Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio/SACD/DVD-Audio. Though sadly I don't exactly have a lot of SACD/DVD-Audio titles due to lack of popularity with both formats.

[cribeiro]

Originally Posted by Hawkins85

Cheers. I could get the Creek-OBH-11 (with OBH-UNI power supply) for £95, if I can ascertain this would at least equal the quality & high volume of my existing amplifier but without the clipping on those extremities, the problem I am concerned with would be solved.

Alternatively, I know closed headphones have limited acoustic capabilities compared to open designs but within the limitations of my existing setup, I'm convinced I'm having to overcompensate the volume because the bass I need is being diffused outward through those grilles and that the problem would at least also be able to solved by using a closed design with the existing amp at lower volume, but of course this would be less preferable than if a dedicated headphone amp could solve it on open design reference class headphones. There are some really old closed headphones I have around here somewhere, they're pretty dull sonically but at least there's little trouble feeling the bass on them. I'll have to try them again and listen to how well they handle "The Matrix".

Sources include CD>Dolby True HD/DTS Master Audio/SACD/DVD-Audio. Though sadly I don't exactly have a lot of SACD/DVD-Audio titles due to lack of popularity with both formats.

Think about a loudspeaker. They have a cabinet, which is braced and damped to avoid vibrations, so that all the sound you hear comes from the driver (and reflex port, if present) in a clean and undistorted way.
If you plug a poor amplifier, it will sound terrible, right? In principle, you could remove the damping materials and internal bracing, but nobody does... If you did that, the loudspeaker would vibrate and add up to the sound. Maybe resulting in a louder bass. The problem is that, even although louder, the sound will be poorer, because those vibrations are distortions of the original sound, that is why they have to be damped.

The same happens with your headphones. "Closing" them adds bass to the sound, but not sound quality. It is like breaking a leg and taking loads of pain killers so that you can keep walking.

A good closed headphone will work like the loudspeaker: the sound that in an open design leaks out needs to be damped. It is not used (AFAIK) to add to the sound, because it would distort it. Thus, if you still use poor or underdimensioned amplification, you will not get rid of the problem. If the closed headphones you have sound fuller in the bass, is only because they demand less from the amplification, not because they are closed.

So don't think that the bass you need is been leaked out, that is a misconception: the bass you need is being distorted by the amp, which cannot cope with it.

Regarding amplifiers for your HD650, I cannot tell you much first-hand information. I have used the headphone out of my Azur 640A, a Corda Aria, a Corda Porta II and a Woo Audio WA2. All of them drove them well, with the Azur having enough power but little bass control, the Aria having control, but lacking "emotion" (), the Porta having control and enough power, but not "finesse" () and the Woo having everything you could ask for. I guess the Creek will have enough power to drive them to high levels without distortion (like the Porta did), but I cannot say much about its sound quality. It should be better than your present solution, though.

If you want to get more from your money, maybe you should look into the second hand market, so that you can afford a 500 euro amp for 250 euro.

And if you want to get a taste of what good amplification can do, ask your local dealer if you can test your headphones with a decent amp (good stereo amps have also a decent headphone out, my Azur 640A for example, had loads of bass, maybe not fully controlled, but never clipping).

[pbirkett]

To be honest, I wouldnt bother with the Creek. From what I know of it, its not a particularly great headphone amp - it was a budget amp from a time when headphone amps were pretty much a relatively new concept, so its now a very old design of what was never a great amp even in its time. It has a high output impedance and the likely result is an overly warm, thick sound with the Sennheiser HD650.

From what I have read, the Darkvoice amplifiers (which are available on ebay) are pretty much the best match for the HD650 at anything you would consider to be a reasonable cost, you should be able to pick up one of those for less than a couple of hundred notes. They supposedly have a good synergy with the HD650.

Personally I wasnt a fan of the HD650, but one thing you can't accuse them of, if they are driven properly is lacking bass.

Alternatively, if you dont want to spend much money, then you could sell them and maybe go for the aforementioned DT770 which will provide significantly more bass than the 650 regardless of amplification.

Depends what you want really.