[TameRacingDriver]

Hi all, I posted this on headfi too, but I just wanted to know what some of the headphone fanatics on here think of my somewhat disillusioned musings....

You know what, I've spent probably something in the region of around 8 years in the hobby, give or take, and one thing that I feel like I have never cracked in all of that time is to make my music just as enjoyable to me on headphones as it is on a well chosen pair of speakers.

I have owned dozens of different headphones, and that culminates with my latest purchase a Proline 2500.

The thing is, I think I am finally starting to realise what the problem is after all of these years.

I think its that headphones, or more specifically, mid - high end headphones are perhaps just too revealing. Let me elaborate on that and say that there are a few things going on here. First is that headphones are a compromise from the outset, having drivers placed right near your ears is not a natural presentation, and for me, it does not seem to matter what tricks are performed to try and overcome this, they can improve it, but never quite succeed to my ears. However, that is not a boundary to enjoying music I dont think. This leads me on to the second problem, and its the one I think I have personally. A lot of my music is electronic and trance. Some of it is very well recorded, and that can sound extremely nice on decent headphones. However, a lot of it really isn't that well recorded and I think a lot of headphones are just too matter of fact to really enjoy it, they reveal the flaws all too easily.

Now this is the part that might come as a surprise to a lot of headfiers, but in a headphone history that has involved such headphones as the HD650, DT880, CD3000, DT990, Proline 2500, and other similar tier headphones, the two headphones looking back that I enjoyed the most OVERALL are the Beyer DT531, and the Senn CX300!

Let me explain - the Beyers were what I think of as a kind of hybrid between entry level and more high end tier stuff. They just sounded sweet for everything. Sure, they werent the be-all-end-all in terms of technical ability - they didnt have the fastest or deepest bass, the most extended treble, or the most detail, but they did most things competently and did it without disecting your music and putting it under the microscope. They got across the musical message much better than most to my ears and they just made you forget about hifi, and just enjoy the music. With them, looking back, I rarely worried about slight flaws in the music, but with better equipment I'm always drawn to the flaws in the music. For me, what the 531 did was make well recorded stuff sound about 90% as good as what it can on the high end stuff, but made lesser material sound much more listenable.

The CX300, which to some people is probably quite a poor headphone, again to me, on the music I listen to, it communicates the musical message well. It has powerful, if somewhat boomy bass, and it sounds rather insistent, not particularly smooth or anything like that, but it just to my ear boogies particularly well, without ever sounding particularly high end, and as such, is enjoyable.

In a similar fashion, I am kind of finding a similar problem with my TV. I have a HD ready plasma TV that I use for blu-ray and such like. I now notice technical flaws a lot more in the picture and I am drawn to them in a similar way. When I had my old Sony Wega CRT, almost everything I put on it looked quite good. Again, a really good recording would, to my eyes, look possibly 90% as good as it does on my Plasma TV (a Panasonic Viera) but the lower stuff looked far better on the Sony.

I appreciate that we need to move things forward with audio and visual things, but I just find particularly with music but with a lesser extent also with video, the software we play on it is just not up to scratch, and the equipment we now use is capable of showing us everything, warts and all.

I can now see why I like my speakers because they make everything I play on them sound great, they might not be the very best you can get but they sure do make everything sound enjoyable.

Don't get me wrong, I am more than happy to accept that a lot of folks on here listen to totally different music to me, and that music may well be recorded much better on average than the music I listen to and as such, there is probably a lot more of a reason then to have high end stuff, particularly as said folks probably listen to a lot more music per week than I do. However for me, I am thinking its pointless given my music tastes and habits to have a high end setup, as low end stuff that gets the basics right and doesn't expose flaws is just a lot more suitable for my listening tastes.

As such, I am thinking of going back to a "modest" pair of headphones like the DT531 or similar, and just retire from this game, as I think I am just chasing an impossible dream - its not been for a want of trying, but I genuinely believe that what I want probably isn't attainable.

[coliam]

Interesting post.

I think possibly what you've noticed is that some music is recorded deliberately for listening to on Ipods, TV's, etc
..... or maybe in nightclubs while slightly 'inebriated' , and not intended to be dissected by audiophiles.

When you look too deeply, you're likely to find all sorts of 'anomalies'

If the bulk of what you listen to is recorded in this way, you're conclusion seems reasonable.
For others listening to acoustic music ( and lots of other stuff), a more lifelike reproduction is more desirable and
hence a more revealing system becomes necessary.

Just my 2p

[TameRacingDriver]

Indeed.

On the odd occasion when I listen to "proper" music, I have to admit I dont really notice any of these issues.

The thing what I wonder is though, why is it that my speakers can do the trance and stuff and make it sound so engaging, and yet when asked to do the proper stuff it can do that as well.... yet I've rarely found a headphone that can do the same feat. Like I say I had the DT531 which came closest for me - it made everything sound pretty nice, and even the proper stuff came across quite well, not quite as well as say an HD650 in this case but pretty damn close, and yet for the cheesy pop and stuff the DT531 made the best of it and it also sounded good.

Pity I sold those and they are now discontinued.

I am thinking of getting a second pair of headphones, possibly something cheap that will serve up the thrills for stuff like trance music. I'd say something like an Audio Technica ES7, Beyerdynamic DT440 / 531 (if I can find one again) or maybe even a Koss Porta Pro might do the trick. I tried the Grado SR80 but found it thin and screechy - I need to hear bass as well!

[chippyteaforme]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

Indeed.

On the odd occasion when I listen to "proper" music, I have to admit I dont really notice any of these issues.

The thing what I wonder is though, why is it that my speakers can do the trance and stuff and make it sound so engaging, and yet when asked to do the proper stuff it can do that as well.... yet I've rarely found a headphone that can do the same feat. Like I say I had the DT531 which came closest for me - it made everything sound pretty nice, and even the proper stuff came across quite well, not quite as well as say an HD650 in this case but pretty damn close, and yet for the cheesy pop and stuff the DT531 made the best of it and it also sounded good.

Pity I sold those and they are now discontinued.

I am thinking of getting a second pair of headphones, possibly something cheap that will serve up the thrills for stuff like trance music. I'd say something like an Audio Technica ES7, Beyerdynamic DT440 / 531 (if I can find one again) or maybe even a Koss Porta Pro might do the trick. I tried the Grado SR80 but found it thin and screechy - I need to hear bass as well!

I can't remember if my old DTs were 431 or 440 but I loved them, and did mention in the past that they were the first 'proper' headphones I bought (proper as in 'not bought from Argos'), and that I hadn't really found anything that matched them.

Unfortunately, following a minor mishap (well, OK, I broke one of the earpieces off) I think I threw them in the bin. Mind you I'd modded them by removing the baffles / dampers (well, the foam behind the drivers) and also wire wooled the grilles down to bare metal (the blue was getting a bit chipped).

They were also SOOO easy to drive it was unreal. I didn't find a single device that couldn't drive them.

Given the choice, I'd actually say I wish I'd taken better care of them, and not spent so much upgrading... I've had at least pairs since then (HD595,600,650, DT990 Pro, AKG K701, probably some others)
, with different amps, and I don't feel (at the moment at least) that I've gained anything.

Your best bet for things like the old DT531 would probably be eBay, MAKE SURE YOU INCLUDE INTERNATIONAL SELLERS (specificially Germany), I checked over a few days a couple of months back and there were several sets of DT531 e.t.c. on there, changing hands for very little money (around a tenner a piece).

[TameRacingDriver]

Good idea on searching for international sellers - although i've checked and there are no DT531s anywhere for sale at the moment. If I could have got some for a tenner, it would have been a no brainer!

I know what you mean about not gaining anything. I think if anything, my very modest setup of Beyerdynamic DT531 driven from a soundcard (EMU 0404) and out of an Integrated amplifier (Rotel RA-01) was probably as musically satisfying as any headphone rig i've owned since, for a small fraction of the cost.

[Gadgetcity]

I know where you are coming from with headphones. I swear by my Portapro's on my walkmen but they are a little bass heavy on the main amp. On that I'm running in Sennheiser PX100's. I tried HD485s but I found them less satisfying by comparison (lacked some detail and bass heavy but mushy with slightly less definition).
Nothing has that speaker quality though. Yes, headphones can be accurate but I worked out the two major reasons I prefer speakers.

1) Your whole body "feels" the music. You chest cavity moves with the bass for example.

2) Headphones focus the stereo image inside your head. It is a bit like travel sickness after a while. My brain knows that Freddie Mercury is not singing inside my head but my ears say he is.

These two combined are what is missing and with speakers they combine to put me in front of the sound stage.

The expression "in your face" for something OTT visually equates to "in your head" musically when using headphones. Detailed music like classical orchestral pieces do sound great on headphones, but seem to be 4 inches wide. The speakers make the same track 10 metres wide and several metres deep

I do have a few old tracks which are poorly recorded but the background noise is not offensive from speakers but inside you head on headphones it becomes overpowering.

Thanks for an interesting post - really got me thinking.

[coliam]

Originally Posted by Gadgetcity

............. 1) Your whole body "feels" the music. You chest cavity moves with the bass for example.

2) Headphones focus the stereo image inside your head. It is a bit like travel sickness after a while.
My brain knows that Freddie Mercury is not singing inside my head but my ears say he is.

These two combined are what is missing and with speakers they combine to put me in front of the sound stage.

My first principle of Hi-Fi is that you can never have too much detail. - If detail causes problems, then look elsewhere for the solution.
I've found that these 2 points are improved with better source and amplification.
I would have totally agreed with these points a few months ago, before I built my balanced DAC and headphone amp.
Now, the extra detail resolution and control provided by the balanced system, has turned it around completely.
I doubt I could ever afford, or manage to house, speakers which could do this. (but I'm working on it )

[TameRacingDriver]

As I know you have already seen my other post, its made me realise that perhaps its not that headphones were detailed, just that a lot of them I just didnt like, or were too unforgiving. I now have plenty of detail at my command with the 600 (more than I've heard before out of any of my rigs), but I'm really enjoying the sound a lot more. With the 650 I had before, acoustic music and the like was fine, but harder music like trance was being smothered. This isnt happening now. With the Ultrasone, I felt that they were too "studio" like in their presentation, in other words, they were far too unforgiving of poor source material. Fundamentally very good phones, but ultimately not for me.

[Reano]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

As I know you have already seen my other post, its made me realise that perhaps its not that headphones were detailed, just that a lot of them I just didnt like, or were too unforgiving. I now have plenty of detail at my command with the 600 (more than I've heard before out of any of my rigs), but I'm really enjoying the sound a lot more. With the 650 I had before, acoustic music and the like was fine, but harder music like trance was being smothered. This isnt happening now. With the Ultrasone, I felt that they were too "studio" like in their presentation, in other words, they were far too unforgiving of poor source material. Fundamentally very good phones, but ultimately not for me.

Strange one this I have a few favourites that I just forget that I'm listening and enjoy the music, words or whatever.

Sennheiser HE60, I also now have the Stax Omega 2 with Stax amp (used for senn's too) and these are also fantastic (but have some things I don't like handling wise). I also love my Shure e500 for portable music through the hornet portable amp.

Next then are my RS1 and HD650/AKG701 (I sold the HD600 as I thought the HD650 better kids also use HD650 and AKG's).

But these dont compete (maybe He60 can with stax amp) with vinyl and electrostatic/reasonable speakers.

Speakers (in general) are just better as they also provide the sound pressure that simulate 'feeling' that headphones just can't produce.

[Gadgetcity]

Originally Posted by Reano

Speakers (in general) are just better as they also provide the sound pressure that simulate 'feeling' that headphones just can't produce.

Just what I think. But maybe there are some headphones that can overcome my other issue. I just want the stereo image to be in front of my head instead of in it. I've yet to find a pair of headphones that manage that. The quality of headphones can be astounding but I just get a feeling similar to travel sickness if I listen too long .

I will keep looking though because I just love my music

[coliam]

Originally Posted by Gadgetcity

Just what I think. But maybe there are some headphones that can overcome my other issue. I just want the stereo image to be
in front of my head instead of in it. I've yet to find a pair of headphones that manage that.
The quality of headphones can be astounding but I just get a feeling similar to travel sickness if I listen too long .

I will keep looking though because I just love my music

I don't think you'll ever get that kind of imaging with 'phones, apart from the now-discontinued AKG K100, but with a good source
the sound is much less centralised, so you lose that 'claustrophobic' feel. I suppose it's a consequence of more detail and better control.
At least, this is the (huge) change I noticed when I upgraded my DAC from the TC-7510.

I'm not sure I agree with Reano, though. How can speakers produce sound pressure better than 'phones right next to your ears ?
Especially when speakers are around 90 dB/W/m or less and 'phones are usually >100 dB/W/m.
I agree you don't get the REAL floor-shaking bass, but that's not actually part of the recorded music anyway.

All In my opinion, of course.

[Pecker]

I find that some music lends itself to headphones, typically 'trippy' stuff.

Dark Side of the Moon, Sgt Pepper..., Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating in Space, all sound 'right' on 'phones to me.

Steve W

[Reano]

Originally Posted by coliam

I don't think you'll ever get that kind of imaging with 'phones, apart from the now-discontinued AKG K100, but with a good source
the sound is much less centralised, so you lose that 'claustrophobic' feel. I suppose it's a consequence of more detail and better control.
At least, this is the (huge) change I noticed when I upgraded my DAC from the TC-7510.

I'm not sure I agree with Reano, though. How can speakers produce sound pressure better than 'phones right next to your ears ?
Especially when speakers are around 90 dB/W/m or less and 'phones are usually >100 dB/W/m.
I agree you don't get the REAL floor-shaking bass, but that's not actually part of the recorded music anyway.

All In my opinion, of course.

Believe it or not you actually hear through your body as well ... Deep down bass cannot be 'heard' as the ears are not able to pick it up. It is a series of vibrations the wavelengths being that big that the ears cannot replicate them. I will find the book I got that from (when creating my studio). So real low bass is felt rather than heard. Some of these vibrations are also picked up in the outer ear and translated into sound as well as the bass thats felt. Thats why some over ears can offer better 'overall' sound than in ears.

Next some recorded music is actually floor shaking e.g. the Organ, double bass. Also certain sounds of nature like earthquakes, volcanoes, etc and even some animals make bass sounds that are real deep. Some so deep we can't hear it (e.g. the elephant).

I have two of the 'best' <--- I know, I know what is best? -- headphones in the world the Sennheiser HE60 (AKA baby Orp, HE90 Orpheus supposed to be one of the best..) and the Stax Omega 2 and even these do not compare to good speakers for the overall emotion of the music (yes I know it all depends on source, amp, etc).

I have a very ideal (not one of the better ones Ive seen on here I may add) music/cinema room (not to brag but I guess Im fortunate). It's mains are isolated from the rest of the house. Room has mild treatment for vocals and have all manner of front ends (Linn LP12, Clearaudio, CD, DVD, PS3) and have electrostatic speakers ... (Ok so Im going to far .....). WHat Im saying is I can listen to music form the speakers or headphones in peace and speakers rule for that getting lost in the music. I'm not going to use any of those jargon words.

You all know what I mean when I say lost in the music .... Phew

Headphones are a comprise as are speakers.

If you want to hear the music what would be better than live or having live action but of course that cannot always happen so speakers are for that. If there was some way of carrying speakers around and producing that sound then that would be good but of course that is not practical so we have headphones and so it goes each has some compromise to make.

[coliam]

Originally Posted by Reano

.......You all know what I mean when I say lost in the music .... Phew

LOL

Sounds like you have a good system there....


(I'm only jealous because I now live in a flat and can only use speakers at really low volumes )

[TameRacingDriver]

Well I've got to say I think after a week now with my new HD600s, despite being a "downgrade" on the HD650 i had before, I really do think I have happened upon a pair of cans that doesnt feel like such a compromise.

To be honest, I am bowing out of this hifi game. I have a system which now produces more than acceptable tunes across the board, and frankly I now want to do other things with my life than try and achieve the "perfect" sound which doesnt exist with hifi, like going on holiday for the first time in 15 years.

I now realise that everything is a compromise, and realising this, its a lot easier to be happy.

[coliam]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

Well I've got to say I think after a week now with my new HD600s, despite being a "downgrade" on the HD650 i had before, I really do think I have happened upon a pair of cans that doesnt feel like such a compromise.

To be honest, I am bowing out of this hifi game. I have a system which now produces more than acceptable tunes across the board, and frankly I now want to do other things with my life than try and achieve the "perfect" sound which doesnt exist with hifi, like going on holiday for the first time in 15 years.

I now realise that everything is a compromise, and realising this, its a lot easier to be happy.

Hi Paul,

Yes. I know what you mean. I don't think I'd have much interest if it wasn't for the DIY part. I find the build much more rewarding than the end result, tbh.

I'm starting to get a pile of rarely used expensive boxes .........

But, like you say, I'm really happy with my 580's and I've had them for years. So I don't think I'm really looking for something better, just something else to build.

Have fun anyway, whatever you decide to spend your free time on. There are plenty of other things besides Hi-Fi.

[Reano]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

Well I've got to say I think after a week now with my new HD600s, despite being a "downgrade" on the HD650 i had before, I really do think I have happened upon a pair of cans that doesnt feel like such a compromise.

To be honest, I am bowing out of this hifi game. I have a system which now produces more than acceptable tunes across the board, and frankly I now want to do other things with my life than try and achieve the "perfect" sound which doesnt exist with hifi, like going on holiday for the first time in 15 years.

I now realise that everything is a compromise, and realising this, its a lot easier to be happy.

Hehe. It's a hobby never let it stop you from going on holiday (look at my signature). Always buy secondhand (for the most part) and upgrade in small steps. You'll never get a perfect system but trying to can be fun (If you don't go over board). Don't give up on hi-fi stay in the game .... waiting in long queues at the airport, paying for expensive stuff at overseas shops, the fuss of getting there, ..... You'll be coming back real soon