Help me make my mind up

[pbirkett]

Hi all,

Currently using an ANT Amber and a pair of Senn HD650 in my system, and when using headphones, if the music is well recorded then the reproduction is absolutely stunning, but generally the system is more suited to playing back acoustic or ambient material.

For that reason, I am tempted to keep them anyway...

But, the main staple of my listening diet is trance and techno. Elsewhere, my speakers system, which consists of a Harman Kardon HK6550 and Rega Ela, just does everything right. Its great for the aforementioned acoustic material, but with the trance and techno, it produces real clout at the bottom end and gives it some real drive and energy.

Unfortunately, the headphone rig just does not do so well, preferring instead to sound a little thick and dull, I just feel that the HD650 is not in its element playing trance music that hasn't been well recorded (which is a significant amount of it). If it is recorded well then it sounds much better but still it doesnt have the sheer speed and drive of my speaker system.

Having owned Grado's before I can remember what they sounde dlike even on a more modest system, and I remember them sounding really quite fast and clear, quite raw and energetic.

What I cant make my mind up though is what to do.

My first thought was to buy an SR-80, as it represents something of a bang for buck deal, giving you seemingly a significant proportion of even the likes of the SR-225 for half the price.

But then its got me wondering. Maybe the Senn just isn't my cup of tea, and I could consider selling it, and maybe upgrading to an Alessandro MS-2i.

For those that have not heard of the Alessandro phones, they are based on Grado's sharing the same chassis and design, tuned to sound a little warmer than the Grado.

Now, heres the thing. Grado price-fix over here so we pay in £ what the yanks pay in dollars, and Grado refuse to support headphones that are not in their country of origin, which I think is disgustingly greedy, but being as it is that their headphones are one of the only that offer the type of sound they do, I'll overlook that. Alessandro on the other hand are happy to export their headphones at the original prices...

Thing is, unless I go second hand, I can get an SR80 for around £80 on the internet, but I could get the Alessandro MS-2i which would work out at about £150 if I dont get stung for customs.

Now considering the MS-2i is based on the SR-325i, which in this country will cost you up to £300, you can see its quite the bargain.

However, for their intended use, I'm not sure if the SR-325i / MS-2i might be a little unforgiving of some of the poorer quality material in the same way as the HD650 is, although I can see it being a different type of unforgiving...

So its a case of do I keep the HD650 and get some SR-80 for my trance (and keep the variety of headphones), or sell the HD650 and get the MS-2i...

What would you do ?

[StevieDvd]

I'd suggest keeping the Senns for sure and unless funds were tight I'd go straight for the Alessandro MS2i or the MS1 at a pinch.

[NicolasB]

This is a difficult question to answer. The strength of the HD650 'phones is that they play back the recording with an absolute minimum of colouration and distortion. This is normally a good thing, but in your case it sounds as though you want your headphones to corrupt the signal you're feeding them in order to mask what you perceive as a problem with the original recording.

I guess the first question is: what type of distortion or corruption are you trying to introduce?

I suspect that, rather than experiment with headphones that don't accurately reproduce the signal you feed them, you might be better off with using something that is actually designed to change the signal in the way you want. For example, if you want artificially heavy bass, rather than looking for headphones that emphasise bass, buy a decent graphic equaliser and use it to tweak the signal in whatever way you want.

I think if you've got used to HD650 'phones with a good quality amp you may find SR80s to be far too large a sacrifice in basic sound quality. If you're looking for an alternative try the Sennheiser HD595 (not to my liking, but then I actually like the HD650! ) or the Beyerdynamic DT880. Or, if you really want to splash out, sell both the HD650 and the amp and get a Stax system. However, they aren't exactly cheap.

[pbirkett]

Stevie DVD - I probably will end up going straight to the MS2i after thinking about it, if indeed, I do....

Nicolas B - You might be right about me wanting a headphone that can add some excitement. That said, one thing I would want is a faster more driving bass. That I would have thought is down to the speed of the drivers in your speakers / headphones than anything else, not sure how an EQ would help there, but it is definitely something i've thought about, just not sure how it'd pan out.

One thing I've found with the 650, is that they sound brilliant with good recordings, and a bit flat with poor ones. I think whatever the quality you still need to turn the 650's up really quite loud to bring them to life. I'd be after something that might sound better at a slightly lower volume too.

Ultimately, that means something that can hit hard in the bass and have a clear sound with extended (possibly somewhat bright) treble.

I've not heard the 595 but somehow, reading what i have on headfi, i'm not sure they'd be for me. More clear possibly yes, but still a bit laid back sounding ultimately.

I've tried:-
Beyer DT880 : too bright, harsh, and not enough bass. Very comfy, quite detailed, needs a valve amp for the best results. Has potential to be electrostat like in the right system.
Beyer DT531 : now discontinued, not as good quality as the dt880 but similar sound signature and actually more fun to listen to. More forgiving sound (and less detailed) and more punchy bass by quite a margin.
Beyer DT990 : again too bright. More bass than the dt880 but still not that satisfying at times, less details and less harsh than 880. Same comfort as 880. Somehow it never sounded quite "right" to me.
Goldring DR150 : Too hard and rough sounding, clearly lacked the quality of sound of the other three. No point in comparing really.

Now... I've owned a lot more headphones than these, but not on my present system so i wouldnt like to judge, but my impressions at the time were...

Beyer DT931 : Very bright, very clear, very fast sound. Loads of detail, however the bass was too light and it sounded really thin without a high impedance output (120ohm or greater)
Beyer DT770 : Very bassy and dark sounding compared with many headphones, bass was forceful and loud, but a little boomy and slow with it. Treble still bright, midrange hid.
Grado SR-80 : In terms of absolute quality it didnt seem worth any more than its second hand price, but it WAS a fun sound, with extremely punchy, if not particularly deep bass, a very bright and dynamic sound, enjoyable but not refined (or comfortable)
Sony MDR-CD1700 : Very similar to the DT931 to be honest. Not much more to say about it. Slightly less harsh though especially on low impedance outputs (ie < 120 ohm). Very easy to drive.
Sony MDR-CD3000 : Very similar to the CD1700. Just slightly more detail and bass, but i'm talking a slight difference. Look much better and are more comfortable than CD1700 (and almost any other headphone TBH). More coloured sounding than CD1700 (almost kind of plasticy, subtle effect).
Sennheiser HD580 : Quite similar to the HD650, but possibly a touch clearer and less warm. The bass is punchy but not as full as 650. The 650 has a much warmer midrange and treble.
AKG K240 Studio : Wasnt keen on this, very closed in sounding, I just wasnt keen on it at all. Not as bassy or muscular sounding as i was led to believe.
AKG K271 Studio : Fully closed version of the above. Still not impressed.

So you'd think that i would know what i wanted by now, wouldnt you? I think what I want is a compliment. But what? Then again with my cash the way it is right now, not really sure if I can stretch to anything, which is why I was asking about the likes of the MS-2i which is virtually a straight swap to all intents and purposes.

[cribeiro]

AKG 701? Raw, neutral, clinical... Those are the usual adjectives for this headphone, AFAIK, and it seems to be what you are looking for (did not listen to them myself!). I believe the treble will be more present, and the deepest bass will not be so overwhelming, thus giving the impression of a faster and tighter bass. But this is just a guess based on other's comments.

Not cheap, though... But are supposed to be on par with the HD650, so you could just replace them.

Even after only getting a "taste" of a headphone like the HD650, I wouldn't go a step downwards, let alone after owning it...

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

That said, one thing I would want is a faster more driving bass. That I would have thought is down to the speed of the drivers in your speakers / headphones than anything else, not sure how an EQ would help there, but it is definitely something i've thought about, just not sure how it'd pan out.

If the driver is physically moving too slowly, that will create actual distortion of the signal. The notion of "slow" bass is rather an odd one, IMO. With speakers what is described as "slow bass" is usually the result of poor integration between the different drivers, or something wrong with the cross-over between satellite speakers and a subwoofer; either way, the effect is something of an illusion in that making the cone move faster won't actually help - that just makes the sound higher-pitched.

I don't know that there really is a solution, here. You seem to be expecting headphones to be able to magically convert a poor quality recording into a good quality one, and I just don't see how that's possible. What is it that they are supposed to do to the sound? Add bass? Add treble? Increase the Total Harmonic Distortion? I don't see that any 'phones, however good, are going to be able to do better than reproduce the recording accurately. If you don't like that, change the recording.

If you really feel the HD650s lack "punch" I suppose it's conceivable that you would benefit from upgrading the headphone amp, but the model you have is already pretty good. (Certainly, with speakers, a lack of precision in the bass can be due to lack of current coming from the power amp, and a heavier-duty amp will "tighten up" the bass response and make it better controlled; this is mostly to do with the ability to stop the cone moving quickly). It's possible that a higher-quality power-supply for the amp might help, I suppose: fluctuations in the amp's input voltage tend to affect bass more than treble.

Or I suppose you could try one of these (as once recommended to me by a guy who at that time was chief scientist at a well-known loudspeaker manufacturer):

http://www.aphex.com/204.htm

And, as I said before, you should probably check out a Stax system.

[pbirkett]

Nicolas, that aural exciter actually looks very interesting, i've never come across such a thing before, and it appears as though on the face of it like it may improve matters.

I can see how you find it hard to fathom out what I want. I guess I want an "exagerrated" sound for certain genres, something that a Senn HD650 wont do. I must admit, if I stick something on that has been well recorded on then I have no complaints whatsoever, it sounds amazing. But a lot of stuff I have is not that well recorded and it can sometimes sound a little flat. Thats why i thought a grado might give me that exagerrated sound, but then again, one thing that slightly annoyed me about it last time was how much it sounded "in your head", which the Senn's dont seem to be troubled with.

Regarding stax, i once listened to a "Basic" system some time ago and found it rather clinical and lacking punch, but for sure it would have control that almost all dynamics will lack.

[Broosta]

It seems to me that your criticisms of the cans you,ve tried are mainly that they lack bass bar the Dt770, which has a 'lazy' bass. Am I correct in thinking you have not tried the DT770 with your current amp? If so it may be the answer - as you seem to want a DT770 with a tighter bass. It will be a step down from the HD650 but at least they will hide some of the quality issues you have complained that the HD650s reveal.
So my money is on DT770 @ £83 delivered and if no good then always going to be able to sell on.
And I'd keep the HD650s if money permits.

...and maybe later if money became less of a problem you could get the DT770s Darthed .

[pbirkett]

Right, update.

I got one of these.

Its a Behringer SX3040 Sonic Exciter. Its a similar unit to what NicholasB mentioned (the Aphex).

Yes, I feel it has improved the sound across the board.

The thing is, I still feel the HD650s are lagging behind my Rega Ela speakers (which cost me half as much as the HD650), they still sound slow, and somewhat boring. They seem to lack the clarity of the Rega Elas. The Regas just sound MUCH better to my ears.

Somehow I dont think these HD650's are for me. This is now the third time I've had them, with three different amps and three different sources and they have never sounded exciting.

I dont think the 770 would work out either. I've had that before, and I just dont think its what i am looking for.

So I shall ponder where to go from here.