do i need a headphone amplifier?

[russellhclark]

At the moment I have a marantz cd CD67SE cd player, Onkyo T8SV828THX amplifier, Sennheiser HD650 headphones and average Tannoy speakers and a Pioneer dvd player. I now live in a flat and so use headphones most of the time to watch sky tv, dvds and listen to cds. This equipment, especially the speakers seems to be surplus to requirements, and I'm thinking of getting a decent DVD player with good CD sound and a dedicated headphone amp, but I'm not sure what way to go. Because I can't be bothered to structure a coherent paragraph I will list the issues:

1. I cannot hear any real difference between the cd67se headphone jack and the onkyo headphone jack, so wouldn't claim to be a hardcore audiophile who wants to spend lots of money (£600ish). I do appreciate the HD650s sound good though.
2. The new headphone amp will need at least 2 inputs - one for dvd/cd and one for sky tv. I have found the Graham Slee Solo and Pro-ject Head Box SE have this faciilty. Can anyone recommend these or any others? Slee is twice the cost of Pro-ject so will I notice any significant difference? Will leaving the Slee on all the time constitute a fire hazard? Is this really necessary?
3. Will I notice any difference from my £1,300 onkyo amp? (Should I just get a very good dvd/cd player such as Arcan DV78, Denon 2910 etc.)
4. Should I spend £400 on a dvd player and £150 on an amp or £100 on a dvd player and £400 on an amp - which would give the best result?
5. Shall I just keep what I've got?

As you can see my mind is rather scrambled with the possible and best configurations and I would appreciate any comments regarding any and all aspects.

[doctorjuggles]

The answer to your question is a little more complicated than yes or no, buy this or buy that.
The way I see things, you have a couple of issues:

Firstly, if would be easy to say you should just listen to it as you are now if it was just for TV and DVDs. The receiver will do an excellent job with that, no problem.
The fact that you listen to music as well adds another dimension to the proceedings.
Much as any audiophile would shudder at the thought of your Onkyo amplifier (as fine an AV amp as it is) driving a set of Thiel or Dynaudio speakers, so the same applies to good headphones. Your Onkyo will perform okay (as you've already experienced) but for real resolve, accuracy and pure stereo performance, the headphone amplifier is the obvious choice. It's designed with one purpose in mind. That's its job and it does it well. Well, at least if it's a good one, that is.
AV amps are designed to do many other things. I'm betting that the headphone output is low on the designers list. And he still has to work in a passable 'surround sound' capability into that. So it's unfair to expect peak performance. And to be fair to the Onkyo, I'd bet that movies sound better out of that than they would out of a regular stereo headphone amp.
But if you want pure stereo performance, it's the headphone amp, I'm afraid.

Addressing your other issues, again it's hard to pick. Should you spend £400 on a DVD player and £150 on an amp? Well that depends, will the DVD player be performing CD duties? Again, the same key focus issues become apparent. Are you trying to build one system to do everything here? If so, it's best to know that there will be some performance sacrifices made to account for the "do-it-all" nature of universally specifying a product. If you were to spend £400 now on a DVD player and then £500 down the line on a good stereo DAC, then it might be an option. As it stands, I'd say your Marantz will perform as well as the best £400 DVD players for pure stereo purposes.

I'd be tempted to stick with what you have just for now, at least until you have the chance to hear what headphone amplifiers can do.
Whereabouts in the country are you? If there are members near to you who have on, it might be worth getting in contact for an audition, as headphone amps are pretty tough to find in any store.

[reevesy]

well i was in a similar quandry a while ago should i buy or not...now i've got 2....get a second hand x can or whatever...mine was about 70 quid and give it a go,you could always sell it on again.
me...i'm not one for noticing subtle differences so it took a while to be convinced about trying a amp but i have to say it did give me a clearer more detailed sound...the big eye opener...or ear opener was listening to a music dvd through my receiver,the sound though the x can....miles clearer.

i have read somewhere that a £150 cd player and a £150 set of cans with a £150 headphone amp will provide a more detailed sound than a tradional set up costing several times more......
like i say i only read it

[russellhclark]

Hi Doctor and Reevesy. First of all I'd like to thank you for taking the time and effort to give your advice which I very much appreciate.

To clarify my "brief" if you like, I would say that I am considering trading my equipment for stuff which is optimised for headphone listening. A headphone amp is an obvious choice but then I wonder if I would notice any difference. Like you say, I need to hear for myself. My local dealer has an X-CAN and a Pro-Ject £70 amp (whatever it is). I was considering the Pro-Ject Headbox SE http://www.project-audio.com/main.ph...sories&lang=en since it has three line inputs and two headphone jacks. I'm not sure where I can listen to one near where I live in (dare I admit it) HASTINGS AKA Scumbagville. It seems to me more of a proper standalone amp than most of the headphone amps which seem to me to be designed to supplement speaker amps.

As you detected from my essay I am striving to minimise the equipment (partly so it will fit on the VIERA stand shelves - the Onkyo is too tall), and in light of my inability to appreciate subtle differences in sound I am willing to compromise on equipment, ie use a DVD player to play CDs, as long as it won't sound worse than the Marantz CD67SE.

[pbirkett]

Headphone amps are a contentious subject for many (me included for a lot of years).

Without having heard your sources, but having had plenty of experience comparing many different headphone amps in combination with many different headphones and sources, I can say that if you truly want to increase the quality of your headphone listening, you are best off beginning at the source.

IMO, the source is the one thing that improves the experience the most.

The differences between headphone amps, particularly solid state ones can be quite subtle.

IMHO, just wipe any mainstream headphone amp straight off your list; The cheaper ones (all the way up to, and including the X-Can v3) are lacklustre, and unlikely to give any improvement over the headphone out of any decent stereo amplifier.

With headphone amps, you are looking at the smaller manufacturers, or the enthusiasts.

For example, the Rega Ear was a reasonable headphone amp for the money., but was significantly bettered to my ears by a little Headsave Classic, which was also cheaper, incidentally. Another comparison would be the X-Can v3 which i have owned. It is significantly bettered by my current ANT Amber (but try finding one now).

Basically if you want a *genuine* improvement, you will need to spend a good couple of hundred pounds, and even then, not on a mainstream amp. Even then, whether you judge the improvement as worth it, is anyones guess.

My suggestion, if you could, would be to find someone who has a good headphone amp, take your own amp along, and compare. If you can hear a difference, and you like it, go for it. If not, dont bother.

[pbirkett]

Oh and BTW, dont buy a headbox. They are crap.

[doctorjuggles]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

It is significantly bettered by my current ANT Amber (but try finding one now).

I have one for sale at the moment, actually. I don't want to hijack the thread or anything, so I'll just say it's available in the FS forums

[russellhclark]

Well thanks for the other comments. Things are becoming clearer in my head(phones). Hey Dr. don't worry, hijack is my middle name.

I have carried out an experiment with my equipment to test my hearing sensitivity since this seems key. I played the same song (Happy Talk) on the DVD player (Panasonic 454) and the CD player (Marantz CD67SE) listening with the 650s via the Onkyo whilst sitting on an Ikea CRUD 100 and drinking Special Brew SE. There is an honest difference but I can't pretend to talk about tonal this and timing/agility such and such. What I can say is that all the instruments were more defined and there was proper stereo defination like a live performance before me. Also, the Special Brew still tasted like ****. Simply put it was more real and more exciting. I should have done this a long time ago but I thank you all for instigating this experiment now. I'm thinking that the source possibly does make the biggest difference compared to the amp (I always have Branston), and besides, I could not detect a difference between the headphone socket on the CD player and that on the Amplifier (although there was a bit of brown sauce on the CD player).

Did I mention I have a NAD amp in the loft? A few more experiments may be necessary.

[Reano]

Marantz Headphone outs are very good comparable easily to the MF V3. You probably do not need to change from that to be honest. I tend to listen from all kinds of sources including PC, MP3 (ipod), CD, etc if you have lots of sources I would say go for an amp as it will be more useful an upgrade if you have a good CD player with good headphone out no need (imho).

Also the source being the best upgrade is not always the case. It's a case by case basis. Sometimes headphone upgrade is better, sometimes source, sometimes, amp, etc it all depends where you are starting from. You have good headphones with a good CD front end you should be fine. Unless you want to start looking at the Sugden Headmaster, Solo Monitor Class, Grace, etc even so the level of performance you gain really starts to drop off!

[pbirkett]

Originally Posted by Reano

Also the source being the best upgrade is not always the case. It's a case by case basis. Sometimes headphone upgrade is better, sometimes source, sometimes, amp, etc it all depends where you are starting from. You have good headphones with a good CD front end you should be fine. Unless you want to start looking at the Sugden Headmaster, Solo Monitor Class, Grace, etc even so the level of performance you gain really starts to drop off!

Yeah I'd agree... headphones are the biggest upgrade, but i really meant source v's amp... although again it depends - if you already have a decent source but not a decent amp then sure go for the amp. However, in the case where both amp and source are able to be improved considerably upon, then for me, source quality edges it because an amp generally only plays back the signal it receives, so if that signal is poor to start with, an amp is only going to exacerbate that effect.

[Reano]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

Yeah I'd agree... headphones are the biggest upgrade, but i really meant source v's amp... although again it depends - if you already have a decent source but not a decent amp then sure go for the amp. However, in the case where both amp and source are able to be improved considerably upon, then for me, source quality edges it because an amp generally only plays back the signal it receives, so if that signal is poor to start with, an amp is only going to exacerbate that effect.

Agreed .... Basically after this (upgrading all to a reasonable level) you get into the realms of "did you hear the difference wow...." While your other half just ......

[russellhclark]

Thanks for your views. I've sold everything and bought a new car.

[Reano]

Originally Posted by russellhclark

Thanks for your views. I've sold everything and bought a new car.

But what is the sound system like in the car