[socrates1]

Take a look at this link for upcoming Beyerdynamic surround technology. This thread also refers to and links to a discussion on SVS surround technology which has had rave reviews from those who have heard it. It seems to be very slow in getting rolled out and will cost $3k initially !!

I really like Dolby headphone but don't find the effect entirely convincing, particularly the placement of the front speakers which seem very close to me. I've been following the SVS discussion for a while and have high hopes for it, but as I say it seems to be very slow in coming to market.


http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=193742

[BAD Dave]

I am suprised surround sound headphones have not really taken off!
I have a Pioneer DIR 800C wireless Dolby Headphone unit which is pretty good but could be improved upon.

The Smyth Virtual Surround technology (used in the BeyerDynamic unit you mentioned) sounds like it might be the answer.

Yamaha are supposed to be bringing out a similar (?cheaper) unit:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/head...adsurround.htm

I can't find any details about when the Yamaha is due or how much it will cost.
Anyone have any ideas?

[mattski73]

to be honest i've only heard two systems, don't ask which ones they were, because i wasn't paying much attention to the set up.

i wasn't 100% convinced though, but if you're an enthusiast i can see the attraction.

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?

[socrates1]

Yamaha are supposed to be bringing out a similar (?cheaper) unit:

I can't find any details about when the Yamaha is due or how much it will cost.
Anyone have any ideas?[/QUOTE]


I've e-mailed several Yamaha websites in Japan, UK and USA and no answer on when the YSV-1 will be released or even acknowledgement that the product exists. Suggested price appears to be around $500. It's been shown at a few exhibitions now including CES 2007 but still no details on release date. See the following link for the CES coverage with additional links to photos at the end of the thread.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782167

Beyerdynamic are supposed to be bringing out a consumer version of their commercial Headzone (€2,200) product this year, but I haven't seen any further details.

The Yamaha YSV-1 is the one I really want to hear, based on the SVS technology discussed in great depth here:

http://www.stormbirds.org/~darryl/88_SVS_Smyth.pdf

[NicolasB]

An update to the AVS thread today links to here:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006024850

where you can find many pages of patent-related documents pertaining to SVS.

Has anyone heard anything else about SVS or the YSV-1 lately? Everything has been ominously quiet for an awfully long time, now.

[socrates1]

I sent an e-mail to SVS a couple of months ago. I got back a non commital e-mail talking about the hassles and various stages of bringing a new product to the market, and saying that Yamaha probably wouldn't comment until they had a release date.

[NicolasB]

I WANT ONE NOW, DAMN IT!

[FazerThou]

Originally Posted by mattski73

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?

You mean you can't hear anything coming up behind you before you see it?

Paul

[Dolus]

Originally Posted by mattski73

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?

I hope we don't see in 2D, we have two eyes and see in stereo allowing us to see depth as well as width and height 3D.

Actually we try and listen not only in 3D but 2D (stereo) 5.1D or 6.1D or even 7.1D

[NicolasB]

We certainly can both see and hear in 3D, of course. As far as watching movies is concerned it's true that we both watch and listen in 2D, but that's because the technology required to extend things into 3D (either for sound or vision) still hasn't really got there yet. (I am slightly surprised that there hasn't been more of an attempt to add height channels to audio, though).

Of course, the best solution to 3D audio is binaural recordings listened to with headphones - much more convincingly 3D than surround sound from multiple speakers, IMO. But that's another thread....

[Dolus]

I listened to some binaural recordings and they were generally excellent. The sound stage from the sides and the rear were convincing but the front sound stage sound always seemed over the top of my head.

It could be that people with different ears hear different things. I also got the same impression with Dolby headphone.

I have a pair of Medusa surround headphones and the level for the centre speaker is higher than the left/right/rears which reinforces the front sound stage making it appear more in front. Being used to this might be contributing to my experience with binaural & Dolby

[richard plumb]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Of course, the best solution to 3D audio is binaural recordings listened to with headphones - much more convincingly 3D than surround sound from multiple speakers, IMO. But that's another thread....

can you mix a binaural recording from a master 5.1/7.1 movie soundtrack?

If so, studios should put one of those on Blu-ray/HDDVDs as a separate soundtrack that you can listen to when you can't pump the volume up

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by richard plumb

can you mix a binaural recording from a master 5.1/7.1 movie soundtrack?

I was going to just say "no" in response to that, but I guess it deserves a rather more detailed answer.

First, let me define what a true binaural recording is. A genuine binaural recording is made by constructing a model head, and then putting microphones in its ears. The head is not a simple construction, incidentally - the materials it is made from have to respond to sound in the same way as a real head would, so you have to choose them carefully to have the correct density and firmness, as well as shaping them like a real head.

So, what a binaural recording does is to record what is happening actually inside the ears of a person who is listening to whatever is being recorded. You then use headphones to recreate that same sound inside the ears of a person listening to the recording. The two can match up very well.

The most common application would be to record something like a classical concert. But there are also a few recordings available of things like radio plays.

Binaural recordings aren't perfect, for a number of reasons, but they can achieve things that are impossible with speakers. Most notably, it is possible to make a sound appear to come from a position that is much closer to you than the speakers are. Speakers cannot reproduce the experience of having someone directly whisper into the listener's ear, but a binaural recording can.

If you want a quick sample, there's an "extra" on the DVD of Monsters, Inc. which was recorded binaurally - Billy Crystal and John Goodman talking into the microphone/ears. The effect is really quite creepy!

Now, you ask can if we can create a binaural recording by processing a 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack. The strict answer to that is no, we can't recreate a binaural recording as such. What we can do, however, is imagine playing back the 7.1 or 5.1 soundtrack over speakers, and then calculate what the sound would be in the ears of a listener listening to the speaker-playback; then we can recreate that as a stereo signal that can be fed to headphones.

This is not a true binaural recording: it is using headphones to simulate speakers rather than producing a recording that is explicitly designed for headphones in the first place. It will therefore never sound quite as good as actually playing the original 5.1 or 7.1 recording over speakers would (where a true binaural recording could sound much better).

However, it can get pretty close to listening via speakers. And this is precisely what a system like Dolby Headphone does. In theory, I suppose, one could set up a real listening room, play back the movie soundtrack over speakers, and record it binaurally (which still wouldn't make it a real binaural recording) but a more practical way to do it is to reproduce that process mathematically: feed in the original digital audio values for a 5.1-channel recording at one end, and then mathematically calculate (as a new, stereo digital signal) what that 5.1 track sounds like inside a listener's ears.

(This is quite a complex calculation; it involves not only processing direct sound coming from the "speakers" but also reflections from the walls of the imaginary listening room, and all of those being modified by the sound-waves diffracting around a person's head and ears, and making the bones of his skull vibrate.)

Now, there are systems which can do Dolby Headphone processing in real time. In principle there is also no reason why you shouldn't pre-calculate a Dolby Headphone track and record it onto a DVD as a stereo track. There are, in fact, a few DVDs that actually do this - but, sadly only a very few.

What this thread was originally about is a system called "Smyth Virtual Surround". In a way it does the same job as Dolby Headphone, but it does it in a much more clever way.

Instead of using a standardised theoretical room combined with a standardised theoretical set of listener's head and ears (which are never going to be quite the same as the real listener's ears are) it directly measures the effect of the listening room, and the speaker system, and of the person's head and ears, and then customises the calculation specifically for that combination (even correcting for the frequency response of the headphones he is using).

SVS also has a head-tracking system, so that when you turn your head from side to side during playback the perceived position of a sound changes in exactly the way that it would if it were coming from your speakers.

The effect is apparently so convincing that you genuinely can't tell whether you are listening to speakers or to headphones simulating speakers - there is no audible difference.

The downside of the system is that it cannot work without being calibrated to the combination of an individual person's ears and a specific listening room and sound system. That means you have to have a surround-sound setup running to calibrate it, and the system will accurately reproduce every single acoustic flaw that the original sound system and listening room have. It's impossible to supply a "standardised" ideal room, because you can't separate the influence of the room and the influence of the person's ears. You could offer a standard room+system+ears profile, but that (head-tracking aside) couldn't sound any better than Dolby Headphone does, and would render the system pointless.

This one?

http://www.beyerdynamic.de/cms/Press...ash=df0612e41a

[socrates1]

Originally Posted by Wolfheart

This one?

http://www.beyerdynamic.de/cms/Press...ash=df0612e41a

Yup, that's the home cinema version of the commerical product. I haven't seen anything yet on price. Looks like they are going to get the jump on the Yamaha YSV-1.

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Kilian Collins

Yup, that's the home cinema version of the commerical product.

Is the Beyerdynamic system based on Smyth Virtual Surround? There's no reference to "Smyth" or "SVS" in the press release. There's also no mention of the ability of SVS to calibrate for a specific combination of ears and listening room; on the contrary, it talks a lot about the ability to vary the characteristics of the simulated listening room. And there's no mention of in-ear microphones.

The greatest strength of SVS (and, arguably, also its greatest weakness) is that it is specifically tuned for every individual person's ears and listening room. I would have to question whether any system that is not calibrated to the ears and head of each individual could ever sound as good; but at the same time, not attempting to calibrate to the individual means you don't end up replicating the acoustic problems of the existing space.

This sounds to me like Beyerdynamic's own development, not something that uses SVS.

Originally Posted by Kilian Collins

I haven't seen anything yet on price.

You obviously didn't read down to the bottom of the page at the aforementioned link.

2,490 euros for the full system or 1,890 euros if you don't buy the head-tracking device. Availability in November.

[socrates1]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Is the Beyerdynamic system based on Smyth Virtual Surround?

This sounds to me like Beyerdynamic's own development, not something that uses SVS.

You obviously didn't read down to the bottom of the page at the aforementioned link.

2,490 euros for the full system or 1,890 euros if you don't buy the head-tracking device. Availability in November.

It's not based on the SVS technology, and you're right it's not as individualised as the SVS. The advantage of this will be for people who do not have decent existing speakers to calibrate from as is required by the Yamaha/SVS system.

I had read the press release on another site that didn't mention the price, so I'm gobsmacked at that price. The existing commerical model retails for €2,200, so I don't know where they're coming up with that price for the home model. I can't see them shifting too many at that price. The YSV-1 was rumoured to be in the $500 range, if it's ever released!

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by Kilian Collins

you're right it's not as individualised as the SVS

Another advantage of SVS is that you can use any pair of headphones with it - the system also includes them in the calibration process. The Beyer setup will oblige you to use DT880 or DT770 headphones only.

Originally Posted by Kilian Collins

The YSV-1 was rumoured to be in the $500 range, if it's ever released!

Big if.

[NicolasB]

Beyerdynamic are also doing a gaming version of Headzone, beased on MMX300 'phones.

I'd love to post a link, but AVForums doesn't like square brackets in URLs.

At the moment you can get to it by going here and clicking on "Surround Sensation on the PC".

This version costs "only" 1990 Euros.

Related:

http://www.sonicemotion.com/ch/conte...13/22/lang,en/

[torr1x]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Beyerdynamic are also doing a gaming version of Headzone, beased on MMX300 'phones.

I'd love to post a link, but AVForums doesn't like square brackets in URLs.

At the moment you can get to it by going here and clicking on "Surround Sensation on the PC".

This version costs "only" 1990 Euros.

Anybody know how MMX300 phones would compare to DT880 ?

I.e. what would sound better in bassy sounding games. I see the gaming version doesn't have the feature where you turn your head and the sounds still coming from the front, but does have a mic ...

[BAD Dave]

I have done a recent search on SVS Headphone technology and found nothing new on it!
Has it died a death? Does anyone know of anything to get us excited, or at least keep us interested?

I have had my Pioneer DIR-800C headphones for about 2 years now and I love them. But I do wish Dolby Headphone was more available and cheaper and that it had stimulated the production of newer, better products.

Surround sound headphone technology seems to move very slowly. It is very frustrating.

David

[honglong]

it looks like What Hi Fi April issue has a review of the Beyerdynamic surround headphones. I got an RSS about it, quote "a very clever pair of surround sound headphones from Beyerdynamic".

If someone has the mag, what review does it get? How many stars?

SoundonSound has already review them

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar0...eadzonepro.htm

[mattski73]

Originally Posted by Dolus

Originally Posted by mattski73

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?

I hope we don't see in 2D, we have two eyes and see in stereo allowing us to see depth as well as width and height 3D.

Actually we try and listen not only in 3D but 2D (stereo) 5.1D or 6.1D or even 7.1D

on screen we only see in 2D. so when a helicopter passes over your head out of screen, we can still hear it, but we don't all turn around and look behind us, because we all know we can't see it. it doesn't make sense, or maybe we're playing about with the senses....in any case, it's false!

[NicolasB]

Whoever thought 7.1 speakers means listening in 7.1 dimensions, I can assure you that it isn't: that's still just two dimensions, unless one of the speakers uses the THX "height channel".

on screen we only see in 2D. so when a helicopter passes over your head out of screen, we can still hear it, but we don't all turn around and look behind us, because we all know we can't see it. it doesn't make sense, or maybe we're playing about with the senses....in any case, it's false!

I think that may be partly because vision is such a rich, varied, intensive and (above all) directional/line-of-sight experience compared to sound. The sound of a helicopter behind you is actually not that different from the sound of a helicopter in front of you. You are aware of the distinction, but it's not something which makes a tremendous amount of difference to your perception of what's going on: it still sounds like a helicopter. And you're not going to accidentally miss the helicopter entirely because you happen to be leaning to the right a bit.

By contrast, a true 3D visual experience varies radically depending on which direction you're looking at it from. If a helicopter on screen happens to be behind a tree from the direction you're looking, you can't see it at all. This means that each visual frame has to be very carefully composed to be viewed from one specific angle and distance. Even quite minor variations in the position of the camera completely change the composition and the impact of the scene. With a true, immersive 3D image there simply isn't enough control over what the viewer sees to be able to make the cinematography effective.

Also, of course, it's really hard to make a genuinely 3D image. Most attempts at it so far are not true 3D (there's no parallax and no authentic focal depth-of-field) and they tend to cause eye-strain to boot.

I think it is a valid question to ask why sound systems generally remain 2D rather than 3D, though; mounting speakers under the floor may be tricky, but mounting on the ceiling is perfectly possible, and yet this isn't done, even in cinemas.

[NicolasB]

Some Smyth Virtual Surround news:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...41&postcount=1

Sounds like Smyth's own $3000 system might actually be shipping soon; but Yamaha's cheaper "YSV-1" has (according to that link) been cancelled.

The Smyth SVS system can be heard at this upcoming conference next month. Maybe they're getting closer to having a product.

http://www.aes.org/sections/uk/confe...onf/index.html

[jalyst]

So Yamaha's Silent Cinema is gone in favour of SVS?
How does it compare to DH?
Can one get SVS adapters like the DH JVC adapter SU-DH1?

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by jalyst

So Yamaha's Silent Cinema is gone in favour of SVS?
How does it compare to DH?
Can one get SVS adapters like the DH JVC adapter SU-DH1?

Yamaha's SVS product was cancelled a long time ago. The only shipping product with SVS (as far as I know) is Smyth's own "Realizer A8" (link) which sells for about $3000. It cannot accept any kind of digital input, so you need a separate, high-quality home cinema processor to actually decode Dolby Digital or DTS soundtracks as well.

SVS is in a completely different league from Dolby Headphone. First, it supports head-tracking - when you turn your head the sound moves relative to your ears in exactly the way it would if you were listening to speakers. (Speakers obviously don't rotate around you when you turn your head). More importantly, where DH and similar systems use the same calculations for all users, SVS is individually customised to one specific combination of a sound system, a listening room, and a user's ears (and then additionally callibrated for one or more specific sets of headphones). It is capable of reproducing the characteristics of a listening room accurately enough that users genuinely cannot tell whether they are listening to headphones or the speakers (other than by feeling the pressure of the headphones against their head).

The downside of this is that there is no way to separate the effect of the sound system and the room from the effect of the user's ears; so it cannot ship with a pre-calculated "profile", you have to callibrate it yourself. That means you need a good quality surround speaker system and listening room to do the callibration; if you do it on a cheap sound system in a room with poor accoustics then it will exactly reproduce all of the audio problems that the system and the room have. (Of course, if you have a friend with a high-end home cinema installation you could maybe borrow it for a few minutes).

All in all, this isn't a cheap, portable solution.

[jalyst]

Found out what it essentially is a little later, but I appreciate the in-depth explanation.

I don't have the money for this sort of set-up right now but am seriously considering it as an alternatvie to a great speaker set-up in the future.

All the best.