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Old 17-08-2006, 4:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Potential new surround headphone system

Take a look at this link for upcoming Beyerdynamic surround technology. This thread also refers to and links to a discussion on SVS surround technology which has had rave reviews from those who have heard it. It seems to be very slow in getting rolled out and will cost $3k initially !!

I really like Dolby headphone but don't find the effect entirely convincing, particularly the placement of the front speakers which seem very close to me. I've been following the SVS discussion for a while and have high hopes for it, but as I say it seems to be very slow in coming to market.


http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=193742
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Old 06-03-2007, 11:02 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

I am suprised surround sound headphones have not really taken off!
I have a Pioneer DIR 800C wireless Dolby Headphone unit which is pretty good but could be improved upon.

The Smyth Virtual Surround technology (used in the BeyerDynamic unit you mentioned) sounds like it might be the answer.

Yamaha are supposed to be bringing out a similar (?cheaper) unit:

http://hometheater.about.com/od/head...adsurround.htm

I can't find any details about when the Yamaha is due or how much it will cost.
Anyone have any ideas?
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Old 06-03-2007, 8:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

to be honest i've only heard two systems, don't ask which ones they were, because i wasn't paying much attention to the set up.

i wasn't 100% convinced though, but if you're an enthusiast i can see the attraction.

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?
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Old 08-03-2007, 4:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

Yamaha are supposed to be bringing out a similar (?cheaper) unit:

I can't find any details about when the Yamaha is due or how much it will cost.
Anyone have any ideas?[/QUOTE]


I've e-mailed several Yamaha websites in Japan, UK and USA and no answer on when the YSV-1 will be released or even acknowledgement that the product exists. Suggested price appears to be around $500. It's been shown at a few exhibitions now including CES 2007 but still no details on release date. See the following link for the CES coverage with additional links to photos at the end of the thread.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782167

Beyerdynamic are supposed to be bringing out a consumer version of their commercial Headzone (€2,200) product this year, but I haven't seen any further details.

The Yamaha YSV-1 is the one I really want to hear, based on the SVS technology discussed in great depth here:

http://www.stormbirds.org/~darryl/88_SVS_Smyth.pdf
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Old 13-06-2007, 4:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

An update to the AVS thread today links to here:

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006024850

where you can find many pages of patent-related documents pertaining to SVS.

Has anyone heard anything else about SVS or the YSV-1 lately? Everything has been ominously quiet for an awfully long time, now.
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Old 13-06-2007, 4:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

I sent an e-mail to SVS a couple of months ago. I got back a non commital e-mail talking about the hassles and various stages of bringing a new product to the market, and saying that Yamaha probably wouldn't comment until they had a release date.
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Old 13-06-2007, 4:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

I WANT ONE NOW, DAMN IT!

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Old 13-06-2007, 5:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattski73 View Post

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?
You mean you can't hear anything coming up behind you before you see it?

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Old 13-06-2007, 6:27 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

Originally Posted by mattski73

but one thing i've never really cottoned on to, is why do we try and listen in 3D when we can only see in 2D?

I hope we don't see in 2D, we have two eyes and see in stereo allowing us to see depth as well as width and height 3D.

Actually we try and listen not only in 3D but 2D (stereo) 5.1D or 6.1D or even 7.1D
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Old 14-06-2007, 8:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

We certainly can both see and hear in 3D, of course. As far as watching movies is concerned it's true that we both watch and listen in 2D, but that's because the technology required to extend things into 3D (either for sound or vision) still hasn't really got there yet. (I am slightly surprised that there hasn't been more of an attempt to add height channels to audio, though).

Of course, the best solution to 3D audio is binaural recordings listened to with headphones - much more convincingly 3D than surround sound from multiple speakers, IMO. But that's another thread....
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Old 14-06-2007, 9:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

I listened to some binaural recordings and they were generally excellent. The sound stage from the sides and the rear were convincing but the front sound stage sound always seemed over the top of my head.

It could be that people with different ears hear different things. I also got the same impression with Dolby headphone.

I have a pair of Medusa surround headphones and the level for the centre speaker is higher than the left/right/rears which reinforces the front sound stage making it appear more in front. Being used to this might be contributing to my experience with binaural & Dolby
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Old 20-06-2007, 2:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

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Originally Posted by NicolasB View Post
Of course, the best solution to 3D audio is binaural recordings listened to with headphones - much more convincingly 3D than surround sound from multiple speakers, IMO. But that's another thread....


can you mix a binaural recording from a master 5.1/7.1 movie soundtrack?

If so, studios should put one of those on Blu-ray/HDDVDs as a separate soundtrack that you can listen to when you can't pump the volume up
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Old 20-06-2007, 2:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

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Originally Posted by richard plumb View Post
can you mix a binaural recording from a master 5.1/7.1 movie soundtrack?
I was going to just say "no" in response to that, but I guess it deserves a rather more detailed answer.

First, let me define what a true binaural recording is. A genuine binaural recording is made by constructing a model head, and then putting microphones in its ears. The head is not a simple construction, incidentally - the materials it is made from have to respond to sound in the same way as a real head would, so you have to choose them carefully to have the correct density and firmness, as well as shaping them like a real head.

So, what a binaural recording does is to record what is happening actually inside the ears of a person who is listening to whatever is being recorded. You then use headphones to recreate that same sound inside the ears of a person listening to the recording. The two can match up very well.

The most common application would be to record something like a classical concert. But there are also a few recordings available of things like radio plays.

Binaural recordings aren't perfect, for a number of reasons, but they can achieve things that are impossible with speakers. Most notably, it is possible to make a sound appear to come from a position that is much closer to you than the speakers are. Speakers cannot reproduce the experience of having someone directly whisper into the listener's ear, but a binaural recording can.

If you want a quick sample, there's an "extra" on the DVD of Monsters, Inc. which was recorded binaurally - Billy Crystal and John Goodman talking into the microphone/ears. The effect is really quite creepy!

Now, you ask can if we can create a binaural recording by processing a 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack. The strict answer to that is no, we can't recreate a binaural recording as such. What we can do, however, is imagine playing back the 7.1 or 5.1 soundtrack over speakers, and then calculate what the sound would be in the ears of a listener listening to the speaker-playback; then we can recreate that as a stereo signal that can be fed to headphones.

This is not a true binaural recording: it is using headphones to simulate speakers rather than producing a recording that is explicitly designed for headphones in the first place. It will therefore never sound quite as good as actually playing the original 5.1 or 7.1 recording over speakers would (where a true binaural recording could sound much better).

However, it can get pretty close to listening via speakers. And this is precisely what a system like Dolby Headphone does. In theory, I suppose, one could set up a real listening room, play back the movie soundtrack over speakers, and record it binaurally (which still wouldn't make it a real binaural recording) but a more practical way to do it is to reproduce that process mathematically: feed in the original digital audio values for a 5.1-channel recording at one end, and then mathematically calculate (as a new, stereo digital signal) what that 5.1 track sounds like inside a listener's ears.

(This is quite a complex calculation; it involves not only processing direct sound coming from the "speakers" but also reflections from the walls of the imaginary listening room, and all of those being modified by the sound-waves diffracting around a person's head and ears, and making the bones of his skull vibrate.)

Now, there are systems which can do Dolby Headphone processing in real time. In principle there is also no reason why you shouldn't pre-calculate a Dolby Headphone track and record it onto a DVD as a stereo track. There are, in fact, a few DVDs that actually do this - but, sadly only a very few.

What this thread was originally about is a system called "Smyth Virtual Surround". In a way it does the same job as Dolby Headphone, but it does it in a much more clever way.

Instead of using a standardised theoretical room combined with a standardised theoretical set of listener's head and ears (which are never going to be quite the same as the real listener's ears are) it directly measures the effect of the listening room, and the speaker system, and of the person's head and ears, and then customises the calculation specifically for that combination (even correcting for the frequency response of the headphones he is using).

SVS also has a head-tracking system, so that when you turn your head from side to side during playback the perceived position of a sound changes in exactly the way that it would if it were coming from your speakers.

The effect is apparently so convincing that you genuinely can't tell whether you are listening to speakers or to headphones simulating speakers - there is no audible difference.

The downside of the system is that it cannot work without being calibrated to the combination of an individual person's ears and a specific listening room and sound system. That means you have to have a surround-sound setup running to calibrate it, and the system will accurately reproduce every single acoustic flaw that the original sound system and listening room have. It's impossible to supply a "standardised" ideal room, because you can't separate the influence of the room and the influence of the person's ears. You could offer a standard room+system+ears profile, but that (head-tracking aside) couldn't sound any better than Dolby Headphone does, and would render the system pointless.
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Old 21-08-2007, 8:59 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

This one?

http://www.beyerdynamic.de/cms/Press...ash=df0612e41a

Last edited by Wolfheart; 21-08-2007 at 9:01 AM.
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Old 22-08-2007, 11:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Potential new surround headphone system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfheart View Post


Yup, that's the home cinema version of the commerical product. I haven't seen anything yet on price. Looks like they are going to get the jump on the Yamaha YSV-1.
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