A note for those who ask about headphones and amps

[StevieDvd]

Based on some personal experience and many discussions with more experienced audio nutters (audiophiles) here's my observations for your reading pleasure.

What headphones should I get and do I need a headphone amplifier?

I'd say you need to sort out a few choices first.

When people say you need an amp it's for two basic reasons:

1. Headphones like the Senn HD650s are difficult to drive and should be used with a headphone amp to get the best from them. Otherwise they can seem a little lack lustre for the price. Grado headphones are much easier to drive so don't have to have an amp as much.

2. Quality & detail. Here's the bit where the big arguments start. It is said that most hi-fi equipment (except the really high-end stuff) is designed for speaker usage and the components in the headphone circuit are built to too low a cost price. This is where the headphone amps jump in, from the cheap cmoy, which is about a dozen or so cheap components, up to the big huge tube amps costing thousands.

Those points aside it's down to you, your preference in music and your ability to hear the small differences.

*** Night & Day differences quoted by some audiophiles are sometimes just an improvement of a few percent. There is no standard definition ***

Grado are usually the rock lover’s choice, can tend to be a little harsh in the treble regions and are bought for the sound not the look or build. Unless you go up to the higher models the cheaper end are quite plastic. The foam pads are also a big bone of contention, until they are settled in they feel like sandpaper and you won't be able to wear them for extended periods - called the Grado burn. If you like rock then you could get these and add a good amp later when the budget builds up. Now comes the UK price shock. The prices are fixed in each region and Grado authorised sellers are not supposed to sell outside their area. What may cost $200 in the US could cost £300 in the UK - compare UK and US price of the SR325i for example. There is another company that sells tweaked version of Grado - called Alessandro - who do sell abroad. You could get say the Alessandro MS2i (equivalent of SR325i) from the US, ship it over and pay the customs and still be cheaper than the official SR325i price here by a large amount.

Senn HD650s as a choice of headphone would be fine by most people who have a mixed choice of musical tastes or veer towards classical. However, that takes most of your budget, as they are around £230 new in the UK. OK you could get a cheap amp to tide you over but to appreciate the money invested in the HD650s that's where the good amp is needed.

If you can see my details at the bottom of the post or have seen my previous postings I have both Senn and Grado cans and have gone through the cheap amp route to higher end ones. Going that way costs a lot more and I never planned to spend that sort of money when I started.

OK Senn and Grado are not the only choices but they are probably the main ones used by audiophiles over at head-fi. You can check out Beyerdynamic, AKG and Sony as well.

So the gist of all this rather than trying to confuse matters is that you need to get an idea, which camp you fall in to.

Grado your style - then get one of the better models and save for a good amp.

Senns your style - harder choice as you'll need to spend more up front for the amp & headphones, or cheaper amp to tide you over.

I've had a few members of head-fi and avforums round trying out my equipment and it certainly helps to get the chance if you can do something like this before committing yourself.


Steve

[Reano]

Great post. I started off about 10 years ago with a nice midi hifi from Comet (or some similar place) and never expected or wanted to spend as much as I have but as you move up the range you find that you really have been missing out a lot so try and save yourself a lot of bother and go for as good a quality as you can afford.

A little note on 'subjectiveness' as a lot of people say. People normally say make sure you listen for yourself, etc and this is true but remember most people are like each other than they are different. Thats why you can have standard eye tests and they suit nearly all people. You have standard ear tests and they suit nearly all people. Thats why doctors, car manufacturers, food manufacturers can test a sample of something on a few people and can with reasonable accuracy know it will work with 'nearly' all people. So a few people may say try the Sennheiser HD600 with so and so amp. Don't think well I have these cheap pair of saniela (hopefully not a real name) and I bet they sound as good as the Senn's, cause they won't (you would be extremely fortunate for them too).

In my job I do a lot of performance measurement and testing against users 'preceived view of quality' and in nearly all cases peoples perceptions are very similar. So don't think that you are too unique (you are not I'm sorry ). You may have different fingerprints but your ears, eyes, etc are built to do the same job and in reality work pretty much the same. Think about it if you believe in evolution then you accept the concept that things evolve to a 'norm' 'species' If you believe in special creation then it's exactly the same people created to a model. 'In most cases you buy cheap you buy twice' and other similar quotes are used for a reason.

Sorry for the preaching

[NicolasB]

I own a pretty respectable headphone amp (see signature) but even I think their necessity is often exaggerated. Even 'phones like the HD650 generally do not need a headphone amp, unless the device you're listening to is deliberately designed to throttle the power output of the headphone socket. In practice, that usually means "unless the device is designed to run off batteries rather than the mains". They may sound better with a headphone amp - but that's because (as already mentioned) most designed-for-speakers amplifiers have headphone stages that cost about 50 pence - the cheapest of cheap op amp chips or in some cases just a simple resistor placed across the speaker outputs.

Some devices, of course, do actually have quite good headphone output. You should always audition a headphone amp against your current kit before buying: it may actually not sound any better. And, even if it does, the chances are that you will get a much larger increase in sound quality by taking the money and using it to buy a better pair of headphones or a better CD player instead.

If you're flush, consider a Benchmark DAC-1, which has a respectable built-in headphone stage, and which sells for $875 in the US but (according to some people who have owned both) outperforms CD players with five-figure price tags.

If you're after some fairly high-end 'phones, some alternatives to Grado and Sennheiser might be:

- Beyerdynamic DT-880

- AKG K-1000 (which are designed to be connected directly to the loudspeaker output terminals of a conventional power-amp).

- An electrostatic system, such as one of those made by Stax. At first glance these seem very expensive because of the cost of the "energiser" driving electronics, but if you compare the price of the whole system to the price of conventional ("dynamic") headphones plus a decent headphone amp, they're not bad value at all.

[extremelydodgy]

I'm not one for night and day differences, but the difference if getting more or less exactly what you want and something which leaves you itching for an upgrade can be a few percent.


The Sennheiser Orpheus for example isn't that much of a leap upwards in terms of sound quality from some other headphones I have. I have cheaper headphones which probably have higher precision. It's just the way that every component of sound comes together that makes it a great headphone. Tonality, quality, staging, etc are pretty much perfectly judged and these are things which you can find in other phones. I'd say these are 'few percent' changes. Yet you'll find even people who aren't audiophiles saying "that sounds really nice". The few percent does make a difference once you're focused on the sound. The key is which few percent you choose to spend your money on.

[Reano]

Hi Nicholas, Good post. One point that this thread started off with is about "Headphones AND amps" Not just headphone amps. There is the law of diminishing returns as extremelydodgy <----- what a name is pointing out. You may start off with some freebie phones, then you buy something for £30, then £100, then £300, etc the leap in sound quality gets less and less but there is some and it's at what point you think enough is enough 'this is good enough'. I also replied to a post about a guy who was asking about his Marantz headphone out and I told him probably best to stick with that unless he wanted to spend a lot of money just to hear a 'reasonable' sound improvement.

Note we are not saying in 'all cases' a headphone amp or higher costing headphones will suit. I have listened to the Beyer (I think the 990 can't remember) and thought the Grado and Senn's were better. Note if you go to headfi my rig of RS1 and Gracie m902 is considered by some as sort of 'middle' hifi loler and to them it is!!!! I have got to my 'enough point' (or have I read my signature)

Also if you look at another thread I have started I am actually putting a challenge out for people to better some headphones that cost £17.49! As I think they are very good.

I actually think the project headbox sounds better and was more practical than the more expensive musical fidelity v3 head amp I brought so I sold the MF V3 I used to use for my main rig.

[StevieDvd]

Some good points being added, so hopefully this will be an informative thread for anyone searching.

The trick as has been stated is to find your magic point, where any further upgrades (which may be better) are lost on you or simply way outside your budget.

Having listed to some real high-end setups at a headfi meet I realised that I'd not be likely to go to that expense unless I won the lottery.

However, there were a few there who did realise that a setup they did appreciate was withing budget but they had been trying to pare back the cost too much and ended up wasting more than they saved.

If I had the magic setup for all I'd open up the shop and sell it.

[NicolasB]

Originally Posted by extremelydodgy

The Sennheiser Orpheus for example isn't that much of a leap upwards in terms of sound quality from some other headphones I have.

Um... well, yeah, relatively few people can afford to spend £10,000 on headphones. But, having said that, I think the difference in quality up to about the £200 mark is actually very large. There is a big jump going from £20 'phones to £40 'phones (e.g. Beyerdynamic DT-231), another big jump going to £60 'phones (like Grado SR-60). And there's an even larger jump in quality between them and something like the Sennheiser HD580, which can be had for £100. I was actually surprised by just how large a jump in quality there is between The Sennheiser HD600 and HD650. I was expecting the difference to be barely noticeable, but actually it's enough to make me immediately say "oh wow, that's good!" the first time I put them on.

From that point upwards I think you start to hit diminishing returns territory: the difference in quality between a £2,500 Stax system and a £10,000 Sennheiser Orpheus system is perceptible, but not dramatic.

I do think there's a rather unhealthy obsession with headphone amps on this forum. I always feel sad when someone decides to buy a £60 pair of headphones with a £150 headphone amp instead of £200 headphones with no amp - that latter would (IMO) sound dramatically much better than the former in most setups. Even if you can afford good 'phones and a good amp, you'll still quite possibly get much more of an improvement in sound quality by spending a few hundred quid upgrading your CD player than you would by spending it on a headphone amp.

Much the same is true of a speaker system, of course: the speakers make more difference to the sound quality than anything else, next is (arguably) the source (e.g. CD player) then the pre-amp, and the power amp the least of all, so long as it is actually capable of delivering enough power to avoid clipping. People will insist on spending all of their money bi-amping instead of single-amping with better quality speakers, and the sound quality invariably suffers as a result.

Then, of course, there's the people who spend more money on the cables than they do on the components....

[Reano]

Not sure I agree with what your saying. I must say I do agree with extremelydoddgy and Steve but not sure I do with some of your statements here's why

"The Sennheiser HD600 and HD650. I was expecting the difference to be barely noticeable, but actually it's enough to make me immediately say "oh wow, that's good!" the first time I put them on."

I have both of these and the difference between them in my opnion is not that big. But for you it's enough. However the Grado's which go past your £200 point is considerably better. I did the wife test HD600 - HD650 not really that much difference she said, Grado RS1 "Oh yeah thats better" she is a musician so not saying she doesn't know music or anything Note all hifi mags that I have read that reviewed them thought there was minor improvements.

"I do think there's a rather unhealthy 'obsession' with headphone amps on this forum." Emphasis added

I had to laugh at this one I hardly see many people on this forum ---> Head-fi is where you need to see obsession and they admit it too.... Like mentioned before if someone likes the cd out and in a particular case some of the Marantz I know have good headphone outs from their CD player I suggest to people stay put.

"I always feel sad when someone decides to buy a £60 pair of headphones with a £150 headphone
amp instead of £200 headphones with no amp - that latter would (IMO) sound dramatically much
better than the former in most setups."

Really? I would say a combo of Grado 80 at say £75 from eBay with musical fidelity amp V2 (upgraded tubes) would beat new pair of HD600 with no amp. I assume here that the headphone out of the CD player is not being considered. So why feel sad. I even ask people where possible to go and listen to the recommendations and see what they feel (just like you would). People can make their own minds up. A bit like when I say get a portable amp if mp3 player used heavily for work.

"Even if you can afford good 'phones and a good amp, you'll still quite possibly get much more of an improvement in sound quality by spending a few hundred quid upgrading your CD player than you would by spending it on a headphone amp."

Of course you might but then you might not. This can be said for everything even for headphones and headphone amps

"Much the same is true of a speaker system, of course: the speakers make more difference to the sound quality than anything else," Then why don't headphones? As they are doing the same job delivering sound to your ears?

Once again there are diminshing returns here and also I have changed the source to vinyl on some occasions and it sounds better than a speaker change of several hundred pounds more. I see you have the good old B&W speakers several thousand pounds and I assume you are happy with those. Someone may say well I think some Kef iq9 are fine for me..

"Then, of course, there's the people who spend more money on the cables than they do on the components.... "

Oh dear glad this isn't me but I have been in people's houses that have a very good home cinema setup and have had an extension built where all the cables are run through the walls, the mains are on a seperate ring, etc and they cost more than the components hmmm . The cables were not those £100's a metre jobbies either.

Very strange your post, as Steve is saying if you want to buy headphone amp and phones consider these things. He is not saying you MUST buy them.

[HighlandeR]

My newbie thoughts, this can easily turn into a very addictive and expensive hobby ! So be warned !

I recently heard my m8s Senns HD595s, and ended up £350 short this week, got the Senns HD595s and a Nad Stereo C352 amp.

The headphone outs ok but tbh im still comtemplating if all this was worth it, the sound quality from the Nad Amp is good but oddly the output from the X-fi soundcard is perhaps better ! Im finding the vocals more natural and the instruments are more evident, the mids are mucky or not there with the Nad headphone output...

My old sherwood RDS 6095 AV amp was even better and I sold that for 50 quid lol

So theres some definate truth that maybe headphone jacks on amps arent as good as they could be certainly im wondering if I should have spent £250-400 on a good headphone amp now....

Also debating the Senn HD595s also! there open and bit noisy im finding I dont want family listening on me @ 3am while im either gaming/watching my scifi/music.....

Im just glad Richer sounds got a 14 day policy if anything

Just goes to show it can be a long and expensive hobby, right now id love to go back to my wireless headphones that cost £40 and sounded "pretty bad" in comparision but hey there wireless and vocals were good! What im saying is listen to your ears but remember its not always about the having the best/ultimate setup......

[pbirkett]

Right, here is my 2p worth on the whole thing.

This is a complex issue IMO. Nothing is ever straightforward when it comes to headphones.

You have, by and large, 2 types of headphones - low impedance and high impedance. This basically means resistance in more simple terms. The higher the resistance, the more voltage (watts) is needed to drive them to a given volume.

This is why high impedance headphones, such as Beyerdynamic and Sennheiser often (but not always) require amps - if I try driving my Beyerdynamic DT531 from my ipod without an amp, the result is poor - not much volume, and the sound is weak and lifeless.

Now, a headphone with a lower resistance, for example, Grado, Sony and most portable solutions (like IEMs) can be much more easily driven, because its need for power is less.

So that in a nutshell is why you sometimes need an amp.

However, it does not end there

A lot of people talk of using integrated amps, and say that they often sound crap in comparison to a dedicated headphone amp. Again, IMHO, this is not always true. However this is dependant on the amp used (the circuitry in some amps is better than others), and also the headphones used.

In most integrated amps or receivers, an output is taken straight from the power amp section and is then "scaled down" using a resistor - it has to otherwise the power will blow the headphone drivers, and your skull is not meant to have drivers as permanent protruding features!

Now remembering that impedance = resistance, what does it mean therefore to add a resistor in the signal path? Yes thats correct, the effective impedance of the headphones actually increases - and this itself causes the damping factor of the amp to decrease.

So in effect what happens is, if you have a 120 ohm resistor in the signal path, then a pair of 250 ohm headphones effectively becomes 370 ohms (250 + 120). However, a 32 ohm pair of headphones effectively becomes 152 ohms (32 + 120).

What happens when the impedance of headphones is changed is it changes the sound of the headphones - and unless the headphones are designed for it, not always / usually for the better. The usual effect tends to be that the bass in particular is often increased in output (hence many noticing integrated sounding bassier than dedicated amps), but also a decrease in clarity and a loss of detail also occurs.

Now in my experience, high impedance headphones are quite often not as badly affected by this as low impedance ones are - if you have 300 ohm headphones then add a 120 ohm resistor, the increase in resistance is something in the region of 40% or so. However, if you have a 32 ohm phone, the increase in resistance would be more like 400%. So you can see that this is bound to have a much more profound effect on the sound.

Therefore, another advantage to a headphone amp over an integrated jack is the headphone amp is actually like a minituarised speaker amp dedicated for headphone use, and as such, the output impedance is close to 0 ohms, resulting in a more uncoloured sound, with all of the detail and clarity the headphones can provide. In this respect, despite the fact the integrated likely has more power to throw at the headphones than a headphone amp will, easier to drive headphones can often benefit more from being given a dedicated amp over using an integrated.

In my experience, low impedance phones sound very poor from most integrated amp headphone jacks. Higher impedance ones can often sound little different and in some cases, some users prefer the sound as it can be more fleshed out and less clinical (again depends on the headphones).

So, to summarise, IMO a good headphone amp is always optimal for driving ANY headphone, but the improvement can range from miniscule to dramatic depending on the headphones and other equipment used. If I was to sum it up I would say:

Low impedance headphones = can often be used directly from the source; headphone amps sometimes dont yield much improvement over direct from source sound; often sound muddy on integrateds...

High impedance headphones = usually cannot be used directly from the source; headphone amps provide much need volume and power; can usually be used on integrated without problem - but may (or may not sound better) with a dedicated amp.

@Highlander - I dont know if you followed my post - but for the reasons above I am not surprised the soundcard sounds better - the HD595 are if I remember correctly fairly low impedance, and the X-Fi has dedicated headphone op-amps so it effectively has a small dedicated headphone amp on it. The NAD will probably sound muddier.

[HighlandeR]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

@Highlander - I dont know if you followed my post - but for the reasons above I am not surprised the soundcard sounds better - the HD595 are if I remember correctly fairly low impedance, and the X-Fi has dedicated headphone op-amps so it effectively has a small dedicated headphone amp on it. The NAD will probably sound muddier.

Well that explains alot ! wish I knew that before splashing out on a nad stereo amp/

I was gonna say the X-fi output is quite good is that directly from the soundcard or the X-fi front box panel ?

Im using the front panel headphone input....

[pbirkett]

I dont know the soundcard, but I suspect the front panel is fine mate

[HighlandeR]

Originally Posted by pbirkett

I dont know the soundcard, but I suspect the front panel is fine mate

http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=143286&page=2

certainly interesting stuff....

Originally Posted by HighlandeR

... right now id love to go back to my wireless headphones that cost £40 and sounded "pretty bad" in comparision but hey there wireless and vocals were good! What im saying is listen to your ears but remember its not always about the having the best/ultimate setup......

I'm inclined (as a fellow newbie to the baffling word of headphones), to agree about loving cans that are relatively cheap and dirty. Much as I've adored my two pairs of AKGs (the mini K26 P was a big step up from my Sony MDR-J20; my new K81 DJ make my Sony MDR-V300 sound as bad as they look!), I've yet to hear a pair of wired phones that sound - to me, at least - as satisfying as my RF wireless Sony TMR-RF850R ... albeit on a good day, when the FM signal is spot on! But like I say, I'm new at this. Give it time and I'm sure I'll make some wonderful discoveries.

Cracking post, pbirkett! Thanks for the summary!