I give up!!!!!!

[pbirkett]

With headphone amps that is.

This is not the first time I have posted about this in various forae, but I am just totally convinced now that for me at least, these things are one of the biggest rip offs in hifi.

My source is an EMU 0404 soundcard, my headphones Beyerdynamic DT531 and my headphone amp is the Headsave Classic with AD8620 opamps. Also at my disposal is a Rotel RA-01 stereo amp which has its own headphone socket.

I had not listened to my headphones at all for quite a long time... why was this I wondered? So I decided, being in a mood for some tunes last night, to listen to them. The sound was sweet, and 'nice' but the sound for me was uninvolving - where is the bass? Where was the warmth?

So I decided for old time sake to plug them into my amp, and again this morning. Doing this has made me realise what I liked about these headphones in the first place: warm, bright, punchy and musical.

In fact, despite me having had many headphone amps in the future, and therefore knowing the Headsave to be one of the better amps I've had, there was not one single area that the Rotel sounded worse than the Headsave to my ears, on my equipment, with my music etc. I was expecting to hear a muddy, muffled sound in comparison. It simply isnt. It manages to sound more inviting, warmer, with a more fleshed out but still just as punchy bass (which is good because it almost seemed like it was absent before).

I have tried around with various interconnects with the Headsave, but nothing really gave me the sound I wanted.

I appreciate that for many people, they might well prefer the sound of a headphone amp - it is arguably a cleaner sound, and will happily spend hundreds for that last few percent. I appreciate that other headphones will appreciate a dedicated amp more, and I appreciate I am probably in a minority on this - but this is my 6th headphone amp now, all of which were used with various headphones, and I have not personally been impressed by any of them. Some would blame the quality of my source and/or headphones, but I really dont think it is this - the soundcard sounds much better than most people probably imagine who hadnt heard it, and even if it was, surely if there was an improvement to be had, then it would still be there to hear... or perhaps I'm just deaf. It does however, prove one thing to me: At best, headphone amps really are a "last few percent" upgrade for those who have a good quality speaker amp with a headphone socket.... and in my particular case, I have often preferred the sound of the speaker amp, no matter how against the grain it happens to be

The only other possibility is that the headphones I've got, which are quite an old design, are perhaps designed for speaker amps in the first place, hence why they sound too thin on a proper headphone amp. I have to say that I have had headphones that subjectively do seem to have benefitted, so what I am saying is not the be all and end all. Everyone hears different, and I respect this, and all headphones and systems are different. What I would say though, is carefully audition these devices if you can before you buy, because depending on your kit, your music taste and your hearing you might find the same. For me at least, I am done buying any more headphone amps.

[sceptic]

I've said this before. Every time I look at my kit and see the headphone amp I regret buying it. It's a 2004 Slee Solo that cost £450 driving Sennheiser HD600 cans with a Marantz 6000 KI CDP.
Of all the AV/hifi stuff I've ever bought this is by far the biggest waste of money.
I've tried hard to convince myself that it's an improvement over the the AV/Hifi amps I've used but can't discern much, if any, difference. I've also asked friends to listen with similar results. I'm embarrassed, frankly, to tell anyone how much I paid for the damn thing. It doesn't even look good.
It still bugs me to think how much better spent the £450 could have been.
I keep intending to sell it but haven't yet got around to it.
Anyway, I would advise anyone intending to get a headphone amp to audition (I didn't) although this is easier said than done.
Doh, I've got myself in a state again.

sceptic,

if you can beg, borrow or steal a pair of Sennheiser HD-25 closed-back professional headphones (for which the Slee was specifically designed), then you may well end up flogging those HD600s and keeping the amp...I'd say its the headphones that are more the rip-off

although you may well be right about value for money - £450 of Slee in expensive casing is probably £150 worth of major manufacturer Headphone Amp

anyway - let me know your price before you advertise it up for the sale! please!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by superpixel

sceptic,

if you can beg, borrow or steal a pair of Sennheiser HD-25 closed-back professional headphones (for which the Slee was specifically designed), then you may well end up flogging those HD600s and keeping the amp...I'd say its the headphones that are more the rip-off

although you may well be right about value for money - £450 of Slee in expensive casing is probably £150 worth of major manufacturer Headphone Amp

anyway - let me know your price before you advertise it up for the sale! please!

superpixel
I thought that the Slee was designed using Senn HD600/650.
I've also used the amp with Sony MDR-CD1700 cans and had similar, disappointing, results.
As for selling I really must get organised. I'd like to recover most of the £450 I paid. Maybe I'll start in this forum and move to Ebay if I can't get enough.

[NicolasB]

Dear me! What a lot of negative emotions in this thread!

1) Some pieces of AV equipment have good quality headphone output without the need for a dedicated headphone amp. It isn't particularly difficult to make a good quality headphone stage, it's simply that most manufacturers don't bother. If you're trying to make a good integrated amp that sells for £200, adding a good headphone stage to it might put the price up to £300. If you've got a rival who produces a similar product with a headphone stage that costs 50 pence, then one of two things is going to happen: either his product will sound as good as yours with speakers but be £100 cheaper, or it will be the same price but sound better with speakers than yours does. So, if we assume that most listeners will hardly ever use the headphone socket, there's a limit to how much money it makes sense to spend on building it.

If you're fortunate enough to be using AV equipment which does actually have good quality headphone output then, unsurprisingly, a separate headphone amp probably won't sound much better.

2) Not all headphone amps are created equal: there are very bad ones as well as some good ones (same as with almost any other kind of equipment).

3) Different sets of headphones benefit from a headphone amp to different degrees. To take an extreme example, try finding a cheap portable CD player or a flash MP3 player, and plug a pair of Sennheiser HD600 'phones straight into the headphone jack. It sounds terrible. Running the signal through a headphone amp will improve it significantly, simply because the source can't produce enough power from its batteries to sound good on its own. But try the same thing with a pair of cheap in-ear 'phones and you probably won't hear a difference.

4) Inevitably you need good 'phones and a good source to make it worthwhile. I use an Arcam DV27A as a CD player, with a Graham Slee "Solo" and Sennheiser HD650 'phones, and, if I wanted to improve the sound, I suspect the best way to do it would be to buy a better CD player (or DAC) rather than a better headphone driver.

But of course, not everyone likes the Sennheiser sound.

£450 of Slee in expensive casing is probably £150 worth of major manufacturer Headphone Amp

5) As far as the Graham Slee amp in particular is concerned, it's true that Graham Slee Projects does not enjoy the same economies of scale that a company like Sony or Denon has access to. But then again, companies of that size don't generally make dedicated headphone amps. In independent reviews the "Solo" generally compares fairly well with headphone amps that cost double or even triple the price of the Solo.

Graham Slee's whole philosophy is about value for money. Read the reviews for his phono stages - they're not state of the art, but they're exceptionally good value at the price. Quite a while ago I bought some made-up XLR interconnects from him, and the philosophy there is the same: silver-plated Neutrik connectors, high grade double-screened microphone cable, not fancy but effective and (at the time) pleasantly cheap.


Edit:

One other thing: if you think that Sennheiser headphones don't benefit from a Graham Slee amp, then ask yourself when Sennheiser themselves would chose to use a "Solo" headphone amp to show off their 600 and 650 'phones at more than one large audio exhibition.

[avanzato]

I spent about £100 on my headphone amp and it sounds nice, it also gives me the convenience of not having to power up the main system to listen by phones.
So I can't agree that as a product they're the biggest rip off around, I'm very happy with my 'value for money'.

[StevieDvd]

[QUOTE=pbirkett]


The only other possibility is that the headphones I've got, which are quite an old design, are perhaps designed for speaker amps in the first place, hence why they sound too thin on a proper headphone amp....QUOTE]

So when you upgrade your headphones can we expect a sudden rush to get a decent headphone amp to drive them? :-)

Do I think Headphone amps or high-end headphones a rip off? No.

Are they all equal? No.

Are they more expensive than need be? Yes.

I like the look of the Graham Slee but it's too pricey. I have an Ant Amber and a White Noise which together cost less than the Solo - but don't look as good. I use HD650s, HD600s and HD25sp which all sound great, though the HD25sp are not as comfortable as I'd wish.

For me the rip-off in hifi is the £10,000 speaker cables!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by NicolasB

Dear me! What a lot of negative emotions in this thread!
One other thing: if you think that Sennheiser headphones don't benefit from a Graham Slee amp, then ask yourself when Sennheiser themselves would chose to use a "Solo" headphone amp to show off their 600 and 650 'phones at more than one large audio exhibition.

OK I'll ask myself.
I think one answer must be that the Solo produces good results. Another may be that Sennheiser find a headphone amp a lot easier to transport than a full-sized amp.
There may also be marketing deals between the two companies.
None of this alters my opinion that the Solo, at £450, for a was not worth it and that there is no significant improvement, discernible to me, over several HiFi/AV amps that I've tried with headphones.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by avanzato

I spent about £100 on my headphone amp and it sounds nice, it also gives me the convenience of not having to power up the main system to listen by phones.
So I can't agree that as a product they're the biggest rip off around, I'm very happy with my 'value for money'.

I'm not suggesting that the Solo is a ripoff. In fact the service I had from Graham Slee was excellent.

[alexs2]

My own opinion on this is that a good set of phones benefits markedly from a good headphone amp,and my own experiences with an Earmax,and comparisons with headphone sockets on amps,plus other H/p amps bear out the fact that it certainly works for my system,but it all comes down to personal preferences,and whether or not the rest of the system can resolve the differences/benefits gained with a H/p amp.

I can easily tell the difference between the Earmax driving my Sennheisers,and other sources....however,the reverse is also true,in that if it doesnt produce the desired sound or benefit,there is little point in paying for one.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by alexs2

however,the reverse is also true,in that if it doesnt produce the desired sound or benefit,there is little point in paying for one.

Exactly.
That's what I feel I've done - paid £450 for a component which doesn't produce the desired benefit.

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Exactly.
That's what I feel I've done - paid £450 for a component which doesn't produce the desired benefit.

I can understand your feelings about that,and it's often difficult to arrange demonstrations of H/p gear,whereas similarly priced speakers etc can be dem'd often with minimal trouble.

My own experiences of H/p amps,and even using low powered amps directly,are that there are potentially good gains to be made,but so much comes down to the individual system,and listener.

The H/p amp i have is clearly better(to my ears)than any H/p outlet on an amp that I've yet tried,but that in no way contradicts your own feelings on that topic...there are plenty of people who wouldnt want a £450 odd pound Earmax either(when you include NOS tubes etc).

[avanzato]

Originally Posted by sceptic

I'm not suggesting that the Solo is a ripoff. In fact the service I had from Graham Slee was excellent.

Not at you but at this.

Originally Posted by pbirkett

With headphone amps that is.

This is not the first time I have posted about this in various forae, but I am just totally convinced now that for me at least, these things are one of the biggest rip offs in hifi.

I'm not really sure where this is supposed to be going as I could gather and quote many posts of Pbirkett enthusing about headphone amps, some very recent.
Where has the disillusionment come from?

[pbirkett]

Originally Posted by avanzato

I'm not really sure where this is supposed to be going as I could gather and quote many posts of Pbirkett enthusing about headphone amps, some very recent.
Where has the disillusionment come from?

Hi mate,

Perfectly fair point.

Yes I did produce some promising reviews of some headphone amps in the past. I still stand by what I say that the HEadsave Classic is a really good little headphone amp for the money... but that is relative to the other amps I've owned.

OK, I've owned the following, and used the following headphones with -

Meier Audio Corda HA-1 - ~ £220 - Beyer DT931, DT770, DT880, DT990, AKG K271S, Sennheiser HD580
Musical Fidelity X-Can v2 - £100 - Beyer DT531, DT770, Sony MDR-CD3000
Musical Fidelity X-Can v3 - £250 - Beyer DT531, Sony MDR-CD3000, Sennheiser HD650
Perreaux SXH1 - £275 - Beyer DT531, Sony MDR-CD3000
Rega Ear - £120 - Beyer DT531, Sony MDR-CD1700
Headsave Classic - £70 (that what it cost me anyway) - Beyer DT531

Out of all of those, I can honestly say that the Classic is every bit as good as any of those.

The problem has always come when I have then compared it with the integrated amp in the tried and tested way for an audiophile: That is, to listen to the new toy for an extended period of time, then go back to the "old" one to see if your improvements are realised.

Its always as soon as I do this that the realisation kicks in.

I am guilty as charged of getting a toy and thinking its the mutts nuts, only to find out later that it wasnt what I hoped it would be.

I believe the phrase is "The Emporers new clothes".

HTHs.

PS. I am perfectly open to the prospect I may be "deaf". When I was comparing the Corda some time ago with my audiophile mate, he accussed me of being deaf because he thought there was a big difference and I thought there was none. Fair enough, but to me that does suggest that its quite subtle, either that or my hearing is a lot worse than I thought. Strange though this might sound, I am sure I've heard more difference between cables than I have between these amps and my stereo amp.

[NicolasB]

I gather there's a significant gap in quality between most of the headphone amps pbirkett is talking about, and higher-end models like the Solo, Earmax, or Sugden Headmaster. I recall one review, for example, in which the reviewer reckoned that the mk III Solo (which was definitely not as good as the mk IV) was about comparable in quality to an X-Cans, if you take out the valves and put in much better quality ones, and upgrade the power supply, and do one or two other tweaks as well.

I also have to say that, having tried both, the Sennheiser HD650 is (to my ears) hugely much better than the Beyer DT-531. But, pbirkett presumably doesn't agree with me about that (or he wouldn't still be using the 531s), so I guess that's a practical example of different people liking different sounds. It's not a question of being deaf (well, maybe it is, as I am actually partially deaf!) it's just a matter of differing tastes. Obviously you have to go with what you like, not what everybody else likes.