Cry for help - what to choose?

[Saito]

I finally decided it is time to put my money where my ears are. I commute to work every day which results in at least 2 hours of travel a day so some decent quality music is not just appreciated but more or less required for me to survive the day.

Besides the commute I will also be using it at home mainly for listing to music and playing games on occasion.

I've been reading about the place (and other places) for a while now but some things are still quite confusion a lot of statements seem to oppose eachother on the same topic.

The upgrade I currently have in mind is the following:

Headphones: Sennheiser hd 650

- I’ve read that some headphones “work” better with certain types of music. I’m mostly a Metal fan think of Savatage, Dio, Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Metallica and I also listen to a number of (hard)rock bands like Alice Cooper, Guns N’ Roses and KISS. I also have a thing for female fronted bands. So the main question is is the HD 650 the headphones I should get (in that price class) for music I like?

Headphone amplifiers: Headroom Total Airhead

- This confuses me a bit more then the headphones as I’m quite sure that - regardless what kind of music I play - the HD 650 is going to sound great. To be honest I don’t know what to expect from a portable amp.. these things are easily 150 to 250$ is it really worth all the extra money and what amp would be most suitable for someone who needs to carry it around as he commutes at least 2 hours every day by bus/train.

- Is this portable amp “enough” for the HD 650? Reading about it seems that portable amps don’t really cut it for the higher range headphones. Is this true and if so even if its not perfect is it still worth it?

- Anyone know of a good shop in The Netherlands where I can try the HD 650 with a number of portable amps so that I get a better feel how much of a difference it makes?

Music Player: Unsure

- I currently have an Samsung P2 and am quite happy with it but it has seen better days after about 3 years of being in my pocket/bag. It’s the last thing I’m going to replace in my upgrade spree. How important is the mp3 player when it comes to the audio quality when there is an amp in between it and the headphones?

- Currently I’m looking at the Samsung P3, SanDisk Sansa Clip and awaiting the new Microsoft Zune. Since I’m going from stock IE’s to high quality headphones with an amp and a mp3 player to match I will also need to be able to bring my music with me in the highest possible quality. So the MP3 player I’m going to get will need flac support and a very decently sized internal storage. That is the main reason I’m looking forward to the new zune as it is most likely going to be a lot bigger then the majority of the current media players out there.

What else?

- What else can you recommend to make my music listing a better experience?
- ??

Thank you all in advance for any and all replies

:dt880smile:

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Saito

Is this portable amp “enough” for the HD 650? Reading about it seems that portable amps don’t really cut it for the higher range headphones. Is this true and if so even if its not perfect is it still worth it?

How important is the mp3 player when it comes to the audio quality when there is an amp in between it and the headphones?

Don't. the HD650 and a portable amp is a quality mismatch of significant proportions. Portables don't have the grunt to run those phones properly. It's not worth it because it's like buying a Ferrari, and taking it to the corner shop on Sundays. They're also big and not suited to travel.

You'll hear from people who say "Well, mine go way loud enough with a Fiio" (15 quid amp), but volume isn't the real purpose of an amp. 650s need power to activate the drivers and reach their full potential - that means a good desktop amp.

Spend your money smarter, get 2 phones; canals or a portable for travel, and a pair for home that don't need an amp. Grado's do metal very well, so check them out. with easy to drive phones like these, I'd consider looking at the source you're plugging them into, rather than amping them.

As for players, I've found a good pair of portables/canals will make a bigger difference to SQ, than trying to sort out which player sounds best. With a decent pair, an amp isn't necessary.

[LFC_SL]

The Fiio is cheap rubbish, yes, and £ for £ a desktop amp vastly outperforms a portable amp, but if you have a need for one then there are many good choices out there

Saying that after the Tomahawk I am done with portable amps

Saito, definitely buy yourself a DAP before getting an amp. Source, headphones and source of recording make much more of a difference. An amp is maybe that tweaking of 5-10%

The HD650 is a home hi-fi headphone that requires an amp to drive as you will not have a portable powerful enough alone to drive it. It's 1/4" plug is an indication of that. If you are happy carrying something like that on your head out and about then fair enough

[Kilian Collins]

The HD650 is also open backed so to use one of those on public transport is quite unfair on other passengers. The two headphone solution is what I'd go for. The HD650 which I have and love for the mostly acoustic music I listen to, is considered by many too polite or reserved for heavier duty music. The Grado's as previously mentioned are preferred by many.

[Saito]

Probably a very silly question but what is DAP and why do I need one :]?

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Saito

Probably a very silly question but what is DAP and why do I need one :]?

Digital Audio Player (iPod etc) But I think he meant a DAC.

[Saito]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

Digital Audio Player (iPod etc) But I think he meant a DAC.

Ahh yeah I have an Samsung P2 at this point in time but will be upgrading that as well.

I know what a DAC is (or at least I know what it does)

An DAC changes an digital signal to a analog signal. But if you have a digital audio player you it basically has one build in right?

The quality of the DAC also has an effect on the music quality but oddly enough the DAC information is never displayed on DAP's as far as i've seen it at least.

[tudj]

Originally Posted by Saito

Ahh yeah I have an Samsung P2 at this point in time but will be upgrading that as well.

I know what a DAC is (or at least I know what it does)

An DAC changes an digital signal to a analog signal. But if you have a digital audio player you it basically has one build in right?

The quality of the DAC also has an effect on the music quality but oddly enough the DAC information is never displayed on DAP's as far as i've seen it at least.

Anything that you can plug headphones into has a DAC, also anything with any kind of analogue output like RCA etc.

Most things like TV's, DAP's etc will use a really cheap DAC, so an external dedicated is going to be better.

They won't advertise which DAC chips are used in DAPs as 99.45046% of the population has never ever heard of a DAC.

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Saito

But if you have a digital audio player you it basically has one build in right?

The quality of the DAC also has an effect on the music quality but oddly enough the DAC information is never displayed on DAP's as far as i've seen it at least.

I think he's suggesting getting a better DAC/soundcard for your PC. The stock soundcard won't be doing any favours to a decent phone, and, I'd agree with LFC, get a DAC for your PC, before you think about an amp.

DACs aren't one of those things that are specced on players - most people couldn't care less, and also most players are not capable of having an external one docked on to upgrade it. For the sort of phones that use them, they're good enough.

[LFC_SL]

I did mean a portable audio player because I skim read the first post and saw the headphone would be used on a commute

Having read the first post again, I would recommend two headphones. One for home, one for the road

's advocate

I use my Senn HD600 at home but have Westone UM2 and Audio-Technica ESW9 for the road

[Saito]

Originally Posted by LFC_SL

I did mean a portable audio player because I skim read the first post and saw the headphone would be used on a commute

Having read the first post again, I would recommend two headphones. One for home, one for the road

's advocate

I use my Senn HD600 at home but have Westone UM2 and Audio-Technica ESW9 for the road

Yeah, I was somewhat thinking of that to. But in that case the home one will be last on the list. The one for commuting is more important.

@ Drubbing

Well the home equipment will be a low priority I already have an above average setup at home just no headphones. If an DAC has so much effect on the sound its kind of odd that its never covered even in reviews and such. Is there actually an way to test a DAC other then having good hearing?

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by Saito

@ Drubbing

If an DAC has so much effect on the sound its kind of odd that its never covered even in reviews and such. Is there actually an way to test a DAC other then having good hearing?

You're not looking for them. There are plenty of DAC reviews out there, it's knowing that you want one that then makes them easy to find.

CDP's have DAC's in them, so reviewers are essentially reviewing the quality of the DAC, as it's that which dictates how it sounds. Soundcards do many of the functions DAC's do, Receivers have DAC's, and you can buy dedicated DAC's and external DAC/amp combo's.

I bought a DACmagic
DacMagic Digital to Analogue Converter

Source is an often neglected part of setting up a headphone rig - a lot of the talk is on phones and amps. But an amp will do no favours to a phone using a poor source.

Unless you can test one instore, you have to go off reviews. But for me, a good DAC was a significant improvement from onboard, and a not-much-cheaper portable amp/DAC (you pay a premium for portability).

What I got was an upgrade in clarity, seperation and dynamic range that revealed the difference between my well recorded stuff and the rest. DACs can do more with the good stuff.

[roosta]

can you give a bit more information about your travel please? things like do you carry a bag with you all the time you could pile an ipod, amplifier and large headphones into, or do you want to be able to stash it all in a jacket pocket?

if you want full size cans and have space to put them, something like ultrasone 780's, sennheiser HD25's, audio technica ESW9's will do you a real treat. just make sure their sound signature is to your liking (ultrasones are slightly bass heavy, quite sharp treble, but very detailed. sennheiser has less accurate bass, but overall a more laid back and smoother sound. ESW9's are very smooth, good vocals, but dont isolate as well)

a portable amp isnt essentual, but it will make an improvement. how much depends on the headphone chosen. again, only get one if you have plenty enough space for all the gear. ask over at headfi for advise on these, my knowledge is limited to what ive heard.

theres a fair bit of choice with DAP's (digital media players, also called PMP's (personal media players)), but it mostly depends on how much music you have and in what quality. the cowon D2 has a good quality DAC and headphone amplifier built in, as does the Zune. the ipod classic does a good job as well. the ipod classic has a capacity of 120GB, and zunes can be found with 80 and 120gb of storage as well. however the D2 only has 16gb.

smaller DAP's such as ipod shuffles/nanos etc generally have cheaper and poorer inner components, and are best avoided if sound quality is the primary concern.


if you dont fancy carrying all that stuff around IEMs (In Ear Monitors aka canal phones) are definately worth a look. i own a pair of head direct RE0's which cost me just £60 but the detail they provide is well out of this price bracket. they are commonly compaired to shure SE310's, sennheiser IE7 etymotic er6p, which which cost 2-4 times the price. they play just fine out of an ipod classic, but sound even better out an ibasso D10, though not enough for me to deal with the hassle of carrying another box of tricks.

if you dont like IEM's, yuin do some classic earbud style headphones. PK2's have had rave reviews, and the OK2 are meant to be even better. they are about £50 + shipping. the PK1 and OK1 are supposed to have even better SQ again, but need an amp as they are 200ohm phones!

hope atleast some of that is of use.

[Saito]

Originally Posted by roosta

can you give a bit more information about your travel please? things like do you carry a bag with you all the time you could pile an ipod, amplifier and large headphones into, or do you want to be able to stash it all in a jacket pocket?

if you want full size cans and have space to put them, something like ultrasone 780's, sennheiser HD25's, audio technica ESW9's will do you a real treat. just make sure their sound signature is to your liking (ultrasones are slightly bass heavy, quite sharp treble, but very detailed. sennheiser has less accurate bass, but overall a more laid back and smoother sound. ESW9's are very smooth, good vocals, but dont isolate as well)

a portable amp isnt essentual, but it will make an improvement. how much depends on the headphone chosen. again, only get one if you have plenty enough space for all the gear. ask over at headfi for advise on these, my knowledge is limited to what ive heard.

theres a fair bit of choice with DAP's (digital media players, also called PMP's (personal media players)), but it mostly depends on how much music you have and in what quality. the cowon D2 has a good quality DAC and headphone amplifier built in, as does the Zune. the ipod classic does a good job as well. the ipod classic has a capacity of 120GB, and zunes can be found with 80 and 120gb of storage as well. however the D2 only has 16gb.

smaller DAP's such as ipod shuffles/nanos etc generally have cheaper and poorer inner components, and are best avoided if sound quality is the primary concern.


if you dont fancy carrying all that stuff around IEMs (In Ear Monitors aka canal phones) are definately worth a look. i own a pair of head direct RE0's which cost me just £60 but the detail they provide is well out of this price bracket. they are commonly compaired to shure SE310's, sennheiser IE7 etymotic er6p, which which cost 2-4 times the price. they play just fine out of an ipod classic, but sound even better out an ibasso D10, though not enough for me to deal with the hassle of carrying another box of tricks.

if you dont like IEM's, yuin do some classic earbud style headphones. PK2's have had rave reviews, and the OK2 are meant to be even better. they are about £50 + shipping. the PK1 and OK1 are supposed to have even better SQ again, but need an amp as they are 200ohm phones!

hope atleast some of that is of use.

Sorry for the slow reply,

Yes, I usually carry an backpack with me so I have a bit more room.

@ Drubbing

I looked at the link you posted.. I think that is a bit much to carry around with me all the time

[Drubbing]

I wasn't suggesting it for travel; it isn't portable. I mentioned it as part of answering your questions about the worth of DACs, and not seeing any reviews of them anywhere.