[nate247]

Hope you guys can help me with my conundrum.

I recently built myself a high end PC and am using the onboard sound outputs of the motherboard (a Core i7 Asus P6T Deluxe) which I am told is supposed to be pretty decent, but having been on Mac's for years I have no idea whether I should in fact be looking for a separate internal sound card instead or is the inbuilt motherboard stuff actually decent these days?

Anyway, I have no headphones at the minute but my neighbours have just had a child (with another on the way) so my speakers are having to go lower and lower every evening to the point where by I just wanna splash out and start listening to some tunes again and so now want some decent headphones.

My first question obviously is whether or not you think I should invest in a separate sound card or not. Second question is what headphones are currently the best in your views for the £200/£300 mark and thirdly, given my musical taste which is largely R&B, Hip-Hop, Pop Music i.e like Jacko stuff (mainly lots of big beat, bright sounding music) would your recomendation change for something different?

A couple of years back I had a pair of sennheiser hd600's and really liked them but had no idea whether I was getting the maximum out of them given what I have been reading here on the forums about some headphones needing additional amplification.

I would appreciate any help you can offer though as basically I have a blank canvass, don't mind throwing a sensible amount of money at it but want my music on my PC to really blow my socks off. If I need a sound card, again, any recomendations would be great and I thank you all in advance for the advice that you are likely to give...

All the best
Nathan

[Drubbing]

At 300ohms, Your 600s would have benefited a lot from a headphone amp. High impedance (120ohm+) phones usually need amping for best results - while they'll 'play' on anything, you don't get a full return on their cost otherwise.

You usually find these at the high end - in the price bracket you're looking at. But lower impedance ones will sound very close to their best w/out amping, and there are ones in that price range - Grado's, for one, check the impedance specs for which ones. My Beyerdynamic DT250 (80ohm) ran pretty nicely w/out an amp til I got one.

Given you've built a PC, I've no idea how good the card is - give it a try with good phones, you may not need to upgrade. If you do upgrade it, there are heaps out there around the 100quid mark that are good.

You could go open or closed phones for home use, and open sound better, but leak sound in and out, but not enough to annoy neighbours.

[nate247]

Thats some great advice, thank you drubbing...

I didn't think I was getting the maximum possible from my old HD600's and so that in many ways is why I thought I would ask the experts here.

How much in which case would a decent amp to drive these things be? Also, turning the coin on the other side slightly, what is currently the sweet spot set of headphones to use in this sort of setup "without amplification". I.e which ones will hit their peak performance best without amplification.

I think perhaps it might be a good idea to maybe listen to the best headphones (with amplification) and then perhaps the best without, just to see is if I need to spend the extra £££ and indeed to see if I can actually hear the difference...

Although still only 28, my ears arn't quite what they used to be in my latter teen's / early twenties lol

[Steven]

Who cares about what you have been told? What matters is what you hear. Stick with your internal motherboard first. If you do not like what you hear then think about upgrade then. Don't suddenly decide there is something wrong with the sound based on what other people say

Buying a sound card would in my mind be largely a waste of money. Far more bang for buck would be to buy a DAC, as you can use your onboard to output to one
Amp through PC sound Card

If you budget does not allow for an upgrade in one go, then if you choose to go down that route, buy a good DAC now and worry about an amp later when you have saved up more money

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by nate247

I think perhaps it might be a good idea to maybe listen to the best headphones (with amplification) and then perhaps the best without, just to see is if I need to spend the extra £££ and indeed to see if I can actually hear the difference...

This would be misleading - different phones will sound different - you'll either like one or the other, and amping doesn't really enter into which will be 'better'.

With audio there really isn't a 'best' - the most expensive phones are not necessarily the ones you'll like. I didn't realise you still had the 600s, while they do need amping to perform to their capability, it's no good trying to do so without a good source

LFC always has good advice, it's a good idea to build from source if poss, then if you do get phones that don't require an amp, you're laughing.

I found I needed to go for the Cambridge DACmagic to get really nice sound from my PC, and now, some of my CDs are exposed for their poor recordings. So really good isn't always best.

[nate247]

Thats great... thanks for the advice guys. It is appreciated
I will stick with the hardware I have for now in which case and see what happens.

The headphones that I have on my shortlist currently are:

Sennheiser HD595
Sennheiser HD 650
Monster Dr Dre Beat's

Are there any others that I should be looking at or are these a good starting place?

Thanks again
Nathan

[Steven]

I own the Senn HD600 (see kit list). You can regard it as a springboard or a keeper because it does many things well when you achieve synergy

Synergy being the key word. Components that come together to give you the sound you want. x might not necessarily be the best in y, but the shortfall is made up by this or that component who prop it back up

Hope that made sense. You don't need to spend the earth as synergy equally applies at a budget alike

A long time now, but apart from your own concerns, was there something about the HD600 sound that you did not like? Maybe worth now going in another direction. Perhaps Audio-Technica who are cited for their sound stage and female vocal performance. My ESW9 is for portable use so perhaps somebody else who owns one of their home headphones. I recall somebody around here being one

[Uriel]

Well, does your PC have much fan noise or is it silent? If theres any fan noise open headphones will be competing with it.

If that's the case you might consider closed headphones, or even ones with active noise reduction.

I note your preference for close miked music (studio pop etc) and the requirement for a headphone amp to get the best out of your HD600s. These are a great set of headphones. You shouldn't even consider the HD595s, which are a big step down from them.

How about an Asus Xonar ST (pci) or STX (pci-e) soundcard? These have excellent audio quality and a built in headphone amp. They aren't the last word in headphone amplification but should do as well as some of the more inexpensive dedicated amps on the market.

These cards also have the benefit of Dolby Headphone, which you can use if you like it. I've tried the HD600s with DH on a Xonar D2 (similar card without the headphone amp) and can attest to them having great synergy. You can set it up to simulate stereo speakers and I could have mistaken the effect being in a near-perfect listening room with a great set of speakers when I closed my eyes.

Not everyone likes Dolby Headphone but you can turn it off and just listen in Hi-Fi mode (with no DSPs added) if you want to.

[Steven]

Closed and open headphones have such different dynamics and you can get good and bad headphones equally in either category...
Saying that a lot of people prefer the expansiveness of open headphones

Noise is something that can be rectified. I would not want to limit auditory experience and strike off headphones off the list on that

[Owen824]

can recommend the beats by dr dre. had mine for a few months now and use them quite a lot- work, home and planes, trains and automobiles 8-).

As you listen to a lot of the music i listen to, they are great for hip hop and r&b as they produce excellent bass while still staying clean and crisp. go down to an apple store if one is close by as i think they have them on display normally.

[nate247]

Thanks again guys. To respond first to LFC-SL, I actually quite liked the 600's I had but having recently moved house and the neighbors confirming they couldn't hear my music through the walls I sold them (as literally used them once every say six months).

However sod's law, I moved the home office / stereo room in to another room (more space and better layout) and they happened to mention they can just hear the music through the walls and would I mind keeping it a little quieter after 8pm (which I am happy to do as they are really nice people) but just a frustration having sold my HD600's.

Thanks to Owen824 for the beats recomendation. I have heard lots of good things about these and am wondering if they will work best without an amp and likewise are suited to the types of music I play.

However I do have a soft spot for the Sennheiser HD series and given the 650's are supposed to have better base response, I am sorely tempted to give these a try also but am worried I might then need to fork out for an amp and possibly sound card as they might perhaps be more fussy than the Beat's.

Decisions decisions lol

Thanks so far for all the advice though guys. Its deffo very very very helpful

[Steven]

There is a lot of HD600 v HD650 discussion online. Do not be taken in - neither is "better" than the other as it is purely preferential. They are that similar. And don't be confused by the numbering as the HD650 was never the reference headphone the marketing speak proclaimed, as now resolved by the HD800

Listen to them side by side and you will hear what I mean. A mid-bass bias in the HD650 but extended peaks and smoother mids in the HD600. And as I said above, depending on the rest of the set-up one might synergise better than the other

[nate247]

Blimey... just doing a little spring clean and came across the receipt for the HD600's that I have since sold on. I only paid £149.00 for then at Digital Village. Should have snapped up a couple of pairs

Anyway, I decided to go with a pair of HD650's for now as you guys know your AV and I value your opinions.

£200 delivered from a guy on eBay, new in box with receipts etc. So I guess it was fate as they were basically the only pair on them.

As to driving these things. Is the general consensus to see how they sound first with my PC before then investing in a headphone amp (as that extra expense may not be needed). Or is it just a plain fact with these headphones that I ought to be getting an amp at the same time as well?

Hoping to get them by the end of this week so will obviously fill you all in with my initial thoughts anyway.

Thanks again for the help thus far. Getting quite exited now just thinking of how good the sound quality could be (sad I know) lol

[HiFi Headphones]

Nice choice of headphones!

I have a pair of HD650's at home and it is possible to just plug them directly into my PC or laptop soundcard and listen. However, adding a decent headphone amp (or USB DAC with headphone amp combination) opens them right up.

The HD650 is notoriously hard to drive and it's usually best to add an amp (depending on the quality of the headphone output on your source).

In my opinion the HD650's sound distant without amping. With an amp the bass is given more strength and definition, while the trebles have much more bite. They turn into a far more involving pair of headphones.

Shaun

[nate247]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Thats great to know

The main use will be both music listening as well as some hobbiest music production (on Reason 4.0 and Ableton Live 7). Accuracy and involvement are basically by key desires and likewise concern.

The USB amp sounds like an option though as currently the 3.5m jack on my PC is occupied to an amp driving the speakers. I did however think about wiring up the front headphone jack on the PC to overcome this but if I need to get an amp then I guess its just as well to go the USB route.

Will this require any drivers etc to be installed or do many USB amps just plug and play?

Sorry to ask so many questions but want to ensure I make the right decision

[HiFi Headphones]

The iBasso USB DACs/Amps are all just plug and play. No drivers to install on XP or Vista. I believe it's also the same on a Mac.

[Drubbing]

I agree with hifi. Buying phones like those and not amping them is like buying a Ferrari and leaving it parked in the drivewa,y and taking it only taking it out in really heavy traffic for a bit of a pootle.

Yeah they'll look nice, you'll feel good listening to them, but there's a lot you miss out on, so you many as well have got a Honda Civic instead.

Debates rage on how much to spend on an amp for them. I'm not going there again. Suffice to say a mains powered desktop amp is what you should be considering.

[HiFi Headphones]

A good desktop amp (e.g. Graham Slee Solo) and a USB DAC (e.g. DACMagic) will give the best possible sound from your PC. This will avoid the nasty onboard soundcard and give a dedicated amp for the headphones. Mind you it's starting to get really expensive now!

A more affordable alternative is a combined USB DAC and headphone amp, e.g. iBasso D2 or D3. It won't drive the headphones quite as well as something like a Graham Slee Solo, but will give a good improvement. Just the improvement attained by avoiding the soundcard is worth it in my opinion, never mind the increased output power.

We've had one customer sell their Graham Slee Solo amp after trying out the iBasso D2 - Headroom Total Bithead or Pro-Ject Head Box II - HiFi Headphones Forum - online headphone & earphone community forums

Also see this review of the iBasso D2 on CNET. Normally CNET is not the best place to go for audio reviews, but Nate Lanxon is really into headphones and higher end audio and his reviews are on the button. He tested with HD650's.

[nate247]

Thats great guys. Thanks again

Headphones should be here tomorrow so I will start looking in to purchasing an iBasso D2 over the weekend perhaps. I think this is right on the cusp of what I want to spend and so the D2 looks ideal.

[MikeyD]

Originally Posted by HiFi Headphones

Nice choice of headphones!

I have a pair of HD650's at home and it is possible to just plug them directly into my PC or laptop soundcard and listen. However, adding a decent headphone amp (or USB DAC with headphone amp combination) opens them right up.

The HD650 is notoriously hard to drive and it's usually best to add an amp (depending on the quality of the headphone output on your source).

In my opinion the HD650's sound distant without amping. With an amp the bass is given more strength and definition, while the trebles have much more bite. They turn into a far more involving pair of headphones.

Shaun

Hey, just wondering.. Is a high-end Headphone Amp worth the money?

[nate247]

Ok, so I have pretty much made my mind up that I will buy an iBasso D2 from you HiFi Headphones.

Only problem I forsee is that the HD650's don't has not come with a 3.5mm jack but the larger 6.35mm Jack (I think it is referred to).

Does this mean I will now also need to buy a new set of 3.5mm cables for the HD650's as well as the headphone amplifier?

Many thanks,
Nathan

[nate247]

Also (two last question's sorry), but will the iBasso D2 yield accurate results in order to do some very occasional hobbiest music production and will it show as a separate amp or something in the software settings?

Secondly will I need to switch between my main speakers and headphones in Windows or will they both play simultaionsly? I would prefer simultaionusly as that was I can just turn my amp off when not using the speakers (most of the time) and save having to manually switch within windows each time between headphones and main speakers.

Thanks again for any advice. Nathan

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by nate247

Ok, so I have pretty much made my mind up that I will buy an iBasso D2 from you HiFi Headphones.

The Basso will go loud enough, but with demanding phones its not about volume, it's about having enough power to activate the drivers and realise the capability through the freq range, and achieve the quality of sound, sound-stage, bass etc that they're capable of.

But people buy expensive phnoes like these, and underpower them and say they're great. Sre they probably sound nicer than a lot of phones, but it's a Ferrari that's parked in your driveway.

With phones like these, hi fi's recommendation of the Slee desktop is far better suited. The Basso will offer minimal improvement, as he said. with portable amps, you get very little for your money, as you're also paying for portability. Having both a portable and desktop myself, the difference is pretty clear. The desktop cost me less, but does far more.

[nate247]

Ok... so maybe I need to rethink this lol

I am curious as to whether any of these amps run whats called ASIO drivers which is whats mainly used to minimise latency when using some of the music production software I have (such as Reason & Ableton Live).

I doubt if they do but just wondered if anyone knew as another option is for me to buy a proper professional USB of Firewire external sound card for around the £200 mark which should yield some fairly decent results (poss not as good as dedicated headphone amp) but still perhaps better than built in.

Man I am soooo confused. All I know is I have a pair of HD650's that I haven't yet been able to listen too because I don't have anything to plug them in to as of yet lol

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by nate247

I am curious as to whether any of these amps run whats called ASIO drivers which is whats mainly used to minimise latency when using some of the music production software I have (such as Reason & Ableton Live).

No. ASIO is a protocol for direct connection to a soundcard and is windows specific. An amp would have nothing to do with this.

[nate247]

I didn't think so but thanks for confirming buddy. So may have to go pro sound card after all then in order to tick both listening and production boxes.

Wish I'd never sold my Focusrite Saffire now as that was a great little box of tricks

[Steven]

Oh hey now, are you the person who decided to dump the Mac stuff and went back to Windows? *shakes head* Relevant because when I upgrade my DAC, my Ediro UA-25 will be redundant. I won't be selling for a fortnight and it'll go up on the forum when it does, but a heads up

See my posts here for an explanation of Asio:
Dac straight to power amp

Disclaimer: my posts are from experience of XP. Vista has a slightly different architecture but I understand asio and its ilk is still used

[Reano]

If you are doing hobby music production always try to take the sound card 'out' of the PC as you can find you can get nasty 'pop's and interference especially if there are issues with your sound card/power supply, etc.

Look for a sound card from M-Audio or creative's Pro editions (x-fi pro is good) which are very good for also driving headphones. You can later use these to connect up instruments, mixing desks, etc. They also work well with specific PC games too.

[nate247]

Originally Posted by LFC_SL

Oh hey now, are you the person who decided to dump the Mac stuff and went back to Windows? *shakes head*

Yes, I am afraid the Apple tinted glasses I had been wearing for so long were finally removed when after 4 replacement Mac Pro's and a replacement monitor 30" cinema display, Apple decided they had no idea what was causing the screen to flicker with white bits all over it (as diagnosed in person each time by an engineer) and decided to bury their head in the sand and just ignore me come the end.

Took over three months and I hardly ever hassled them either. Was pretty nice about it all in fairness as there are much bigger things in life to worry about even if I did spend over £4k on all the kit and approx £10k on previous gear with them (so pretty good customer I felt).

Anyway, just got fed up of waiting to see it it was a driver issue with the new ATi cards and a specific batch of monitors etc etc and decided to stump for a refund and built myself a top end PC rig of similar spec for half the price.

I am going off topic here sorry but needless to say I understand the benefits of Mac's and Music (amongst other things). Thus the reason I guess that I had been on the platform for over 10 years. But I am where I am PC wise and am not really regretting the move at all bar this little situation I find myself in now as to how best to power the HD650's...

Having read the thread you linked to though LFC_SL, my motherboard on the PC is a pretty top end ASUS jobbie with digital coax out, digital optical out, firewire (amongst many other outputs). So would you say that perhaps its best to just take the sound out from the PC all together via digital out and then just plug speakers and headphones in to a standalone amp? Or would you go the route of an external sound module suitable for both music production and music listening as I mentioned above?

I guess this question applies to anyone and again, I cannot thank you all for the expert advice you are giving. I hope to repay it someday

[nate247]

EDIT: Just for the record (to those who are in a similar situation to myself) i.e wondering if headphone amping makes a difference and not having the expert ear of some of the guys above whom I hold in much higher esteem hi-fi wise than myself.

Having just plugged the headphones in to my PC directly (i.e headphone socket) I can quite honestly say that they sound very flat with no external amping / processing. Having used an external pro amp with my HD600's I am sad to say plugging them in directly is only really using a small amount of what top end headphones can produce and this is coming from me (just your average Joe) and even I can tell a difference.

Looks like this could turn in to a rather expensive couple of days for me buying amp's / external sound cards