[ady]

Hi all,

Wondering if any fellow uk avforums members got one of these and if so please if you could let me know what cans you are using and what you think.

Just placed an order for mine, feel like a school kid all over again lol.

Ady

[Drubbing]

I know someone who has the compass and likes it very much. However, I believe it's meant for easy to drive phones, and this guy is running an AD900.

The 650 is probably a lot harder to drive, at 300ohms, I'd suggest they need a desktop amp - so the compass may not be able to get the best from them.

There are people on other forums such as head fi that are running AKG 701 and DT880 with a compass, and wax lyrical about them, as often happens there. But there's no way the compass will run those adequately.

[ady]

Hi Drubbing,

I guess I will only find out if I am happy with it after burning in a good few hours with the gear. I had a listen with the HD650 on friends setup and they do shine when they get some good power running through them.

Compass+HD650 combo should last me a while, but as you said a proper amp might be needed in the future. I am very interested to hear the difference between standard and balanced, so maybe a balanced amp.

Didn't realise the AKG701 need that much juice to run, they sounded pretty good even from my mates cowon S9.

[Drubbing]

That's the thing; the phones you mention here need power, that's what they're designed to run on.

I'm a burn in heretic, but getting to know gear together for a few hours is obviously the only way to hear what you're getting - it's not always apparent from the moment you try them out, your ears need ot get used to what you're hearing.

Sure, any phone will run just about anything, and sound nice, if unable to reach decent volume. THe HD800 will run off a portable player too - but you'd be mad to spend that kind of money and do that.

Top enders like the 650/701 need good sources and amp to work to their capabilities - otherwise you've got massive quality mismatches and a huge waste of money that could have been spent on easier to drive phones that run far nearer their best with the least intervention - often they sound a lot better.

[chum_2000_uk]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

I know someone who has the compass and likes it very much. However, I believe it's meant for easy to drive phones, and this guy is running an AD900.

The 650 is probably a lot harder to drive, at 300ohms, I'd suggest they need a desktop amp - so the compass may not be able to get the best from them.

There are people on other forums such as head fi that are running AKG 701 and DT880 with a compass, and wax lyrical about them, as often happens there. But there's no way the compass will run those adequately.

Drubbing, what are you talking about!? Really not sure what you are basing your replies on - the Compass was designed using the HD650s, among others, as sample phones. You can be damn sure it will drive them effectively!

You say that you suggest using a desktop amp to run the HD650s? What exactly do you class the Compass as!?

I actually have the Compass and HD650s, and I suggest to the OP that they won't be disappointed. I have a suggestion for you Drubbing, don't comment on gear you don't own or haven't even listened to.

[ady]

Hi chum,

the main reason I went for the compass over other options was mainly because of the great reviews on headfi. Should fit well in my setup until I feel the need to upgrade, was tempted to go down the little dot route, get their new dac and mk5/7 but felt the compass should do for now.

currently running the HD650's off my Yamaha AV amp and very impressed but hope the new purchase will make the cans really shine.

so far the new cans experience has been amazing, feels like everything I am listening to is for the first time :D

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by chum_2000_uk

Drubbing, what are you talking about!? Really not sure what you are basing your replies on - the Compass was designed using the HD650s, among others, as sample phones. You can be damn sure it will drive them effectively!

There are some audio basics, and you don't need to hear everything out there to know what can run on what - To The Best Of Its Capability.

The compass is a DAC with an amp, not an amp with a DAC, so it's power output is going to be far lower, and high impedance phones need power. I've read up on the compass, and not going to take a cottage industry manufacturers' word for performance, capability or development. Particulalry one whose target market is head fi members.

I'm basing my comments on the experiences of people I know, and who know their stuff, and whose opinion I trust, who have run equally hard to drive phones on their compass. As an owner yourself, you disagree, so fine. Others here can decide based on the range of opinions expressed.

It appears the compass does a good job, as you've experienced it - practically anything with a DAC and an amp will to some degree - even my 3move portable would probably run the 650.

But its about getting such phones to perform to the level they were designed for, and unless you yourself have tried them with something else, then you don't have a point of comparison either.

I'm purely trying to caution people against running high end phones with underpowered gear, which is a fair and reasonable comment.

Another caution is using head fi as a source of information. If people here think I'm talking out of my arse about stuff I haven't heard, then head fi is not the place to go. There are people there (and lots of them) that swear the HD800 is going to be fine with portable devices.

They also have legions of threads there about 30 quid DACs being significantly better than gear 10 times the price. Products which I have tried, and it's all guff.

[ady]

I am pretty sure that an ipod wont bring out the true potential of the new HD800's, as for working fine...I am sure it will make some noise.

I think I also read the same thread, if someone wants to pay £1000 for a set of cans and use on a pod thats their call, doubt there would be many out there who would go down that route lol.

Thanks for the advice Drubbing.

[chum_2000_uk]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

There are some audio basics, and you don't need to hear everything out there to know what can run on what - To The Best Of Its Capability.

The compass is a DAC with an amp, not an amp with a DAC, so it's power output is going to be far lower, and high impedance phones need power. I've read up on the compass, and not going to take a cottage industry manufacturers' word for performance, capability or development. Particulalry one whose target market is head fi members.

I'm basing my comments on the experiences of people I know, and who know their stuff, and whose opinion I trust, who have run equally hard to drive phones on their compass. As an owner yourself, you disagree, so fine. Others here can decide based on the range of opinions expressed.

It appears the compass does a good job, as you've experienced it - practically anything with a DAC and an amp will to some degree - even my 3move portable would probably run the 650.

But its about getting such phones to perform to the level they were designed for, and unless you yourself have tried them with something else, then you don't have a point of comparison either.

I'm purely trying to caution people against running high end phones with underpowered gear, which is a fair and reasonable comment.

Another caution is using head fi as a source of information. If people here think I'm talking out of my arse about stuff I haven't heard, then head fi is not the place to go. There are people there (and lots of them) that swear the HD800 is going to be fine with portable devices.

They also have legions of threads there about 30 quid DACs being significantly better than gear 10 times the price. Products which I have tried, and it's all guff.

Drubbing, I am not sure why you are sh*tting on Head-fi so much? I have used the forum a reasonable amount, have read thousands of posts there and made a few too. It is just like any other popular forum - yes there is loads of useless information from people who clearly don't know what their talking about. The same can be said of any forum - AV forums included. However, being a dedicated headphones forum, the general level of expertise there in that area is greater than here. There are some well respected members there with 30+ years of headphone and headphone related gear experience - don't tell me that they don't know a thing or two about the subject. These are guys who haven't just listened casually to headphones for a couple of years, they have built or modified their own equipment too. As you can see, I am not talking about the kids there who buy £30 cmoys and claim that their 300ohm cans sound amazing.

You talk about driving the HD650s "to the best of their capability" but that is highly subjective, not to mention incredibly expensive. What sounds great to one person, may sound terrible to another person based on their preferences and experience level. For instance, I am not claiming to be a headphones buff - far from it. I bought my HD650s at the start of the year, having not listened extensively to cans for years and years. I was impressed with the HD650s running from the headphone out of my pioneer 5.1 amp. Then I bought a Zero DAC and I was really happy with the improvement in detail and soundstage that offered. Then upgrading to the Compass offered even greater improvements in the same areas. Also the Compass sounds a lot smoother and more musical than the Zero - all in all in my opinion a great purchase, money well spent. To my ears, the Compass sounds really good and at the moment I couldn't ask for anything more considering the money I spent on it. I know that the Compass will not drive the HD650s to the "best of their capability", but I have no inclination, or indeed the means to spend an absurd amount of money on a headphone rig. Some people have spent thousands, if not £10k+ on rigs dedicated to running their headphones such as their HD650s. They are meant to be really scalable headphones - if you spent for example a couple of thousand wisely and you had the ears/experience to hear the differences then no doubt you would get positive results. Can't say that's something I want to do right now.

The Compass has been reviewed by forum members, for example pricklely_peete among others, that have thousands of pounds worth of their own equipment, and have heard countless other high-end gear at meetings, or been sent it for review. No offence, but if someone with that much headphone experience, and several thousand posts on the site tells me that HD650s sound good driven by a Compass (e.g. they are comparing it to their gear which costs a damn lot more than the Compass and saying it gives it a good run for its money) then I am inclined to believe them over, well most other people to be fair!

At the end of the day Drubbing, if you are telling people to stay away from the Compass in order to try and buy something that will drive the HD650s, as you say "to the best of their capabilities" then I think you could be a) costing people one hell of a lot of money because they feel as though they have to spend stupid amounts of money in order to buy something that will do the phones justice, and b) making people miss out on what could well be one of the best value for money units around. Yes its a budget unit, but that is not to say these phones don't sounds really good amped from it. It is my opinion (as an owner of this combo) and many other Compass/HD650 owners that the Compass is a great DAC/Amp for these phones. As I already mentioned in a previous post, at the end of the day the designer used the HD650s among others to develop the unit. It has two gain settings, the higher gain setting having been designed to drive high impedance phones such as these.

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by chum_2000_uk

At the end of the day Drubbing, if you are telling people to stay away from the Compass in order to try and buy something that will drive the HD650s, as you say "to the best of their capabilities" then I think you could be a) costing people one hell of a lot of money because they feel as though they have to spend stupid amounts of money in order to buy something that will do the phones justice, and b) making people miss out on what could well be one of the best value for money units around. Yes its a budget unit, but that is not to say these phones don't sounds really good amped from it. It is my opinion (as an owner of this combo) and many other Compass/HD650 owners that the Compass is a great DAC/Amp for these phones.

I appreciate your comprehensive post, and opinions. But you've got the wrong idea; I'm certainly not trying to 'upsell' anyone towards getting top end everything, to go with 650s.

If anything I'm alerting people to the need for good equipment to go with such phones, and that if they aren't wanting to buy expensive extras, and even the Compass is that to some people - then there are plenty of terrific, top quality phones that don't require amps at all.

There are a lot of people on these forums who don't have that much experience with phones (and that is clear from the questions they ask), and will assume that it's simple; more money = better sound, when everything isn't always plug n play, and the 'best' isn't necessarily what they need or even what they like.

You're happy with the compass. That's great, and it looks a great unit for any quality phone with lower impedance/power needs, such as my DT250 or MS1. If I hadn't gone for the DACmagic, it's something I would have considered. But I still maintain that higher powered amps are what the 650 were actually designed for. By Sennheiser. Regardless of what the amps manufacturers say. And not all of these are that much more than the compass.

And, sorry you can't sway me on head fi. I agree with much of what you said, but the signal/noise ratio is far higher there than any other forum I've frequented, even allowing for its size, and the guys there that know their stuff and are free of BS.

Any place where the MO for reviews, is a mandatory 6-7 paragraphs preamble describing the packing the gear comes in, is obsession turned pathological anoracking. IMHO.

[chum_2000_uk]

So what would you suggest as a minimum to drive HD650s then Drubbing?

[Drubbing]

Minimum? An amp with a DAC like this. Not outside the ballpark of the compass, but principally an amp.

Meier Audio

[chum_2000_uk]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

Minimum? An amp with a DAC like this. Not outside the ballpark of the compass, but principally an amp.

Meier Audio

Not really seeing how that is different from the Compass, as it is a DAC/HP amp too! In fact isn't the Compass assembled with higher quality components!? Dale resistors,custom Nover caps, alps switches and pots etc., 50w custom transformer. Compass also has a discrete HP amp and interchangeable opamps for the DAC/preamp.

On the face of it, on paper you could argue that the Compass has a better specification. Obviously I've not heard or seen any comparisons of the Cantate.2 Vs Compass, but would certainly be interested to know why you think that would power HD650s better than a Compass?

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by chum_2000_uk

Not really seeing how that is different from the Compass, . Obviously I've not heard or seen any comparisons of the Cantate.2 Vs Compass, but would certainly be interested to know why you think that would power HD650s better than a Compass?

You asked for an opinion on a MINIMUM, not ideal. So why surprised that it may look similar on paper to the compass. I can't find any specs on power output for the compass, but the cantate is 13v.

But you're not interested in my opinion; you just want to display your component prowess, and shore up your opinion over mine. Notwithstanding that implementation of components is just as important to performance as their quality.

So if anyone who is still interested in this thread, they might get an idea of the petty wars that start over such headphones, and go and buy something easier to drive instead. Which was my main point.

[chum_2000_uk]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

You asked for an opinion on a MINIMUM, not ideal. So why surprised that it may look similar on paper to the compass. I can't find any specs on power output for the compass, but the cantate is 13v.

But you're not interested in my opinion; you just want to display your component prowess, and shore up your opinion over mine. Notwithstanding that implementation of components is just as important to performance as their quality.

So if anyone who is still interested in this thread, they might get an idea of the petty wars that start over such headphones, and go and buy something easier to drive instead. Which was my main point.

Just because headphones are easier to drive, doesn't necessarily mean they sound better though. Ok maybe if you weren't going to buy an amp at all then fair enough, I'm sure some of these phones would sound better than unamped HD650s. But if the person is prepared to spend a little on an amp like the Compass or indeed the Corda Cantate then I reckon HD650s will sound better than many cheaper, easier to drive headphones such as Alessandro MS1's, Audio Technica AD700's, or Grado SR60/80's or whatever. My girlfriend has a pair of AD700s which are lovely headphones, very detailed and quite easy to drive. I noticed some improvement when using them with the Zero, and even more so with the Compass. But overall, there are things about them I dislike - they can be quite sibilant at times and also bass shy. Changing the opamps within the Compass helps but does not cure this (something you cannot do so easily with the Cantate). In comparison the HD650s are much more balanced, pretty much no detectable sibilance, plenty of bass (but not overpowering, just controlled well) and just a much smoother balanced sound.

I have a feeling that the Compass is likely at least equal to the Cantate (this is based upon what other well regarded owners of the Compass have said regarding equipment a fair bit more expensive than the Compass). So to summarise, I personally can't really see how you can recommend the Cantate as a minimum to drive the HD650s but not the Compass. I'm not sure how you can question Audio GD's ability to implement the high quality components they use. I have yet to see a bad review, or even an average review of the unit. I haven't looked, but it would be interesting to know if the same can be said of the Cantate?

I guess what it basically boils down to, is that I disagree with your statements that the Compass is not an amp people should consider for HD650s. Yes there are better amps - there always are. But at what price? If someone is on a budget, in my opinion there may not be a better alternative. There is also plenty of info over at head-fi backing this up from members with, it seems a damn site more experience than you.

[Drubbing]

Originally Posted by chum_2000_uk

I have a feeling that the Compass is likely at least equal to the Cantate (this is based upon what other well regarded owners of the Compass have said regarding equipment a fair bit more expensive than the Compass). So to summarise, I personally can't really see how you can recommend the Cantate as a minimum to drive the HD650s but not the Compass. I'm not sure how you can question Audio GD's ability to implement the high quality components they use. I have yet to see a bad review, or even an average review of the unit. I haven't looked, but it would be interesting to know if the same can be said of the Cantate?

There is also plenty of info over at head-fi backing this up from members with, it seems a damn site more experience than you.

You appear extremely selective in what you read into my responses; I never said the Cantate was superior to the compass - you asked for a suggestion as a minimum to drive, and I suggested an amp I've had experience with. That you feel it equal to the compass, as I've already said - I'm not surprised, as we're talking about MINIMUM requirements.

And my comment about component implementation was a general one, not aimed at your coveted compass at all.

Finally, I don't give a rats how many years/posts some of the sages on head fi have, many of them are forum-famers, and fruit loops who crow the 'unbelievable SQ benefit' of 500 quid cables and electricity regulators. AS I said signal to noise ratio is huge.

Member here can always go and make their mind pu themselves, and they will from this thread.

[chum_2000_uk]

Originally Posted by Drubbing

You appear extremely selective in what you read into my responses; I never said the Cantate was superior to the compass - you asked for a suggestion as a minimum to drive, and I suggested an amp I've had experience with. That you feel it equal to the compass, as I've already said - I'm not surprised, as we're talking about MINIMUM requirements.

And my comment about component implementation was a general one, not aimed at your coveted compass at all.

Finally, I don't give a rats how many years/posts some of the sages on head fi have, many of them are forum-famers, and fruit loops who crow the 'unbelievable SQ benefit' of 500 quid cables and electricity regulators. AS I said signal to noise ratio is huge.

Member here can always go and make their mind pu themselves, and they will from this thread.

Oh come on, of course you implied that you believe the Cantate is better than the Compass, otherwise you wouldn't have suggested it and said all that nonsense about it being "principally an amp". You told the OP that you wouldn't recommend the Compass for HD650s. Yet when I asked you what you would recommend for them, albeit as a minimum, you said the Cantate. Why would you even mention the Cantate if you didn't think it would give some favourable results!? Its not as if you would spend, what £400 or however much it costs, on an amp that you didn't think would do a decent job - so if you don't think it would then why even recommend it!?

Again, you are really quick to flame head fi members, for no other reason other than the fact that some of them believe that buying better cables and using mains regulators will improve their system. I'm not being funny, there are hundreds of discussions about that on here too. Just like on head fi, some people there believe those things make a difference, others flat out disagree. So tell me, how is head-fi different from any other audio forum, here included?

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sceptical of things like cables and mains regulators too - for my B&W speakers I ended up buying the cheapest cables I could find that were thick (4mm2) off eBay. Cost me about a tenner. Who did I get advice off regarding speaker cable? Have a guess - go on! Yep, a few head fi members. Three different guys, all of which own the Compass (among lots of other gear) incidentally two of which use them in conjunction with HD600/650s. All these guys are members who have a lot of posts there, a fair amount of audio gear and a lot of respect on the forums. So for you to tar everyone there with the same brush is just plain unfair. From what I've seen, there are some very intelligent, cost conscious people there that, like me aren't prepared to just throw money away on things like £500 cables.

You are right, members here can make up their own minds who to believe - people who own the gear, or people who don't

Maybe when Ady gets the Compass he can pass comment here too as to what he thinks about the Senns/Compass combo.