[SportiveUK]

Hi,

Having bought some more kit I need some more HDMI cables. 3m is too long and 1.5m is just too short but these are the lengths that seem to be more commonly available.

I have found some 2m cables here:

Maestro 2m HDMI Lead

I have read all the debates around whether one lead is better than another but I just wondered if anyone had used any of these and if they proved to be ok. If these leads were good sellers I wonder why they are so heavily discounted?

Alternatively I could pop 5 mins down the road to Argos and buy one of these:
Wharfedale 2m HDMI Lead

Any thoughts?

[andy1249]

The Argos one will work as good as any other, I promise you !

[HDMIHead]

Originally Posted by SportiveUK

Hi,

Having bought some more kit I need some more HDMI cables. 3m is too long and 1.5m is just too short but these are the lengths that seem to be more commonly available.

I have found some 2m cables here:

Maestro 2m HDMI Lead

I have read all the debates around whether one lead is better than another but I just wondered if anyone had used any of these and if they proved to be ok. If these leads were good sellers I wonder why they are so heavily discounted?

Alternatively I could pop 5 mins down the road to Argos and buy one of these:
Wharfedale 2m HDMI Lead

Any thoughts?

Maestro uses a higher spec core, and a metal die cast connector.. if youre looking for something economical
visit
http://ukhdmi.com/hdmi-hdmi.php

[nokmond]

Originally Posted by Hdmihead

Maestro uses a higher spec core, and a metal die cast connector.. if youre looking for something economical
visit
http://ukhdmi.com/hdmi-hdmi.php

But they will both do the same job. £3 from ebuyer mate.

[HDMIHead]

Originally Posted by nokmond

But they will both do the same job. £3 from ebuyer mate.

Not true... one does the job better than the other.. will try to get some eye diagrams...

http://www.hdmi.org/installers/eyediagram.aspx

[nokmond]

It looks nothing like that with my eyes. Absolute twaddle! If the picture is perfect then thats all that matters - not how much gold on the ends or how fat the wire is.

[andy1249]

Not true... one does the job better than the other.. will try to get some eye diagrams

Im sorry but thats rubbish!

Cable companys are adept at spinning test results to make the unwary and non technial buyer think they are spending the extra money on something meaningful , Eye diagrams are there to monitor the signal and determine if the signal is clean , however in terms of HDMI all that has to happen is that the levels are distinct , and there is a huge tolerance between working and non working levels. You can pretty much ignore the signal noise as long as the levels are distinct.

The two diagrams shown in the picture show extremes , in reality all cables below 5 meters fall somewhere in between the above two extremes and work perfectly. There are no grades of quality in terms of picture , thats cable sellers BS.

At the lengths talked about here , the only bad thing you are likely to come across is bad soldering or damaged wires , in which case the cable wont work at all.

The upshot is , get the cheapest cable you can , if it works at all , you can be sure that that is as good as it gets.

Maestro uses a higher spec core, and a metal die cast connector..

....and this will make absolutely no difference to the final result , this is a digital signal were talking about here , not analog!

[nokmond]

I don't see how some people are allowed to advertise their business on this site and then try to influence people with twaddle/jargon/rubbish in order to further their own interests. Am i the only one sick of seeing advertisers pushing their own products on here?

[HDMIHead]

The eye diagrams will prove it....we have dicussed this before....

[andy1249]

The eye diagrams will prove it....we have dicussed this before....

Will prove what exactly ?

I ran a test ( I work in interface design ) of over 100 HDMI cables this year , using eye diagrams and logic analysers , to put this issue to the test for a major customer , and the results were conclusive , the only thing an eye diagram will show you is at what point a HDMI cable will fail completely , thats it , what are you implying an eye diagram test will show ?

Incidentally here is some tech info on HDMI testing , eye diagrams explained somewhat on page 11 for anyone thats interested!

http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_N...6W-16884-2.pdf

I don't see how some people are allowed to advertise their business on this site and then try to influence people with twaddle/jargon/rubbish in order to further their own interests.

I 100% agree , I am an Electronics Engineer working in the business and it sickens me to see the borderline fraud that anyone with an interest in selling cables rolls out when it comes to HDMI.

[HDMIHead]

Originally Posted by andy1249

Will prove what exactly ?

I ran a test ( I work in interface design ) of over 100 HDMI cables this year , using eye diagrams and logic analysers , to put this issue to the test for a major customer , and the results were conclusive , the only thing an eye diagram will show you is at what point a HDMI cable will fail completely , thats it , what are you implying an eye diagram test will show ?

Incidentally here is some tech info on HDMI testing , eye diagrams explained somewhat on page 11 for anyone thats interested!

http://www.tek.com/Measurement/App_N...6W-16884-2.pdf

the signal degradation of course. Plus the Maestro is 1.3 cat 2

[HDMIHead]

"Testing HDMI Cables
HDMI cables can be characterized in either or both of
two ways: time-domain reflectometry (TDR) and eye
diagram testing. The TDR technique uses a digital
sampling oscilloscope to measure the impedance
characteristics of a cable with great precision, but
cannot verify waveform quality.
Eye diagram testing involves displaying a waveform
that consists of rising and falling edges superimposed
in such a way that there is an “eye” opening bounded
on all sides by positive-going and negative-going
transitions. Typically there is a region within this
opening that must not be violated by any waveform
data point. To do so would indicate insufficient
signal amplitude, slow rise or fall times, jitter, or a
combination of these aberrations.
The DTG5000 Series can produce standard HDMI
signals for use as test data in eye diagram mask
testing to reveal the true waveform performance of
the cable. First, transmitter performance can be
verified by inserting the test data signals ahead of the
transmitter and performing the eye mask test at the
transmitter output. Once this is confirmed, the test
data signals can be inserted at the beginning of the
cable and eye mask testing performed with the
TDSHT3 package at the end. If jitter violates the
eye mask, the cable has insufficient bandwidth. If
the signals have insufficient level, the cable loss is
too high. Figure 10 is an eye diagram captured by
the TDSHT3 application software package."

cable loss is too high = But again the cable will work some jitters some sparkles but again... if it cheap and works for me who cares right?.. wrong.. its your choice..

[andy1249]

the signal degradation of course. Plus the Maestro is 1.3 cat 2

And what exactly do you mean by that ? The Second part of the post above is a lie , a cable can be category 2 , it cannot be 1.3 , a clear sign that Maestro is not to be trusted.

I see by your sig that you have an interest in selling cables , pretty much making all your comments untrustworthy ! Do you have an interest in selling cables ?
If so properly justify your statements with real tech data and not childish smileys or take your con elsewhere !

Unless the diagram encroaches on the forbidden area there is no change in the final result , and if it does encroach on the forbidden area it doesnt work at all ,

Of all the cables we tested less than 5 meters , not one of them that actually showed an eye diagram was anywhere near the " forbidden area " , the bit error rate was practically zero in all cases and the cables tested ranged from a £2.99 cheap as chips to ridiculously priced so called premium cables priced in the hundreds of pounds range.

The ones that didnt show an eye diagram were actually mechanically faulty , and we had just two of those , one had a cut in the cable , the other had bad solder joints.

[andy1249]

cable loss is too high = But again the cable will work some jitters some sparkles but again... if it cheap and works for me who cares right?.. wrong.. its your choice..

Typical of a seller , take a tech quote and spin it , cable loss is never too high unless were talking really long cables , 10 meters or more , and even then the " it works or it doesnt " rule still very much applies.

[HDMIHead]

The cable has passed the 1.3b Test Specification and is CAT2

"cable loss is never too high unless were talking really long cables , 10 meters or more" Actually data loss / jitters / splarkes does matter to me and to some clients.

[andy1249]

The cable has passed the 1.3b Test Specification and is CAT2

"cable loss is never too high unless were talking really long cables , 10 meters or more" Actually data loss / jitters / splarkes does matter to me and to some clients.

Again more of the spin nonsense , what exactly are you saying here , that all other cables wont pass cat 2 ? Show me one that fails ? Show me one piece of test data that distinguishes your cable from anyone elses ?

[HDMIHead]

HDMI.org have two cable rating cat 1 (standard speed) and cat 2 (high speed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi#HDMI_1.3b

HDMI 1.3 defined two categories of cables: Category 1 certified cables which have been tested at 74.5 Mhz (1080i/720p) and Category 2 certified cables which has been tested at 340 MHz (1600p) to reduce the confusion about which cables support which video formats. A cable of about 5 metres (~16 ft) can be manufactured easily and inexpensively to Category 1 specifications using 28 AWG. Higher-quality construction (24 AWG, tighter construction tolerances, etc.) can reach lengths of 12 to 15 metres (~39 to 49 ft).

[andy1249]

HDMI.org have two cable rating cat 1 (standard speed) and cat 2 (high speed)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi#HDMI_1.3b

HDMI 1.3 defined two categories of cables: Category 1 certified cables which have been tested at 74.5 Mhz (1080i/720p) and Category 2 certified cables which has been tested at 340 MHz (1600p) to reduce the confusion about which cables support which video formats. A cable of about 5 metres (~16 ft) can be manufactured easily and inexpensively to Category 1 specifications using 28 AWG. Higher-quality construction (24 AWG, tighter construction tolerances, etc.) can reach lengths of 12 to 15 metres (~39 to 49 ft).

So What ?
Your still not saying anything here , thats just a cut and paste from HDMI.org , so there are two tests , how does that distinguish your cable from anyone elses .... Pretty much all cables below 5 meters will pass cat 2 , they are identical in that respect , whats special about Maestro ? Are you saying its in an Elite class or something because its passed cat 2 ?

I would also like to point out that cables are sample tested , its highly unlikely that every cable you buy has run through a test , and just because a cable hasnt been tested at a particular category doesnt mean it wont pass , all mechanically sound short cables will pass a category 2 test , Ive seen and done it myself , I have absolutely no doubt about it.

[nokmond]

Back to the OP - http://www.ebuyer.com/product/130508 this will do just fine. Spending anymore will be a complete waste of money no matter what any assured advertiser tells you.

Don't be fooled by the 'over 5m blah blah blah' either. I have several 10m hdmi's (PC , PS3 etc upstairs, tv, monitor downstairs) and i've never seen any sparklies etc at any resolution. I'm sure it does exist, but i've never seen it.
You definately will not have any problems at 2M.

[HDMIHead]

Our Maestro Cables are CAT 2 (High Speed)

"And just because a cable hasnt been tested at a particular category doesnt mean it wont pass" it doesnt mean it will pass the test either. Hence you have a test to prove it

[SportiveUK]

I just wanted to get a feeling for how well different cables had been actually manufactured and whether the more expensive ones would last longer or be more reliable because we can't all have them running in nice straight lines!

I always think back to my old sets of headphones. The cheapy ones used to crackle due to the wires being wound up constantly causing degradation in the core of the wire whereas the more expensive ones tended to not exhibit the same issue because, I assume, that the wires were better constructed.

Simple but that's how my brain sees it

[nokmond]

Originally Posted by SportiveUK

I just wanted to get a feeling for how well different cables had been actually manufactured and whether the more expensive ones would last longer or be more reliable because we can't all have them running in nice straight lines!

I always think back to my old sets of headphones. The cheapy ones used to crackle due to the wires being wound up constantly causing degradation in the core of the wire whereas the more expensive ones tended to not exhibit the same issue because, I assume, that the wires were better constructed.

Simple but that's how my brain sees it

From my experience cheap doesn't allways mean nasty. The cables i use are cheap but are no thinner or thicker than the rip off ones.

[andy1249]

"And just because a cable hasnt been tested at a particular category doesnt mean it wont pass" it doesnt mean it will pass the test either. Hence you have a test to prove it

Again more nonsense spin ,

Tested or no it wont affect the performance of any actual cable , you make it sound like it will , and remember ...It is highly unlikely that any cable that anyone buys has been actually tested.

An engineering sample will have been tested , thats all.The rest will just have been made to the same spec ,they will never have been tested to category 2 !

I take it as given at this point that you have no Data that makes sense to show that maestro have anything to distinguish their HDMI over any other , thats as expected , because the truth is there is no difference in results for any HDMI cable at the length the OP specified , and thats all there is too it.

That is a verifiable and undeniable fact.

[nokmond]

Originally Posted by andy1249

Again more nonsense spin ,

Tested or no it wont affect the performance of any actual cable , you make it sound like it will , and remember ...It is highly unlikely that any cable that anyone buys has been actually tested.

An engineering sample will have been tested , thats all.The rest will just have been made to the same spec ,they will never have been tested to category 2 !

I take it as given at this point that you have no Data that makes sense to show that maestro have anything to distinguish their HDMI over any other , thats as expected , because the truth is there is no difference in results for any HDMI cable at the length the OP specified , and thats all there is too it.

That is a verifiable and undeniable fact.

Well said. There must be rules on this forum against misleading people to further your own interests surely?

About 99% of people on this forum have accepted that under at least 5M all HDMI cables will perform identically so to try and get people to spend 5 times the needed amount of money is not on.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello SportiveUK

HDMI signals tend to prefer to travel in a straight line - the designers never envisaged folk would be using long cable runs between HDMI equipped Devices!!!

The heavier the gauge of cable the less likely you are to have a problem on a long run - unfortunately that also tends to mean the long cables are the least flexible.

The long cables that work in all setups tend to include a degree of over engineering and ensure the individual signal lines are well screened and stay put when a cable does have to negotiate a bend.

The engineers who put together the HDMI Spec advise that its often best to put a 'Loop' into your cable run rather than try and 'turn' a cable through a 90' bend.

I've seen more than a few installed HDMI cables being 'tugged' when folk forget to disconnect a bit of kit during a system hardware swap out - some cables will survive; others will leave you with a cable in one hand and a ripped off connector in another!!!

Some cable manufacturers will ensure that long cables comply with one or other Smoke/Fire regulations that apply to cables that are to be concealed into wall or ceiling cavities and some cables will have an outer jacket that will survive better when being pulled through conduit and timber.

Joe

[andy1249]

HDMI signals tend to prefer to travel in a straight line

Joe , the rest of the post about mechanical strength and fire regulations , absolutely fine , but as an Electronics engineer I have to say that the above statement is just ..... what can I say ! Im dumbfounded , it has no merit .... there Ive been nice once today at least !

Avoiding 90 degree bends in cable is common sense , but for mechanical reasons due to stress on the cable only , the electrical signal couldn't care less ! It doesnt carry enough current to be of any electrical significance.

[Joe Fernand]

Hello andy1249

The problem for a lot of wall mounted Displays and folk running cables around a room perimeter is that many folk do have to go through a tight Radius as they enter/exit the Display or hit a corner and as you say this can cause physical disconnects and other mechanical problems.

When folk associated with the design of the HDMI Standard also talk about data problems due to tight bends (even where there is no physical problem) I'll listen to their advice on how best to install cables - 'If the display or
the source has limited room behind for the connector to form a decent radius, a cable will have a very
hard time staying connected. Conversely, you don’t want to have tight 90º kinks in the cable, otherwise
you may start to degrade data from the severity of the bend'.
(Jeff Boccaccio writing for CEPro).

Joe

[SportiveUK]

Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

The long cables that work in all setups tend to include a degree of over engineering and ensure the individual signal lines are well screened and stay put when a cable does have to negotiate a bend.

Thanks... this is exactly what I was getting at although I can see that perhaps my original post was not clear in this respect, hence the additional (interesting) debate! I don't actually have a very long cable run (2m) but it will have a tight bend in one spot, which is what I need the cable to physically cope with.

[-Ad-]

HDMI.org have two cable rating cat 1 (standard speed) and cat 2 (high speed)

So that means I'm watching everything in slow motion as my cable is worth a few quid







I'm with the engineers on this one, we always know our subject back to front, and don't believe pap typed and quoted off the internet super-holy-grail-highway.

[andy1249]

If the display or
the source has limited room behind for the connector to form a decent radius, a cable will have a very
hard time staying connected. Conversely, you don’t want to have tight 90º kinks in the cable, otherwise
you may start to degrade data from the severity of the bend'

It would be very easy to just ridicule the part in bold , I wont though , and try to get you to just think about it for a moment ,

The data travels through more than just a cable , it has to come through the device port on the source and into the device port on the sink , correct ?

All mounted to the boards with at least a 90 degree connection , the circuit board itself is probably multilayered with at least some connections between layers doing a 180 degree twist. Ask yourself how the Data copes with that ?

Really , Data having trouble navigating bends is ludicrous, and you have to seriously question the credibility of anyone who comes out with stuff like that !

By the way , Ive read a lot of his posts on Cebit pro , most skewed towards cable sellers , and as someone who has no interest in selling cables , I can tell you that most of his posts concerning HDMI cables are wildly inaccurate at best !