[1LeeDenton]

My recent break from all things Halo had me wondering what changes Bungie could make that could potentially make things a bit better, and one idea I came up with was doing away with the Trueskill system, that is clearly just fundamentally br0ken, and implement a system based solely on EXP, in a similar fashion to the Call of Duty series.

Now, before you all start jumping up and down and shouting at me (*cough* EEC *cough*), you have to consider that as things stand, thanks to all the 2nd account/boosters that now infest every playlist, the wonderfully crafted and implemented Trueskill system is dead, defunct, br0ken, whatever you want to call it. Yes, the system does allow me to be matched with people who are deemed as being rank 36 in Slayer, but upon closer inspection these people are actually Generals on other accounts. Therefore, I'm not being matched with people of a similar ability level, therefore the matchmaking system is worth nothing.

Now of course, there is very little that Bungie can actually do about this, as anyone can start a new account if they're prepared to spend money on them. One solution however would be to wipe the slate clean when ODST is released, and change the Ranking system to one that is based on EXP, rather than win 10 to rank once, lose one to go back down again.

Saying this though, it doesn't mean I want Bungie to be giving away the higher ranks. I think setting a figure of something like 5,000 EXP to get to General is a sufficiently challenging target, yet still seems vaguely achievable. You've still got to win an awful lot of matches in a Ranked playlist......it would also make the Double EXP Weekends a bit more enticing, whereas at the moment I'm avoiding them like the plague as I don't really want anymore EXP on my account which will ultimately DECREASE my chances of improving my highest skill

Take my current situation as an example; I'm currently a highest skill 46, which I don't think I'm ever going to improve upon a) because its in SWAT, which I don't play anymore, and b) because the Trueskill system will not allow me to get even near 40 in other playlists, never mind 50. This has lead to me feeling like there's actually very little point in playing Halo 3 multiplayer, as essentially I have nothing to aim for. And yes, whilst the CoD system is far more 'primitive', at least when I'm playing the game I can be aiming to get to Prestige 10 (which is going to take ages coincidentally).

I think Bungie should be praised for coming up with a ranking system that on paper, and before it got abused, was fantastic, and certainly no other game could match it. However, I just wonder whether the time has come for Bungie to modify its system to match the players that are playing it?

[Billy Goodgun]

It's a difficult one. I, for one, do not want to see an exp-based rank. Highest skill in Halo still serves as a much better guide as to how good players are going to be when I get matched against them than any exp-only ranking system employed by CoD and other games. Okay, so it's not perfect, and even legitimate accounts can choose not to rank up and therefore potentially mislead opponents - but it remains a good rule of thumb, a "there or thereabouts" yardstick.

Boosting takes place in just about any online game - the one common factor in all these things, though, is that people will be matched above their actual skill base, and suffer for it in the long run.

Skill in Halo is exactly that - whereas CoD favours those who simply put hours and hours into the game, even they're rubbish. Obviously, the more time you put in, the better you're going to get, but you get the point.

The Halo ranking system isn't quite broken IMO, but the endless boosters make it a lot harder to rank legitimately. The only thing is, though, that once you start getting into the 40s, you're either that skill or you're not - boosting has less of an impact as you go higher. Obviously, it's still annoying to be matched against against a team of 50s playing on second accounts at level 42, as you'll still lose, but the difference in skill is marginalised as you progress.

I honestly don't think I play at a 50 in Halo, and therefore don't deserve to be a general. Could I get there? Possibly, yes, or at least damn close, but I am not too fussed. I'd love to get to brig, as that's about the level I play at on a good day, but I'm honest about my abilities. I'm good, but not amazing. I've played generals and beaten them easily, and I've played brigs and lost horribly.

But I know roughly where I sit on the ladder of Halo skill, so it doesn't bother me that I'm not a general. Even if my rank never progresses from colonel, I'm okay with that. I'm fine with being underestimated and then winning anyway!

Switching to an exp-based system would fundamentally change the essence of Halo MP for me, so I don't want it. I do want a fairer system for ranking, though, but I don't know what Bungie can do to improve it and eliminate second accounts - perhaps ban them from ranked matches but not social ones or something. It's difficult, though, because some people do actually pay to have a second account!

[1LeeDenton]

Originally Posted by Billy Goodgun

It's difficult, though, because some people do actually pay to have a second account!

It is difficult, because if I choose to pay ~£25 for a brand new Gold Account, then what can Bungie do to prevent that? They can't. So I get my brand new account to 50, at the detriment of everyone else who has like 2k+ EXP, but just because I'm viewed as a n00b by the Trueskill system I fly up the ranks.

I just feel it would be a nice slap in the face to all the idiots who have (for me) ruined what is a genius game. It would be like Bungie saying "right you guys, you've broken/cheated our system, so now you can have that crappy one that they use in Call of Duty. 50's all round to them that play the game long enough"

I suppose ultimately I feel sad that 'The Game of the Gods' has been ruined by what I suppose is a minority of people.

[The Bass]

I've always thought that having individual skills is a ridiculous idea. If you are a general in Team Slayer why would you need to start at 0 in every other playlist? They're obviously going to skill up faster in those playlists but in the mean time everyone has to play against them. It's the exact same thing as a second account but in a different playlist and it was designed by Bungie .

I would much prefer them to make a skill system that was clearly explained and worked, a system that would allow you to know if you were going to skill up if you win the next game. An xp only ranking only shows how much you've played and double xp ruins any meaningful win/lose ratio available on the service record. Also play Team Slayer at ~35 and you'll find there are hundreds of people who are Grade 3/4 Generals of xp in a playlist but with a 32 skill. Surely being a General would mean nothing if they were able to get it just from playing more than you?

[Billy Goodgun]

Originally Posted by The Bass

I've always thought that having individual skills is a ridiculous idea. If you are a general in Team Slayer why would you need to start at 0 in every other playlist? They're obviously going to skill up faster in those playlists but in the mean time everyone has to play against them. It's the exact same thing as a second account but in a different playlist and it was designed by Bungie .

Hmm. I have a lot of sympathy with this view, and I largely agree with it, except that it's fair to say some people are better at certain gametypes than others. For example, Lee is clearly great at SWAT I have a mate who is excellent at Objective - he just times everything to perfection, he knows exactly when to nab the flag or arm the bomb. He wins so many of my Objective games for me. He's a good player anyway, but he really shines at Objective. And on a similar note, I am rubbish at Lone Wolves.

So to me, it makes sense that there are different ranks for different playlists.

But despite what I have just written - some people are good at particular playlists - you could in theory still have one universal rank. You could simply stick to your best gametypes to rank up more.

Originally Posted by The Bass

I would much prefer them to make a skill system that was clearly explained and worked, a system that would allow you to know if you were going to skill up if you win the next game.

That is a fantastic idea! I want it in Reach

At the end of every game: "Billy - you need x wins to rank up". Clear, simple, helpful.

[Billy Goodgun]

Originally Posted by TG V1P3R

It is difficult, because if I choose to pay ~£25 for a brand new Gold Account, then what can Bungie do to prevent that? They can't. So I get my brand new account to 50, at the detriment of everyone else who has like 2k+ EXP, but just because I'm viewed as a n00b by the Trueskill system I fly up the ranks.

Exactly. What can they do? I still think my idea of banning second accounts from ranked is a good one, but how could they legitimately detect who has a second account and who is just new and/or good? They couldn't - it's not practical.

Perhaps other measures could be taken. Things I'd like to see:

1. People who constantly quit in order to lose exp so they can rank quicker should be more effectively detected and banned. Or they should recieve an automatic hold on ranking in a particular playlist after quitting, say, two or three games in a single day on that gametype.

2. Ranking shouldn't be tied in to experience. Unfortunately, because of how TrueSkill works, it has to be. Another system could be devised...?

3. Maybe limits should be imposed: you can't play more ranked games than social games, for example. Would deter boosters, as they would have to play double the amount of games to get anywhere. Could also annoy "legit" players, though.

[MJC]

You could argue that Bungie have already introduced a COD style system by adding the playlist ranks. These are entirely based on the EXP you earn. If you want to go for skill rating you can but if not you can just concentrate on playlist ranks. It's kind of like having both systems in one game.

[The Bass]

Originally Posted by Billy Goodgun

Hmm. I have a lot of sympathy with this view, and I largely agree with it, except that it's fair to say some people are better at certain gametypes than others. For example, Lee is clearly great at SWAT I have a mate who is excellent at Objective - he just times everything to perfection, he knows exactly when to nab the flag or arm the bomb. He wins so many of my Objective games for me. He's a good player anyway, but he really shines at Objective. And on a similar note, I am rubbish at Lone Wolves.

I suppose you are right . You could, however, combine both ideas by having a highest skill and a minimum skill. Getting to a 50 in a playlist could then automatically make you a 40 in every other playlist. After that if you weren't as good at another playlist you would go down to the 30's but those that are good could get to 50's in that playlist without facing all of the lower skills. It would stop those who are good at every playlist from starting at 0 and the 50's who arent as good at something such as objective would go down but wouldn't be able to dominate.

Also I can't believe they allow any accounts to have -xp. It must be so easy for them to just filter all the accounts with -xp and ban them but they choose not to.

Finally, regarding talented players, I know a guy who made a second account and got 50's in 4 different playlists in <250 games, including MLG . I can't imagine how good some people are.

[1LeeDenton]

Originally Posted by MJC

You could argue that Bungie have already introduced a COD style system by adding the playlist ranks. These are entirely based on the EXP you earn. If you want to go for skill rating you can but if not you can just concentrate on playlist ranks. It's kind of like having both systems in one game.

Excellent point Matt - I always kind of wondered why they bothered with what (to me) is a pretty pointless exercise in having a playlist rank based on EXP. The amount of times I've seen a Slayer General who's global skill is <35

[sordid_sentinel]

A CoD style system wouldn't automatically fix the problems, you'd still end up playing awesome people if they had a low amount of experience (and crap people would eventually reach the highest rank and would render the system obselete anyway imo).

You say there's little point in playing Halo now, just play for fun dude I hardly ever hop into ranked now, I just play for the lulz.

Who knows, maybe Bungie have something new planned for Reach. A agree that achange is definitely needed but I'm not sure if CoD's style is the answer.

They could review your performance in certain playlists. Say, after every 10 games it checks your win % and if it's 50% you stay where you are, <50% you rank down (and rank down more the lower it is) and >50% you rank up (and you rank up more the higher it is). If experience was disregarded it would mean your rank constantly changed based on your current form and everyone should (in theory) play people whos form and skill is similar to their own.

That's probably an awful idea though what does everyone else think?

[Billy Goodgun]

I might write a letter to Bungie. I'm typing one now. I will post it here for comments before I send it. I don't want to offend them.

[The Bass]

Originally Posted by sordid_sentinel

You say there's little point in playing Halo now, just play for fun dude I hardly ever hop into ranked now, I just play for the lulz.

Just don't do HLG, I was doing it yesterday with some friends and 2 guests in Social Slayer and apparently we've been xp banned . It's a good thing Bungie are on the lookout for the real criminals in Halo, not the boosters/second accounts that have negated their ranking.

Originally Posted by sordid_sentinel

They could review your performance in certain playlists. Say, after every 10 games it checks your win % and if it's 50% you stay where you are, <50% you rank down (and rank down more the lower it is) and >50% you rank up (and you rank up more the higher it is). If experience was disregarded it would mean your rank constantly changed based on your current form and everyone should (in theory) play people whos form and skill is similar to their own.

That's probably an awful idea though what does everyone else think?

Sounds like a good idea to me . If you are winning more games than you are losing then you are playing people worse than you and should go up. You should add it as a suggestion on Billy's letter.

[Billy Goodgun]

AN OPEN LETTER TO BUNGIE

Dear Bungie

First of all, let me just get the lip service out of the way: I love Halo 3 (I would probably have loved Halo: CE and Halo 2, as well, but I didn’t own the original Xbox). I have preordered ODST, and I am extremely excited about a new campaign, new Mythic Maps, and Firefight. I also love you guys. Not in any kind of “reach for the restraining order” way, nor in any sort of obsequious fanboy sort of way, but because you made a damn-near-perfect game and are still trying to improve it two years later. I think you show your fans the loyalty and respect they deserve, and that your dedicated and vociferous community says much about the esteem in which you are held by those worshipping in the Church of Halo.

Now let me cut to the chase: the Halo 3 multiplayer has become – for me – the best but also the most frustrating experience online. I love the mix of gametypes, all the way from the twitch skills of SWAT through to the epic carnage of big team. I love the crazy and surprising physics. And I really love the medals, which point out every cool thing that I do (in-game, anyway). However, I am rather tired of being beaten by Joe 50 and his similarly-ranked friends on second accounts whenever I start reaching for the stars once more, and striving for the upper echelons of ranked matchmaking. I know this problem stems from beyond the confines of the Bungie offices, and is not something you could ever hope to eradicate completely, even with the help of John-117*. However, I would like to suggest where some improvements might be made, in my opinion at least.

This may seem rather presumptuous given that you – and not me – are the experienced game developers. It is. But nevertheless, perhaps some of this will provide food for thought, or at the very least, an amusing target for ridicule in Bungie HQ.

I know that players who regularly quit games to drive down exp and thus rank quicker are detected and banned, but I still seem to play against a number of these nefarious wrongdoers. Might it be possible to impose an automatic, temporary and universal ban on anyone quitting, say, more than 3 times from a single playlist in a 24-hour period? That might help flummox the bad apples.

Another suggestion designed to weed out boosters and those who play LW or TD simply to sell on a “one-month” might be to link ranked games to social. While this has the potential to annoy legitimate players as much as it does the illegitimate children of Beelzebub, if players were unable to play more ranked games than social, boosters would certainly be deterred, as double the amount of legwork would be required.

Why does TrueSkill have to be the go-to ranking system? I appreciate that – due to the fibre of its fabric – rank is inextricably tied to experience, but this helps boosters and second accounts even more than the loyal die-hards still playing on their main accounts. Would it be possible to devise and use a different system?

Or how about clarifying ranking – maybe I could be forewarned about how many games I need to level up/down? Perhaps there could be one universal rank, or at least a minimum rank. I appreciate that different players excel at different gametypes, but maybe a “minimum rank” differential of -10 could be applied to every other playlist? So, for example, if I was a 50 in Team Slayer, I would be a 40 in everything else. I could then rank down or up accordingly.

In any event, my ramblings are over for now, so you may all heave a collective sigh of relief, if indeed you’re even still reading this.

Keep up the good work. Recon or not, I’ll hope to see you guys in the field for Bungie versus the World 2.

Keep it clean.

Warmest regards,


(name witheld)
AKA Billy Goodgun

* I am aware John-117 is a fictional character

[1LeeDenton]

Great letter Billy - I'm sure that'll get some read time at Bungie HQ

Turned out to be an interesting little thread this one...

[The Bass]

Agreed, that's pretty much perfect Billy and says everything that needed to be said . Keep us posted on the response.

[Billy Goodgun]

Will do!

[sordid_sentinel]

Nicely done mate, I hope they give it a proper read

[Democritus Mav]

There is nothing wrong (imo) in using a CoD style ranking system. The EXP element of it works well. You’re rewarded for flag caps, team victory, individual performance etc with EXP boosts that improve your online rank. Also they don’t have be limited to gametype or straight up kills, the challenges section (in CoD4) shows a particularly good way in which a player can still be rewarded without necessarily having to kill everything that moves. Rewarding EXP in this way also encourages Teamwork when playing with randoms which can only be a good thing. I mean 1 EXP in H3 doesn’t stop you doouch team mate betraying you for the sniper rifle. All in all I think that this element of the XP system in CoD is better than Halo.

Where I think its goes wrong with CoD is when you get rewarded with game bonuses (not just EXP) the longer you play. The more you play the better the weapons you unlock in CoD. Sounds great in principle but in effect all you’re doing is creating inequalities between the players. In twitch based FPS where any advantage at all can be the difference between life and death (here I’m thinking skill, connection speed, teamplay and importantly weapons) then instantly creating inequalities and favouring some players over others simply because they have played longer doesn’t sit right with me.

Unfortunately this kind of progression is so intrinsically linked into the ranking/skill system of Cod if you removed it, it wouldn’t feel the same at all.

p.s. Good letter Billy.

[EEC3]

18 long posts I can't be bothered to read but I'm sure you all made good points.

V1P3R - play Social. Job sorted

Ranked is a man's game and there is no place for steers and queers. Which one are you? because you sure don't look like a steer!

[Hillskill]

Really interesting thread. Obviously I'm not as well versed in all things Bungie as you guys but on the face of it, somewhere between the two systems would be ideal.
The XP system of COD is massively weighted in the favour of the already higher ranks. Thats why so many people play it for a bit and then throw it down in frustration, spawn die spawn die etc. You could argue however that once players start prestiging and resetting their stats it does balance things a little better. If they keep the same system in place for MW2 (which certainly looks that way) this will be even worse as all the amazing players from COD4 will take to it like a duck to water. Once everyone learns the maps they will be in their element.

[1LeeDenton]

Originally Posted by EEC3

V1P3R - play Social. Job sorted

I've told you before, I have a custom made Halo 3 disc that Bungie sent to me whereby the Social playlists are not an option to me when I load the game

[Billy Goodgun]

Actually, it's funny you mention the minimum entry standard for CoD, and why it's frustrating for new or inexperienced players. I think that there is a similar bar for entry on Halo now, albeit for very different reasons.

Now, many players have low-level second/boost accounts. Genuinely new players jump on to Halo, get absolutely owned by level 50 players using a second account, and so the newbie assumes they're rubbish. In fact, they're often playing much better players who have put days and days into the game!

Two totally different systems to mark online skill and progress. Same outcome.

[1LeeDenton]

As Hillskill says, I think finding a balance between the COD and Halo ranking system would just about be perfect. As others has stated, it can be a bit frustrating running around as a low rank in COD when all the good players have all the best weapons unlocked. Likewise, Halo can be VERY frustrating when you are paired (often in consecutive games) with a team of boosters playing on 2nd accounts. That just quite simply is not fun, whether I'm playing Ranked or Social, as I'm sure nobody likes getting their asses handed to them.

At least using the COD system, if I enter a lobby and the other team are all Level 10 Prestige, then that gives me a pretty good indicator that they are going to be good players. I also don't buy into this whole "doesn't indicate they're good, it just shows they've got a lot of time on their hands" thing either, as no seriously bad player is going to play the game long enough to get to Prestige 10, and STILL be a bad player. To get to that level you've got to dedicate hours and hours and hours of play, all of which will make you a good player.

[Billy Goodgun]

Originally Posted by TG V1P3R

At least using the COD system, if I enter a lobby and the other team are all Level 10 Prestige, then that gives me a pretty good indicator that they are going to be good players. I also don't buy into this whole "doesn't indicate they're good, it just shows they've got a lot of time on their hands" thing either, as no seriously bad player is going to play the game long enough to get to Prestige 10, and STILL be a bad player. To get to that level you've got to dedicate hours and hours and hours of play, all of which will make you a good player.

I said as much earlier on, but I'm a bit "yes" and "no" on this one.

Gold Cross prestige players, simply because of the amount of time involved in getting there, will almost undoubtedly be better than me, although perhaps that's down to practice more than skill these days. However, although it's been several months since I played CoD now, I was regularly beating prestige players with ease, even though they were often ranked 65 or more levels higher than me. In Halo, however, I come across very few levels 45-50s I can beat with ease. Yes, I can win, but it's not like Usain Bolt winning - I don't jog the last few metres with my shoelaces untied.

[Hillskill]

Originally Posted by TG V1P3R

I also don't buy into this whole "doesn't indicate they're good, it just shows they've got a lot of time on their hands" thing either, as no seriously bad player is going to play the game long enough to get to Prestige 10, and STILL be a bad player. To get to that level you've got to dedicate hours and hours and hours of play, all of which will make you a good player.

Exactly GC Lvl 55 takes around 100,000 kills. You will have learnt a thing or two by then.

When I have played Halo 3 I have been systematically whooped and at the time my rationale was "why get owned here when I can get half owned on COD4". At the time I didn't realise it but perhaps I was playing far more experienced players then I first thought. I supposed to be in the Halo 3 equivilent Boot Camp you get in COD5 but everyone seemed to be miles better.....no suprises there tho

I am really excited about Reach though. It will come at a time that MW2 will be old news and plenty of players will be bored of it. I know alot of Players feel they "missed the boat" with Halo 3 so Reach represents a really nice chance to get onto the Halo rollercoaster. The rumoured squad based gameplay offers something very different to the "run and gunner" type player. I'm not sure how well the Trueskill system would translate to squad based gameplay though.

[shuzzbutt]

I find that the flaw with the ranking system stems from the 'one ring' type power of halo 3

Normally in 'RL', I'm a placid chilled out cool-as ice mofo, but put me in front of a 360 with Halo 3 & I become some ranked playlist whoring junkie, playing that one more game to find that extra rank

By nature, its the most competative game I've ever played, even if youre rubbish (like me), you really end up caring too much about a stupid rank number sitting by youre equally stupid gamertag

In that sense, the cod system wouldnt be too bad as it really doesnt matter how good you are or even in team deathmatch how you play as a team as you gain xp regardless

[The Bass]

Originally Posted by shuzzbutt

I find that the flaw with the ranking system stems from the 'one ring' type power of halo 3

Normally in 'RL', I'm a placid chilled out cool-as ice mofo, but put me in front of a 360 with Halo 3 & I become some ranked playlist whoring junkie, playing that one more game to find that extra rank

By nature, its the most competative game I've ever played, even if youre rubbish (like me), you really end up caring too much about a stupid rank number sitting by youre equally stupid gamertag

In that sense, the cod system wouldnt be too bad as it really doesnt matter how good you are or even in team deathmatch how you play as a team as you gain xp regardless

That's true, the only thing you get from winning in CoD is a small xp boost whereas in Halo your skill and xp both hang on the outcome of the match. I never used to care if I lost on CoD (except maybe HQ because you got lots of xp just for being on the highest scoring side) but on Halo that is all I care about (not getting most kills etc.) as that is all that affects my rank.

On a side note I've found out on my Bungie.net stats that I quit out of 6 games in a row without even being there and taking my party with me which is almost definitely why I'm xp banned . Oh well, no xp is a bonus, it will help me rank up quicker .

[YOUWIN]

I'm a lonley miserable geet, and therefore i only play LW, with no mic and make sure everyone else is muted
At one point (maybe 15 - 18 months ago) i was at level 40 in LW, then i had some major connection problems, without realising it i was screwing my chances of getting to 45 and that brig badge, conection problems sorted after a couple of months, but the dmage was done.
Am now playing at around 33-35, and probably never get back up to 40, especially as i always quit KOTH games and ODDBALL games (why TF are they in LW )

I see plenty of second accounts in LW, but they soon pass by, i don't really give a toss, just play the players as they are, sometimes it gets handed to you, and then sometimes it all goes VERY WELL

in short i dont care what they do, ranking wise, i just like playing and am past the whole "got to rank up stage"

[xMK9x]

Lol @ second account n00bs

[The Bass]

A guy on my team in social slayer was a 50 but he was terrible so I knew he had bought it. I wanted to check his record to see how fast the guy who sold him the account managed to get the 50, turns out it was 19 straight wins in Team Doubles . At the start of the 19th game he was a 47 and winning that took him up 3 skills. It's insane how easy it is for good players to boost fresh accounts.