Track editor confirmed?

jonneymendoza · 01-11-2009, 6:58 PM

NeoGAF - View Single Post - Gran Turismo 5 announced...March 2010 in Japan. (ignore the OP at your peril)

Norlo · 03-11-2009, 1:50 PM

Yeah saw this too JM. Although not from the source you quote.

Not confirmed by PD or Sony as yet, but i have all available limbs crossed that this turns out to be true.

Imagine being able to create your own track and share with the GT5 community, a la LBP. That would be an amazing feature. With some of the talented and committed racing fans out there, it would not be long before all the best real world track had been recreated, although saying that, i guess real world tracks would get banned due to copyright?

Still, very nice feature if it a) proves to be true, and b) it is implemented well.

Paul_T · 03-11-2009, 1:57 PM

Combine this feature with a Forza 3 style storefront and the possibilities are mind boggling - although how PD will be able to sell DLC track packs after this is questionable - any "wishlist" tracks that don't come as part of the full game will be available from the community within weeks.

Add the race editor (still unconfirmed too) and there's won't be a full race series on the planet that can't be built in game - only exception might be some WRC stages.

Maybe thats the reason the games gonna be on 3 discs - one disc is just chock a block with all the textures etc from the main game.

oh look at me - getting ahead of myself again!

jonneymendoza · 03-11-2009, 2:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul_T

Combine this feature with a Forza 3 style storefront and the possibilities are mind boggling - although how PD will be able to sell DLC track packs after this is questionable - any "wishlist" tracks that don't come as part of the full game will be available from the community within weeks.

Add the race editor (still unconfirmed too) and there's won't be a full race series on the planet that can't be built in game - only exception might be some WRC stages.

Maybe thats the reason the games gonna be on 3 discs - one disc is just chock a block with all the textures etc from the main game.

oh look at me - getting ahead of myself again!

Its on one disks not 3

Confirmed as well mate.

Norlo · 03-11-2009, 2:06 PM

It certainly does sound good. But you are right, lets not get ahead of ourselves on this one. That route always ends in disappointment until PD or Sony 100% confirm.

As you said Paul, in theory, with a track Ed any real world track could be created, but as i said before, i just don't think that can happen due to licensing issues. Seems very feasible that a track Ed will make it into GT5, but it could just be loads of user fantasy tracks, which would still be good for variation, but if you can't create a release to the community real world track recreations, the feature does loss much of what, in my head, would make it great.

I am sure we'll hear more as we get closer to the alleged Q1 2010 release date

jonneymendoza · 03-11-2009, 2:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norlo

It certainly does sound good. But you are right, lets not get ahead of ourselves on this one. That route always ends in disappointment until PD or Sony 100% confirm.

As you said Paul, in theory, with a track Ed any real world track could be created, but as i said before, i just don't think that can happen due to licensing issues. Seems very feasible that a track Ed will make it into GT5, but it could just be loads of user fantasy tracks, which would still be good for variation, but if you can't create a release to the community real world track recreations, the feature does loss much of what, in my head, would make it great.

I am sure we'll hear more as we get closer to the alleged Q1 2010 release date

doubt their will be any licencing issues. why? because so long as you dont sell the track as your own, your not breaching anything.

Look at pro evo, you can create say for example, the arsenal kit yet it doesnt breach any licencing issues so to speak.

Another example is Rfactor. lots of new cars and tracks perfectly down legaly.

For me, making this game more mod/customize friendly is the way to go.

Paul_T · 03-11-2009, 2:17 PM

Another example is Forza's car editor, you can probably find any livery you want on the store or auction house.

Norlo · 03-11-2009, 4:53 PM

Well, figures crossed you guys are right and there are no license issues.

All i can say is, if i owned the license etc to, say, Silverstone racing track, the course likeness, the track layout, i would not want some user creating the track and giving it away free. As that license holder, I would prefer the alternate where by I sell the license to use the track to PD/Sony. That means A) i get cash and b) i can approve the track. License holders like that kinda thing.

Good point about the livery ed in F3 tho. That does indeed have lots of copyright work recreated. And that sees fine. Pro evo not such a good example as the patches for that game do not come through official channels and are in no way approved or endorsed by Konami. I would guess it's the same with PC games like Rfactor, do those come from the publisher or are they just files the user downloads from peers?

Anyway, don't get me wrong, i am all for customization in games, and that is one area were PS3 really does excel. Sony seem to have been able to make it work in terms of user content, so i really hope it works out. Because as Paul said, within a month or so of release, we'd have access to every real life track out there, which would pretty much put every other racing game out of business

jonneymendoza · 03-11-2009, 5:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norlo

Well, figures crossed you guys are right and there are no license issues.

All i can say is, if i owned the license etc to, say, Silverstone racing track, the course likeness, the track layout, i would not want some user creating the track and giving it away free. As that license holder, I would prefer the alternate where by I sell the license to use the track to PD/Sony. That means A) i get cash and b) i can approve the track. License holders like that kinda thing.

Good point about the livery ed in F3 tho. That does indeed have lots of copyright work recreated. And that sees fine. Pro evo not such a good example as the patches for that game do not come through official channels and are in no way approved or endorsed by Konami. I would guess it's the same with PC games like Rfactor, do those come from the publisher or are they just files the user downloads from peers?

Anyway, don't get me wrong, i am all for customization in games, and that is one area were PS3 really does excel. Sony seem to have been able to make it work in terms of user content, so i really hope it works out. Because as Paul said, within a month or so of release, we'd have access to every real life track out there, which would pretty much put every other racing game out of business

it doesnt matter if its from the publisher or not. the publisher is not the one making the content its the users that are. As long as you dont make money off it its fine mate. Pro evo's editing feature has become soo complex that you can pull off making the arsenal kit properly without any third party mods.

Why do you think the ps3 version of pro evo is soo popular? because you can download game files for it easily.

whether its a mod or done using the games creative tools it is still done by the user.

If their ever was a title that can put ps3 leaps and bounds ahead of its rivals, this is it. Just ask many racing fans from its rival consoles and the majority will be happy to buy a ps3 just for this game.

Norlo · 03-11-2009, 5:35 PM

The license holder could demand that the publisher of the game take down the user created content which is provided through the the publishers game on the grounds of copyright, and PD/Sony would have to do that.

Pro Evo is a little different and by using that example you highlight that you are missing the point. It is the delivery method of user created content which is key.

With Pro Evo, you edit your kits on PS3, make you own. That is fine. You are using an option in the game to create kits. As you say, the editor in PES is v good now. However, the issue comes when an edited option file is distributed to other users. Konami cannot stop users trading modified option files, it is out of their hands. But crucially, Konami offer no facility in the game to download modded option files. In fact using a third parties modded option file is against the T&Cs of the game. If Konami did put in the option to download edited option files from other users, knowing full well they would feature kits for which PES does not have a licenses for, they would get in trouble.

Why go to the trouble of licensing kits and league and the cash that involves, when you could just provide a good editor and the ability for users to share those edited files from within the game - that would give the same result?

The reason is, the license holders would quickly be telling Konami to take down that content. The way it works with Pro Evo is that it's all done on a user level. User makes kits, user distributes option file, other people use it. The game (and therefore it's publisher) are not involved in the distribution aspect of what is effective copyright infringing content. And thus, the publisher can and would win with the acertion that they cannot do anything about what users do. However, if the option was actually in the game, then the publisher would have recoure to stop the copyright infrining files, and that is what they would have to do.

Take LBP for example, user content is moderated by MM to ensure if a license holder sees a user level which they believe is infringing on their copyright, MM will be asked to remove it. And they will.

I think you need to understand the difference between user created content which is provided through 'the game' and as such, is moderated and controlled by the publisher/dev, and content which can be spread between users, without consent or intent of publisher.

But hey, this post is beginning to sound like something i would write at work, and i don't come on here to do that

All i can say is, if it happens and Sony can get around the copyright issues, GT5 would be head and shoulders above everything else in the genre on that point alone. I agree, people would buy a PS3 and GT5 for that feature (assuming they like car games). And yes, PS3 and Sony are, already, way ahead of their rivals in terms of flexibility with regard to user content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonneymendoza

it doesnt matter if its from the publisher or not. the publisher is not the one making the content its the users that are. As long as you dont make money off it its fine mate. Pro evo's editing feature has become soo complex that you can pull off making the arsenal kit properly without any third party mods.

Why do you think the ps3 version of pro evo is soo popular? because you can download game files for it easily.

whether its a mod or done using the games creative tools it is still done by the user.

If their ever was a title that can put ps3 leaps and bounds ahead of its rivals, this is it. Just ask many racing fans from its rival consoles and the majority will be happy to buy a ps3 just for this game.

richmcveigh · 04-11-2009, 9:13 AM

This would be awesome if true!! I downloaded a user made Goodwood track for GTR Evolution and spent many competitive hours on it. I know the track in real life and have been round it a few times, and it was so much fun racing round a very familiar track.

If this turns out to be true, it would be the icing on the cake for me. But its so easy to get excited about unconfirmed things which then turn out to be a rumour. My fingers are tightly crossed though!

Paul_T · 04-11-2009, 11:13 AM

There were rumours a while ago that GT5 would get a livery editor and that it would be PC based with an import/export system onto USB so the liveries could be done in photoshop.

If the track editor followed this same route then track creation would be so much easier if you could grab satellite imagery of tracks from google earth.

Licensing though would be a grey area in that respect though - GT has had what everyone refers to the Monaco F1 track for years, but it's always called Cote d'Azur in game - wonder if we'll get Spar or Monzer?

Rock Da Bass · 04-11-2009, 1:18 PM

Never mind the "real" tracks. The fun will come in recreating your own street and racing around the block

jonneymendoza · 04-11-2009, 2:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norlo

The license holder could demand that the publisher of the game take down the user created content which is provided through the the publishers game on the grounds of copyright, and PD/Sony would have to do that.

Good post but how come forza 3's paint shop is filled with copyright stuff?

imo copyright shouldnt be an issue so long as your not advertising and selling the track as your own.

Maybe make a spar track but with different ad board or stands. no copyright their as it has to be the exact replicate for it to be a copyright infringement

Paul_T · 04-11-2009, 3:04 PM

I can just imagine what billboards will be going up around a "Spar" track already...

AMP1984 · 04-11-2009, 4:28 PM

There is going to be some serious fun in creating tracks if this is true. I like the idea of creating your own local streets so you can run your car or a supercar around your local area without any worries about getting caught by the cops!

Norlo · 04-11-2009, 5:48 PM

LONG POST ALERT

Good question about F3 JM. And one i thought i would reply too.

So, lets get this fact out there right away. If someone makes a recreation of a copyright or trademarked entity, without written permission of the license holder, the creator is in breach of copyright. That is law.

However, it is at the discretion of the licence holder as to how stringently they choose to enforce their lawful right. And that decision could be different dependant on the context in which the copyright entity that has been copied without permission is being used.

So, using the F3 storefront example, if McDonalds legal dept saw that someone had recreated a McD logo on the F3 store front, they could contact Turn 10 and ask that the logo recreation be removed on the grounds that McD have not given their permission for the user to recreate their logo. Turn 10 would remove it, and would also remove any other McD logos.

That is the case with any copyright entity recreated on storefront.

So why is storefront full of copyright logos?

Well, you have to think how the licence holder would think. And by that, I mean, there are people making these decisions in the legal departments of all these companies. It’s not some automated email that is fired out. The license holder is in the right in the eyes of the law, and as such, if they wish, they can have the entity that is in breach of their copyright removed.

So, a legal department would think along these lines…

1. Are we, the copyright holder of this logo, losing money because of he unauthorized logo being available on F3 storefront?

2. Is the unlicensed recreation of our logo negatively impacting our brand?

Those are the 2 big ones. Money gained from other people using your logo, and brand protection.

In the case of F3 storefront, I don’t see any gain for a company to demand their logo be taken down. That is not to say it won’t happen to F3 storefront at some point, because some companies are very protective of their brand regardless. But, providing the logo is recreated in a manner the licence holder is satisfied with, and providing the recreation is offered free of charge, I think most companies would not peruse the removal. I mean, what are McD’s going to do? Make their own official logo and put it on F3 storefront for free, no they are not. So in that situation, they would more than likely let it go.

So again, it is not because they can’t get it removed from F3 storefront, but more, there is little to be gained from doing so in terms of revenue or brand protection. And in that situation, I believe that most companies would probably look at it as free advertising. If people started making McD logo’s which looked like the real thing, but say, contained a racial slur or other such, then you would see that get taken down very quickly. Because that is going to negatively impact McD’s brand. Turn10 know this, which is why they ask you to ‘play nicely’ when you first load up Storefront.

However, with a track editor, I would strongly argue that an unauthorized user created track would not only negatively impact the brand (because I very much doubt a user created version of, let say Spa, would meet with the approval of the license holder), but also that it would lose the license holder potential licensing fees, without question.

Those 2 things combine are going to push virtually any licence holder I can think of, to demand the content be taken down, and because the content is offered through an official channel (i.e. the game itself), the publisher would have to comply.

User created tracks in GT are going to be moderated by PD, and we all know that people are going to recreate real world, copyright, tracks. What is comes down to is, will the licence holders seek to have the unlicensed user created tracks removed as is their lawful right, or let it slid like they do with logos and such on F3 storefront (so far).

If I were the legal person giving the advice, it would be the former without question.

humanfish · 04-11-2009, 10:54 PM

This hasn't been confirmed so i am not going to even think about it and try not to get excited/interested. I hope there isn't a load of threads slagging off PD if it turns out not to be in the game

Paul_T · 05-11-2009, 10:23 AM

I doubt PD will moderate any track submissions - the workload would be immense. It would have to self-moderating like F3, where users report offensive material.

As for sharing the tracks, well it could be that PD stop you distributing a track through GT itself, but what can they do about dumping it onto a USB stick then emailing it off to your buddies?

I can't see a track editor allowing you to create your own city streets, instead you'll have to work with existing assets that are in the game already.

Not sure Sony would be too fussed with getting everything officially sanctioned and "legally watertight" anyway - remember Resistance FOM and the Cathedral?

Jay · 26-11-2009, 3:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonneymendoza

d

Look at pro evo, you can create say for example, the arsenal kit yet it doesnt breach any licencing issues so to speak.

Yes it does.

That is why w.e.n.b had to remove their option file for pro evo due to Konami requests because it contained premiership team logos and kits.

jonneymendoza · 26-11-2009, 7:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indecisive Jay

Yes it does.

That is why w.e.n.b had to remove their option file for pro evo due to Konami requests because it contained premiership team logos and kits.

remove it from where? not evo web mate. why are you starting to attack various posts made by me on different threads since i opened up that reliability thread? first you go on a huff and puff on the gt5 forums on a post i made months ago and now this? you got an issue with me or something?

Jay · 28-11-2009, 3:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonneymendoza

remove it from where? not evo web mate. why are you starting to attack various posts made by me on different threads since i opened up that reliability thread? first you go on a huff and puff on the gt5 forums on a post i made months ago and now this? you got an issue with me or something?

I didn't say evo web, I said w.e.n.b LINK

They were told to remove the option file, Konami won't have time to go on every site but major sites like pes fan, wenb etc do not host any option files that contain premiership licences etc.

I use evo web for all my pc pacthes, great site

Nah I don't have a problem with you, I don't even know you, so I'd never have a problem with anyone I don't know.