Police. Who's side are they on?

[Bill Hicks]

So you have property and someone tries to break into it, so you make a citizens arrest.
You would expect the Police to be on you're side.............

Wouldn't you?

BBC NEWS | England | Kent | Man arrested for citizen's arrest

[Saldawop]

A couple of years ago I saw two kids(one wearing a tag) crash a stolen scooter into a car.One of the kids ran away.The other was injured but tried to run.The car owner chased him,and held on to him until the police arrived.Even though there was a witness(me) ,they seemed more interested in how the car owner had detained the boy.

[Geege]

Well we don't know the full facts. Why did he have a weapon with him? What happened when he confronted and detained the suspect? Why did he have a weapon? Did he use reasonable force in order to detain the suspect?

Det Insp Andy Pritchard said: "We've received quite a number of allegations from quite a large number of people stating there is a serious allegation here of assault and the carrying of a weapon."

[mij]

A citizens arrest is not as simple as many think it is, too many grey areas.

Sounded like kids being kids in an allotment and he wanted to batter them, an over reaction due to fear brought on by the daily media led hysteria we now live with.

A good whack with his spade would have been more than enough punishment for them & maybe force-feeding them some raw onions, but you do have to be careful with not going too far.

[eric pisch]

ahhh nulabores policy of protecting the criminals rights, he should have known better by now

and they wonder why there are armies of thugs roaming london, stealing, mugging, stabbing at will with no fear of any consequence

[Wild Weasel]

It's not the first time this has happened. The police are paranoid about the public doing their job for them. Usually they charge the person who made the citizen's arrest with wrongful imprisonment and let the real criminal off with a pathetic police warning.

[Codehead]

Minimum/Reasonable force is the key phrase here. Self defence does not extend to detaining someone.
That said, if the brown adrenaline is flowing, it's hard not to get carried away.

The problem is, chasing someone off repeatedly and staying within the law like good citizen is tiresome. At some point, you're going to try to put a stop to the problem if the authorities can't deal with it. I suspect that's what's happened here. Why else would the guy need a weapon in an alotment? Really big snails?

[Saldawop]

What is a weapon? Almost anything.Perhaps he had a trowel in his hand,or a shovel,or a broom. Something that one might be expected to be carrying on an allotment.

[andrew markwort]

This is one of the grey areas of the law where it can seem ridiculous. If someone is clearly committing a crime on your property, why should you be held accountable? The most extreme example I can think of is someone who was breaking into a factory who fell through the roof and successfully sued the factory owners for having an unsafe roof.

However, the issue comes down to what is reasonable behaviour if the person detained or hurt is innocent. Suppose in the roof example, someone had been up there for an innocent reason (e.g. they were a contracted workman, a dad had gone on the roof to retrieve their kid's kite, that sort of thing). In those circumstances, it would be right that the owners were sued. Again, suppose that some have a go hero detained you because you were innocently passing the scene of the crime and you looked suspicious. How would you feel about being physically restrained, threatened with being hit, etc? You would (rightly) have grounds for suing the person.

I know that it makes the blood boil when police appear to be bovine over this, but the point of the law is that it must unambiguously protect the innocent. If this means the guilty get away with things on occasion, then that is the price to be paid. The alternative is far worse. How would you like it if vigilante groups started patrolling the neighbourhoods assuming police powers when they saw anyone they thought was suspicious?

Having said all of this, I've tried being a good citizen on a couple of occasions and the police have treated me like a time-wasting moron. For example, I once found £200 in notes tied up with a rubber band in the street. I handed it in to the police station and they treated me like I was a gullible idiot ('oh well, I'd better do the paperwork' was the response I got; actually, I got to keep the money in the end because no one claimed it, but that's besides the point ). Or on another occasion I saw a group of chav teens, none above the age of about 15, driving a brand new Rover pretty erratically along a road, pulling over onto the verge so they could swap drivers. I phoned the police and got the question - 'why do you think they could have stolen the car?'.

[Codehead]

Originally Posted by Saldawop

What is a weapon? Almost anything.Perhaps he had a trowel in his hand,or a shovel,or a broom. Something that one might be expected to be carrying on an allotment.

Indeed, the peasants of feudal Japan were pretty handy with agricultural tools.

[benjohnson]

Yup, you can kill someone with a pencil...

As we are not in possesion of all the facts, then it is irrelevant to comment, but 'reasonable force' differs from person to person - self defence is an admissable plea if you were in fear of imminent harm to yourself or others, but as he was chasing them away apparently with a weapon, I doubt that'd wash

[FZR400RRSP]

Originally Posted by Saldawop

What is a weapon?

I would take a stab (sic), that the the legal definition of a weapon is 'something that it is reasonable to assume may be being carried with the intention of causing harm'
One would assume someone carrying a knife may be doing so to cause harm.
One would not assume someone carrying a pencil may intend to do harm.
So one is classed as a potential weapon, one isn't.

I would guess location comes into the equation as well.
For example, I may face a 'weapon' charge if I'm carrying a Stanley knife down a high street at 11pm at night.
I probably won't face a 'weapon' charge if I've just purchased a stanley knife in B+Q and I'm walking to my car with it.

[Geege]

I don't think there was any issue with the citizen's power of arrest, from what I've read in the article this was fine, I think the question is what amount of force did he use in order to detain the suspect. Was this reasonable? and proportionate to the circumstances?

[Kebabhead]

Whilst watching an episode of Road Wars last week, the Police were called to a citiznes arrest for attempted burglary

The supsect had been detained by three men one of who was weilding a baseball bat

The Police arrested the supsect who whilst being driven back to the station claimed he had been assaulted and why the police had arrested the men. Being black he then proceeded to play the race card

Nothing came of the incident, none of the men were questioned and the suspect was let off with a caution

I think consisitency or lack of between police forces is the problem

[benjohnson]

Originally Posted by Geege

I don't think there was any issue with the citizen's power of arrest, from what I've read in the article this was fine, I think the question is what amount of force did he use in order to detain the suspect. Was this reasonable? and proportionate to the circumstances?

That's the rub - 'reasonable' is a very subjective term, some people would relish the oppourtunity to measure out some of their own 'justice'...

Also these youths were 'attempting' to break into the sheds, meaning they hadn't actually done anything criminal at that point, so the arrest could well have been unlawful