Am I over a barrel?

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:25 AM

I have done about £5k of work for a customer on a piece of equipment. The customer has gone bankrupt and I now have a finance company calling me saying that they want to come and collect it because there is outstanding credit. Do I just give them it and kiss goodbye to £5k?

Cheers.

_dark_blu · 12-05-2009, 11:28 AM

If you have no other option I'd make sure you accidentally dropped it down a flight of stairs first. Several times.

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:31 AM

I'd love to but it is a 6 ton dumper truck!

FZR400RRSP · 12-05-2009, 11:32 AM

I always thought 'possession was 9/10 of the law'.
You possess the item.
We often 'hold' equipment over unsettled bills.
Can't you do the same???

I certainly wouldn't release the truck to them without getting proper advice!!

PoochJD · 12-05-2009, 11:40 AM

Hi,

Bowfer's spot-on, I believe! If the finance company want the money, then if I were you, I'd explain to them, exactly why they WON'T be getting that truck back anytime soon, until you get the money you are owed for the work undertaken upon it.

Alterntively, find out where their head office is, and take a nice test drive through it, park it somewhere really awful, and then tell them that they can have the truck back, gratis!

Pooch

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:40 AM

I'm not sure how it works because the person we were doing the work for has gone bust so does our agreement stop with him? The other thing is that it is still not fixed and will be almost impossible to move.

FZR400RRSP · 12-05-2009, 11:43 AM

My first move would be to inform the finance company it can't be moved as it hasn't been fully repaired.
So no point them sending in a truck to collect it.
That should buy you some breathing time to make your next move, which should be to phone your company solicitor!

Basically though, as I see it.
If a finance company own it, I would assume they want it back in a working state.
No good to them knackered.
In which case, they might as well pay you to repair it....?

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowfer

My first move would be to inform the finance company it can't be moved as it hasn't been fully repaired.
So no point them sending in a truck to collect it.
That should buy you some breathing time to make your next move, which should be to phone your company solicitor!

Basically though, as I see it.
If a finance company own it, I would assume they want it back in a working state.
No good to them knackered.
In which case, they might as well pay you to repair it....?

That's what I'm going to try to find out.

mickevh · 12-05-2009, 11:48 AM

Sounds like your customer bought the kit on some form of HP ????

If so, I think that the HP company "owns" the item until the last payment has been made. If that is the case, the item doesn't belong to you or your customer, so you can't withhold it from the HP co. - it would probably be regarded as theft. (Unless you want to start making the payments I guess.) Neither could you sell it as it isn't your's to sell.

If your customer has gone bankrupt, then I guess you have to get in line with all his other creditors for the debt he owes you.

Do you have any insurance against such eventualities? Does you customer?

W0LFIE · 12-05-2009, 11:49 AM

I once took my car to a garage. They inspected the car thoroughly & told me it would be £X to fix it. I agreed.
2 days later they ring me to say the work is done but its going to cost more as they had to do more than they 1st thought.
I contacted Citizens advice who unfortunately told me the garage had every right to hold onto the car until the amount they had demanded had been paid, I would then have to dispute any difference in court.

In the same way I think you have every right to hold onto the goods until you are paid, if anyone disputes this they must pay first and claim later.

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:49 AM

The other thing is that we did work on another JCB including replacing track motors etc. which we still have not been paid for (about £2k worth of parts which we paid for ourselves and added to the bill)...can I go back and get the equipment that has not been paid for? It does say on the bill we gave him that all parts remain ours until paid for...

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 11:59 AM

At the moment the dumper is going to be almost impossible to move so I don't know how they are intending to collect it.

Naaktgeboren · 12-05-2009, 12:10 PM

I would inform the finance company that it is 'mid complete' and as they are now the owners, it would either cost them 2.5k in order to be brought upto a level where it can be collected or for 5k you will complete the job.

Tell them it is in pieces and they wont need a lorry to collect it

I am sure they will pay you to sort it

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 12:12 PM

Just got off the phone with them. They asked for a bill to be forwarded to them and they will see what they can do. They know it is not fully repaired and will come back to me with what they want doing...even asked if I wanted to buy it off them.

FZR400RRSP · 12-05-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickevh

If your customer has gone bankrupt, then I guess you have to get in line with all his other creditors for the debt he owes you.

But this piece of equipment wasn't owned by the bankrupt company.
It's owned by the finance company.

Naaktgeboren · 12-05-2009, 12:16 PM

The more I think about this, the ownership is simply being transferred from your original client to the finance company.

The work you have done on the equipment still has to be paid for and as the finance company are the owners, they are liable. I would not back down on this, no doubt they will come back with a £500 offer, just tell them that if the work is not paid for, maybe you should both let the courts decide on the outcome.

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowfer

But this piece of equipment wasn't owned by the bankrupt company.
It's owned by the finance company.

Yes, the official reciver has not called me to collect it as it is not an asset of my original customer, it is owned by the finance company.

Jenn · 12-05-2009, 12:27 PM

If you are a member of the Federation of Small Businesses (FSB), they have a free legal helpline you can call (that alone is worth the price of the membership).

Dony · 12-05-2009, 12:28 PM

I've had something similar happen me. Basically, the finance company need to sell the dumper to clear as much of the debt as possible.

If you think you can sell it, to get your money back, offer them a low figure for it.

If you don't want to go this route, then as others have said, a dumper that is in a condition unfit for use is no good to them, so offer to transfer the repair bill in their name and give them a rough idea when the work will be completed.

You are dealing with someone who doesn't know the difference between a photo-copier and a dumper, it's just something they need to clear off their books, so they are dependant on you at the moment. Send them an itemised bill of the work carried out to date, and also what it will take to get the thing running again. Don't go over-board with your prices though, as they will get an alternative quote.

Hope it works out for you.

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 12:30 PM

I will send them a bill for what I am owed in terms of labour and parts so far as well as the collection of the machine which I also footed the bill for initially.

mickevh · 12-05-2009, 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowfer

But this piece of equipment wasn't owned by the bankrupt company.
It's owned by the finance company.

Indeed. But the debt owed to the OP for the "repair work" is from the bankrupt company, not the finance company that own the asset. You'd have to recover that debt from the administrators of the bankrupted co.

But as has been mentioned, the finance co might be willing to cut a deal if their asset is essentially valueless without the repairs.

(I'm not a lawyer I should point out.)

FZR400RRSP · 12-05-2009, 1:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickevh

Indeed. But the debt owed to the OP for the "repair work" is from the bankrupt company, not the finance company that own the asset. You'd have to recover that debt from the administrators of the bankrupted co.

That's fair comment, I did consider that.
But is 'Decadence' under any obligation to release the item to the finance company?
Surely, in having possession of it, he has some considerable leverage.
We have, in the past, refused to release cargo until 'someone' pays charges.
We don't care who, no-one's getting it until we're paid.
They can argue amongst themselves.
We've never been forced to hand over cargo with charges still pending.
So there is evidence that we are 'ok' to use this procedure.
That's what I'm basing my whole argument on, rightly or wrongly.

paul1967 · 12-05-2009, 7:56 PM

You can keep it till the bill is paid a friend I mine's boss has a truck from to a famous construction company thats gone bust ie they have big diamond in the bank that they have it wedged in the work shop,owned by a finance company been told by there lawyer to keep it there till it's paid

Decadence · 12-05-2009, 8:02 PM

Thanks, we're in a similar situation, it's a 6 ton dumper with a broken gearbox and 4 flat tyres.

kbfern · 12-05-2009, 10:12 PM

By the way that Diamond was a Ruby and worth nowhere near the £11 mill they said it was worth.

kopchoir · 12-05-2009, 10:17 PM

can you not also charge them for keeping the dumper its on your premises insured by your insurance company i would aslo tell them that your charging them for storage

they will soon pay up when you charge them 500 quid a day

mrmcdean · 12-05-2009, 10:18 PM

Dare I suggest mentioning a charge you will make for "storing the machine" whilst it is in its current state, the quicker they pay you to carry out the full repair the better......

Perhaps unworkable, just a thought.

EDIT: Beat me to it !!

Dony · 12-05-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kopchoir

can you not also charge them for keeping the dumper its on your premises insured by your insurance company i would aslo tell them that your charging them for storage

they will soon pay up when you charge them 500 quid a day

I doubt that would work...for £500 they could hire in a low loader and crane and lift it out.

Alternately, they could use a low loader and crane that they probably recently repossessed.

FZR400RRSP · 13-05-2009, 8:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dony

I doubt that would work...for £500 they could hire in a low loader and crane and lift it out.

Not without access permission they couldn't.

I think 'Decadence' has every right to charge a storage fee until the outstanding work is paid for.
Only then should he give them access to collect it.

paul1967 · 13-05-2009, 9:01 AM

Oh yes the friends company is charging them £10 a day storage. This is all above board.