[Bill Hicks]

BBC NEWS | UK | Ministers 'using fear of terror'

Damn!

[loz]

in a word, yes.

[Perceval]

^ + 1

[NewMan]

We aren't being "scared out of our rights" - that would imply that we're freely, democratically giving up these rights. We're not, they are simply being removed by those who would use fear of terrorism as an excuse.

[monkeyleader]

As Benji Franklin would say

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety

The essential liberty is being lost in things like

- where we can take photos
- what I can take on a plane
- how many dam forms I need to fill out before I can travel (each and every time)

Slowly but surely it's being chipped away !

Nige

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by monkeyleader

The essential liberty is being lost in things like

- what I can take on a plane

I'm pleased that there are all these restrictions on what one can take on a plane as it certainly makes me feel more secure when I'm flying

[krish]

the politics of fear is as old as politics itself

[Kebabhead]

Who needs politics when you've got the media

[eric pisch]

Originally Posted by krish

the politics of fear is as old as politics itself

3 basic ways to keep a populous happy and ignoring your mismanagement of the affairs.

1) Keep them entertained / encourage there blood lust like the Romans.

2) Encourage and support the 2 largest sections of the society that don't get on to start killing each other (such as in Ireland or Iraq)

3) Create Fear and Hysteria so the populous will go along with anything you say, need to spend billions on nuclear weapons - get people scared of the Russians, need more taxes - beware Global Warming, Want to violate personal liberty - terrorists are going to blow you up in your sleep.

[daveaka]

daily mash

THE former head of MI5 last night finally twigged that thing the rest of us realised about seven years ago.

Dame Stella Rimington said the government was exploiting the public's fear of terrorism to restrict civil liberties, before pointing out that Top of the Pops isn't on anymore either.

..... link

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I'm pleased that there are all these restrictions on what one can take on a plane as it certainly makes me feel more secure when I'm flying

Absolutely.

The world needs restrictions for some things otherwise it'd be a whole lot messier than it is.


What exactly would someone need to take on a plane that they're not allowed?

[RMCF]

The fear of terror has been used to bring in a Big Brother society, invade a country to get oil and torturemurder innocent people.

But if you get everybody scared out of their wits, then you can get away with a lot, including murder.

[lucasisking]

Surely the fact that such restrictions are necessary should trouble us- not 'make us feel safer'. Having to modify our way of life, and restrict our freedoms, even in a minute way is a small victory for those who threaten our safety.

The inconvenience of increased security doesn't bother me in the slightest- but the need for it bothers me greatly. Life should be safer in the 21st Century, not more hazardous.

I am more concerned with the loss of freedom of speech than freedom of movement, as demonstrated by a recent incident involving a Dutch MP. Since there's no thread on this subject, can I assume the moderators would rather leave that particular topic alone?

[Jenn]

Hermann Goering said

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

and it doesn't work with just wars...

[monkeyleader]

Originally Posted by Ian J

I'm pleased that there are all these restrictions on what one can take on a plane as it certainly makes me feel more secure when I'm flying

Do it as often as I do it and it becomes a pain, beleive me ! I certainly don't feel any safer either - who needs terrorists to bring down planes when a perceived reduction in maintenance due to the credit crunch seems to be doing that for them ..... but then that's a whole different subject !

[eric pisch]

Originally Posted by Jenn

Hermann Goering said



and it doesn't work with just wars...

Hmm where did we hear this in the not to distant past

something about attack, wmd and 45 mins comes to mind....

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by monkeyleader

Do it as often as I do it and it becomes a pain, beleive me ! I certainly don't feel any safer either - who needs terrorists to bring down planes when a perceived reduction in maintenance due to the credit crunch seems to be doing that for them ..... but then that's a whole different subject !

I'm sure you'd be quick to complain when there was an attempted hi-jacking on a plane because security measures were not up to standard.

[monkeyleader]

Originally Posted by Iccz

I'm sure you'd be quick to complain when there was an attempted hi-jacking on a plane because security measures were not up to standard.

You are missing the point. I'm all for proper security, but some of the measurements that have been introuduced are, IMO, a complete farce.

Take the 100ml liquid rule

- if you take on a 150ml bottle, but there is only 3 sprays worth of perfum left in it why can't the bloke make a "sensible" call and let it on
- the 100ml rule but no limit on the number of smaller bottles you can take on. If it took 101ml to blow up a plan then what's stopping someone carrying on several smaller bottles ...

This rule has led people to feel safer when in fact it's not really doing much in the long run (and I go back to the BF quote!)

[RMCF]

Agree.

I feel that too many airport security personnel - sorry those people who check your bags, could hardly call them 'security', just jumped-up idiots who think they are police, have got carried away with their powers.

It all was summed up for me at my local airport about 2 years ago when a very old and frail woman (I would estimate late 80s) was forced to try to lift her legs up so that the 'security' guy could see the undersides of her shoes. Her entire search, bag and all, took nearly 3 full mins as she was very slow in movement.

Hardly the sort of person to bring the plane down.

Idiots.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by monkeyleader

You are missing the point. I'm all for proper security, but some of the measurements that have been introuduced are, IMO, a complete farce.

Take the 100ml liquid rule

- if you take on a 150ml bottle, but there is only 3 sprays worth of perfum left in it why can't the bloke make a "sensible" call and let it on
- the 100ml rule but no limit on the number of smaller bottles you can take on. If it took 101ml to blow up a plan then what's stopping someone carrying on several smaller bottles ...

This rule has led people to feel safer when in fact it's not really doing much in the long run (and I go back to the BF quote!)

Fair enough I missed that point, but you did just simply say what you could take onto planes... you didn't say that the 100ml rule was the annoying part, I agree with that it's ridiculous, but most others such as scissors etc make perfect sense.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by monkeyleader

You are missing the point. I'm all for proper security, but some of the measurements that have been introuduced are, IMO, a complete farce.

Take the 100ml liquid rule

- if you take on a 150ml bottle, but there is only 3 sprays worth of perfum left in it why can't the bloke make a "sensible" call and let it on

Because the great British public would take the watsit and argue incessantly about it.

- the 100ml rule but no limit on the number of smaller bottles you can take on. If it took 101ml to blow up a plan then what's stopping someone carrying on several smaller bottles ...

But with no one bottle larger than 100ml you still can't mix a big enough explosive mix.

[Llamatronian]

Originally Posted by andykn

But with no one bottle larger than 100ml you still can't mix a big enough explosive mix.

Just playing Devils advocate , but could a person not just fabricate a bowl of some discription from another object - a deflated beach ball for example?

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by daxllama

Just playing Devils advocate , but could a person not just fabricate a bowl of some discription from another object - a deflated beach ball for example?

If this sparks off a beach ball ban on planes my friend, the torches and pitch forks will be out, you mark my words

[fencer90]

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

[Llamatronian]

Originally Posted by Iccz

If this sparks off a beach ball ban on planes my friend, the torches and pitch forks will be out, you mark my words

Sorry If it helps I can edit my post and replace beach ball with something else.

[Wild Weasel]

I don't thing anything would get the torches and pitch forks out in this country anymore. We wouldn't be able to get insurance cover for health & safety reasons.

[Iccz]

Originally Posted by Wild Weasel

I don't thing anything would get the torches and pitch forks out in this country anymore. We wouldn't be able to get insurance cover for health & safety reasons.

Good point, I think we'd have to use energy efficient LED torches and foam padded NERF baseball bat type things... doesn't quite have the same effect does it

[Llamatronian]

Originally Posted by Iccz

Good point, I think we'd have to use energy efficient LED torches and foam padded NERF baseball bat type things... doesn't quite have the same effect does it

I think I could live with the LED and NERF assault. Just don't go shining any laser pens at any planes flying over my house!

[FunkyMunkey]

I'm not a Lib Dem, but I encourage everyone to sign up to thier Ban ID Cards campaign

[Steven]

The Government know that they are out of a job in 1.5 years. The other concerning aspect is that the terrorism legislation enacted has been used out of context, such as by local councils

Originally Posted by monkeyleader

- where we can take photos

Unfortunately seemingly the majority of police officers think they are entitled to stop people taking photographs in a public place. And I would suggest that Police commissioners or the Government are particular actively educating officers

I also have to ask whether there is a group not marked down to be on a database in future

Would it be fair to ask whether the British public are more scared of this Labour government than terrorists?