[mjn]

Let me start by saying, i'm neither a smoker, nor an overweight person.

However, i'm a little confused by it all.

The anti-smoking brigade harp on constantly that smoking related illnesses cost the NHS around £1.2billion every year, and that the £1.2 billion spent on smokers could be put to better use on more worthwhile causes. They usually forget to mention that smoking raises around £9 billion per year in taxes, and that £9 billion comes from a small part of the population (assuming 1 in 5 people smoke).

Now obesity is estimated to cost the NHS £9 billion per year in treatment, but there is no fat tax to help pay for this. With an estimated 75% of the population either overweight or obese, surely this is a bigger problem than 20% of the population who are smokers?

Is this because smokers are easy targets? Nobody likes to tell a fat person, "you're fat, lose some weight"? Taxing cigarettes is easy, as it only hits smokers in the pocket? Fat tax would be impossible to administrate?

Or have a missed something?

Oh, and can we keep the smoking ban out of it, thanks

[Ultima]

What about the 17.5% vat on chocolates and sweets.

[klr10]

I think there is a closer link between the two. Every person I know who has stopped smoking has put on weight (including myself). Luckily for me I caught it before it got out of hand, but if all those who gave up experienced the same effects well that would partially explain the rise in obesity...

[FunkyMunkey]

It's not just that smokers are easy targets, it's that obesity has a certain "freak factor" about it, so it's much easier to say "look at the fatty" and laugh off the problem.

Also, obesity is only a fairly recent problem; whereas the stigma about smoking, and the appreciation of its effects, have had far longer to build up.

The government should take a COPD patient and a morbidly (25 stone+) obese person into every school in this country so that kids can see the effects these habits can have on their bodies.

[danmc_82]

Originally Posted by klr10

I think there is a closer link between the two. Every person I know who has stopped smoking has put on weight (including myself). Luckily for me I caught it before it got out of hand, but if all those who gave up experienced the same effects well that would partially explain the rise in obesity...

Are people who quit smoking gaining wait because eating is comforting to them?

Tax the fat?

Why not scap the NHS.

I'm sick of paying for all the pesky diseases that I don't have.

Think off all kids with leukemia wasting away tax pounds when it could be spent on your needs.

[Sonic67]

Smoking isn't banned just smoking by other people as it's bad for them. If I'm sat in a room full of other people eating I don't get obese as a result do I?

[Jenn]

Because there is more to being fat than just stuffing your face (although many easily forget about that or simply don't believe it)?

Whether you like it or not genetics are involved to some degree, there are hormonal problems, illnesses, some people put weight on through stress, some have eating disorders, some work so much that they have no energy left to cook a healthy diner and end up on fattening ready meals or take aways (let alone have time to exercise), some have been fat from a young age and struggle with weight in general (in which case you can't blame them) and yes some are simply greedy.

How do you deferenciate between all them? You can't tax fatty food because that would punish the "healthy" people who enjoy the rare take away.

With cigarette it's more clear cut, either you smoke or not - saying that I don't see why they shouldn't get the exact same treatment on the NHS as the rest of us, regardless of how much it costs.
You don't see people who practise sport being moaned at for costing the NHS through their sport injuries? Wear on the joints, fractures, muscles injuries and all that?

We all pay for the NHS so we should all get treated the same or if we start moaning about cost we may as well scrap the NHS because nobody leads a perfect life where they don't do anything that could affect their health.

[Toasty]

This is a tough one, however, I don't have any stats to back this up but I suspect the number of smokers have reduced quite a bit over recent years, therefore reducing the stress on the NHS and ultimately this is a good thing, why reverse that trend?

Obesity appears to be a newer issue, probably brought on by the growth of the fast food industry and mass media advertising. A bit of a generalised statement I know, but those ads for burgers look more tasty than those carrot ads, oh, there's no carrot ads

Joking aside, the obesity problem has to be tackled just as the smoking problem was, it's just it's still in the early phases of finding solutions..

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Mickey G

Why not scap the NHS.

I'm sick of paying for all the pesky diseases that I don't have.

Think off all kids with leukemia wasting away tax pounds when it could be spent on your needs.

My daughter is currently in hospital with leukemia and has been given a 40% chance of surviving for four years but I've never been particularly worried about the opinions of scrotes like yourself anyway.

[indianwells]

Originally Posted by Ian J

My daughter is currently in hospital with leukemia and has been given a 40% chance of surviving for four years but I've never been particularly worried about the opinions of scrotes like yourself anyway.

I think his comment was tongue in cheek Ian, at least I hope it was..

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by Ian J

My daughter is currently in hospital with leukemia and has been given a 40% chance of surviving for four years but I've never been particularly worried about the opinions of scrotes like yourself anyway.

Sorry to hear that Ian, truly sorry.

Martin

[deanym]

Originally Posted by Ian J

My daughter is currently in hospital with leukemia and has been given a 40% chance of surviving for four years but I've never been particularly worried about the opinions of scrotes like yourself anyway.

Sorry to hear that news. I hope she's as comfortable as possible.

I think Mickey G was being sarcastic.

[FunkyMunkey]

Originally Posted by Jenn

You don't see people who practise sport being moaned at for costing the NHS through their sport injuries? Wear on the joints, fractures, muscles injuries and all that?

That's not actually true. Many doctors take a dim view on what they term "self-inflicted injuries". I know a physio who works for a local rugby team, and if one of her players injures himself playing rugby, she tells him to change out of his kit before going to hospital!

Originally Posted by Ian J

My daughter is currently in hospital with leukemia and has been given a 40% chance of surviving for four years but I've never been particularly worried about the opinions of scrotes like yourself anyway.

apologies. I thought it was obvious that I was making point that we shouldn't discriminate on peoples health care

You are discriminating against me because of my physical condition. Why should you expect me to pay for your heath care if you are not prepared to pay for my health care.




Sinsarly I am sorry to hear about your daughters condition.

[FunkyMunkey]

Originally Posted by Mickey G

But thank you making a personal remark and insulting me.

ok, so I over reacted.

sorry. from the scote

Back on topic.

Firstly, I think we are over-taxed in the country and I don't think we need any more.

Secondly, I have battled with my weight since I was a child. I don't choose to be overweight. I exercise regularly, I try to eat well but it's just something I have always struggled with. So the question is. should I be taxed more or refused health care. I say no.

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by Mickey G

Back on topic.

Firstly, I think we are over-tax in the country and I don't think we need any more.

Secondly, I have battled with my weight since I was a child. I don't choose to be overweight. I exercise regularly, I try to eat well but it's just something I have always struggled with. So the question is. should I be taxed more or refused health care. I say no.

No you shouldn't. Like Jenn posted earlier, weight gain/problems are in many cases not self inflicted so why should these sufferers be penalised.

Smokers on the other hand..............

[Toasty]

Obesity is such a wide area of issues it's hard to pin down one solution. I wouldn't advocate food tax, however, clearly labelling food and being tougher on fast food promotional regulation is a step in the right direction.

There's also an opportunity to tackle some of the causes of obesity. If you don't exercise and have a bad diet, you're likely to become overweight and generally have bad health. Promoting healthy eating, fitness and making sporting activities affordable and easily accessible has to be encouraged. This is where schools and social clubs are invaluable and should not be neglected in terms of support and funding.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Ultima

weight gain/problems are in many cases not self inflicted so why should these sufferers be penalised.

Smokers on the other hand..............

It's easy to decry the smoker but there has always been pressure on people to smoke from advertisements making out that only real men smoked to peer pressure from more modern youngsters.

It isn't as easy to give up as some people think as it is highly addictive and those people with addictive personalities will find it a real struggle. I tried and failed many times having been a heavy smoker for decades but finally cracked it on News Year Day about six years ago.

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by Ian J

It's easy to decry the smoker but there has always been pressure on people to smoke from advertisements making out that only real men smoked to peer pressure from more modern youngsters.

It isn't as easy to give up as some people think as it is highly addictive and those people with addictive personalities will find it a real struggle. I tried and failed many times having been a heavy smoker for decades but finally cracked it on News Year Day about six years ago.

I was brought up on a council estate and went to a very dodgy school where smoking/drugs/glue sniffing etc was a common sight.

I never bowed to peer pressure and just told them all they were idiots to be doing what they were doing but I could understand how the weaker willed got involved because of pressure from their "friends".

Well done for giving up smoking......I know it's difficult, my mother has been trying for years to give up and after problems with her health and warnings from her doctor she hasn't smoked now for over a year, which after 50 or so years smoking is an achievement.

Martin

[Toasty]

Originally Posted by Ian J

It isn't as easy to give up as some people think as it is highly addictive and those people with addictive personalities will find it a real struggle. I tried and failed many times having been a heavy smoker for decades but finally cracked it on News Year Day about six years ago.

As someone who has also been addicted to cigarettes I completely agree, however, there is a lot of support for smokers wanting to give up, whether it be product, books or government led schemes. There's not really a stigma to it, eg, Do you smoke? Do you want to give up? Then try this..

Obesity is IMHO a more sensitive issue, and while I'm probably wrong, I don't see as much support. And it's not as effective to say: Are you obese? Want to get thinner? Then try this..

Sounds like it should be simple, but you don't see campaigns worded as such and it raises public issues such as: Am I obese? How do I tell? I'm happy who I am, I'm probably overweight but it's due to X, etc.

[Jenn]

Originally Posted by Ian J

It isn't as easy to give up as some people think as it is highly addictive and those people with addictive personalities will find it a real struggle. I tried and failed many times having been a heavy smoker for decades but finally cracked it on News Year Day about six years ago.

Which is why smokers shouldn't be treated differently by the NHS. Yes at the start you do make a choice to start smoking, whether it's because of pressure or not, but after a while you're just an "addict" and then you can't just be told it's all your fault.

Either everyone gets treated the same or nobody gets any treatment under the NHS - or a Pay as you Go system should be implemented but then it would go to "the rich can afford all the excess and unhealthy stuff they like while the poor die from being poor".

I agree with Jenn,

It's all about carrot and stick. I think education is the key.

We need more carrot and less stick (especailly for us fatties)

[NewMan]

Originally Posted by Ultima

No you shouldn't. Like Jenn posted earlier, weight gain/problems are in many cases not self inflicted so why should these sufferers be penalised.

Smokers on the other hand..............

And once again, the fact that smokers contribute around £9bn a year in tax (as opposed to the £1.2bn smoking-related illness costs the NHS) is forgotten.
If any government were more interested in peoples health than the £7.8bn a year surplus in their coffers, they'd ban tobacco - anyone willing to bet that'll happen?

If smokers are to be denied access to NHS treatment, or treated as less than human by NHS doctors, then remove tax on cigarettes and allow us to opt-out of NHS care (thereby removing the NI contribution) in favour of private medical cover... At least I'd be treated as well as I could afford, rather than of the basis of what LEGAL vices I enjoy. The NHS would probably collapse within a year...

Signed,

A. Smoker
(The only minority it is still legal to discriminate against)

[Steven]

Originally Posted by NewMan

And once again, the fact that smokers contribute around £9bn a year in tax (as opposed to the £1.2bn smoking-related illness costs the NHS) is forgotten.

It is heartening you can put a monetary cost on smoking and passive smoking related illnesses and deaths

LFC_SL

[alexs2]

Originally Posted by Mickey G

apologies. I thought it was obvious that I was making point that we shouldn't discriminate on peoples health care

You are discriminating against me because of my physical condition. Why should you expect me to pay for your heath care if you are not prepared to pay for my health care.




Sinsarly I am sorry to hear about your daughters condition.

It's perhaps worth putting one's brain in gear before making sweeping statements on a forum with a very large membership.


It's also worth pointing out that to a very large degree,the NHS does NOT discriminate against people on any grounds,be they age,weight,smoking or whatever.

[Ultima]

Originally Posted by NewMan

And once again, the fact that smokers contribute around £9bn a year in tax (as opposed to the £1.2bn smoking-related illness costs the NHS) is forgotten.
If any government were more interested in peoples health than the £7.8bn a year surplus in their coffers, they'd ban tobacco - anyone willing to bet that'll happen?

If smokers are to be denied access to NHS treatment, or treated as less than human by NHS doctors, then remove tax on cigarettes and allow us to opt-out of NHS care (thereby removing the NI contribution) in favour of private medical cover... At least I'd be treated as well as I could afford, rather than of the basis of what LEGAL vices I enjoy. The NHS would probably collapse within a year...

Signed,

A. Smoker
(The only minority it is still legal to discriminate against)

I suppose that all the money smokers raise in taxes for this country is compensation for all those that have died from passive smoking.

I wasn't trying to say that smokers shouldn't get treatment free under the NHS, I was trying to say their illnesses are self inflicted.

Martin

[Jenn]

Originally Posted by Mickey G

I think education is the key.

Not just that !

Some take aways are so cheap that there's no wonder some people buy them instead of ridiculously expensive vegetables and fruits.

Also look at the supermarkets, in our local (bigish) Tesco there are fruits and veg ok but the range is basically bananas, oranges and potatoes (ok I exagerate a bit but not much). My parents' local medium sized supermarket in France has an enormous range of fruit and veg available, all nicely displayed under a mist spray to keep them fresh ! Don't you find it sad that I had to get my mum to send me some globe artichoke through the post because I couldn't find any here (after 5 supermarkets and the village market)?

Look at the healthy ready meals (for people who work too much to feel like cooking), they look and taste so bland I think I'd rather be obese than inflict them on myself.

And then, encourage people to cook fresh healthy meals at home? That'd be brilliant if most couples didn't both work 45 hours a week each then having around 2 hours a day in traffic, coming home knackered.
Let alone if they have kids.

Yes it's a lot of excuses and obviously many people manage to keep healthy but I think our current lifestyles of working hard to afford the mortgage, with all the stress involved, is what's causing some of the increase in obesity.