[la gran siete]

They may well get my vote next time as voting NL in Worthing is a wasted vote and in any case I am heartily sick of that interfering busy body Harriet Harman attempts at criminalizing punters.God knows whats crawling round her rectum but she has as much chance of stamping out punting as I have of walking on the moon.All that will happen is she will simply drive it underground further with all the attendant health risks that implies- silly moo.Liberal means being open minded so i assume they would be more likely to first fully legalize then regulate the trade in a proper fashion

[pave]

Any help........



http://www.libdems.org.uk/

[Steven]

Ahh... a vote by default

In response to your final point, I would presume that for any political party of any affiliation, it is altogether a simple job of contradicting Labour these days to score brownie points

[Mr Incredible]

IIRC the two points which stick in my mind which are different to anything which NL or Conservatives have, is proportional representation and local income tax instead of council tax. There may be other "subtleties", but those are what I recall.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by Mr Incredible

IIRC the two points which stick in my mind which are different to anything which NL or Conservatives have, is proportional representation and local income tax instead of council tax. There may be other "subtleties", but those are what I recall.

in the long distant past they stood for free trade but also social reforms as in removing the slave trade and introducing a pension scheme but now????What is their basic philosophy?
I' ll read that link

[Wild Weasel]

When you find out, please let the Lib Dems know.

[GBDG1]

I wrote my Dissertation on them and I can't tell you.

[Steven]

Did you pass?

[GBDG1]

Originally Posted by lfc_sl

did you pass?

2:1

[Sonic67]

Only mainstream party to be against the Iraq war.

[Setenza]

Don't they shoot your dog if you don't vote for them?

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Xusia Of Delos

Don't they shoot your dog if you don't vote for them?

Most of them are too young for that one Xusia...........

I do wonder myself to be honest LGS. They used to be a reasonable option in areas where Labour wouldn't stand a chance, but these days, like the Tories and the New Tories, they have lurched steadily to the right. The old income tax policies have gone, the support for cannabis has been left discreetly to die, even their once outspoken distrust of privatisation has been left to grow dusty in a corner.

This is the problem for the next election and one of the reasons for the actual Tories swelling support.

I mean, why vote for a closet Tory when you can vote for the real thing? In particular when they are led by an honest to goodness 'toff'. *Cloth caps at the ready.....*

[Mr Incredible]

Lascivious
Inbred
Bisexual
Drunken
Excrement
Munching
Sodomite.

Or was that just Jeremy Thorpe?

[Wild Weasel]

..or Mark Oaten

[dakara]

Originally Posted by Mr Incredible

Lascivious
Inbred
Bisexual
Drunken
Excrement
Munching
Sodomite.

Or was that just Jeremy Thorpe?

Ah, cruel fellow.

You should be sorry for the poor bugger.

He was just unfortunate to get caught with his trousers down.

As to what the LibDems stand for, they are like the Greens, where the left foot and the right foot each choose a different road, and neither seem to be connected to the brain.

Paddy [Lawd] Ashdown, a self seeker, if ever there was one, is a poor example of the breed.

[dunks517]

The last time a Lib Dems stood anything for me was a Ploughman's salad and a nice pint of Old Speckled Hen in the Liberal Club in Whitehall!!

Hat, Coat, Taxiiiii!

[fencer90]

As someone mentioned Jeremy Thorpe , this is worth a watch. It might make more sense for anyone who is not familiar with the court case to have a read about it first.
This is one of the finest pieces of comedy ever written IMHO
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

[fencer90]

Sorry link isn't working this is the url



HTTP://UK.UTUBE.com / Watch?v=kyos-M48B8U

[la gran siete]

If you do a search in you tube for :Peter Cook's biased judge sketch you should get it .For someone reason it wont transfer

"a self confessed player of the pink oboe"

[la gran siete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUrnTTJQQYg

[Pecker]

Just a different slant on this, does anyone know what any of the main parties stands for anymore?

Labour don't want to re-nationalise anything, though there are things they could. The Conservatives don't want to privatise anything else, though there are things they could.

The differences in tax policy between the two are miniscule. The biggest debate over tax for the past year has been the 10p tax band. NL have got rid of it, and the tories say they wouldn't have brought it in in the first place. Big difference!

What Liberalism should mean is personal freedom - with the state not being involved in making laws to prevent people behaving in any way they want unless that behaviour hurts others.

It should also mean general freedom of trade between countries and between people within the same country. Taken to one level this may mean, for example, not taxing alcohol any more than anything else. Taken to an extreme it may mean not having any indirect taxation at all.

I'm sure this does not fit the Lib Dems any more than privatising/nationalising everything fits the tories or NL.

For me, I agree that we should move to a Local Council Tax (not a massive issue), and PR.

Steve W

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Just a different slant on this, does anyone know what any of the main parties stands for anymore?

Labour don't want to re-nationalise anything, though there are things they could. The Conservatives don't want to privatise anything else, though there are things they could.

The differences in tax policy between the two are miniscule.

What Liberalism should mean is personal freedom - with the state not being involved in making laws to prevent people behaving in any way they want unless that behaviour hurts others.

It should also mean general freedom of trade between countries and between people within the same country. Taken to one level this may mean, for example, not taxing alcohol any more than anything else. Taken to an extreme it may mean not having any indirect taxation at all.

I'm sure this does not fit the Lib Dems any more than privatising/nationalising everything fits the tories or NL.

For me, I agree that we should move to a Local Council Tax (not a massive issue), and PR.

Steve W

Not sure about that one Pecker?! To re-nationalize means to use massive amounts of tax payers money to return things that I would be happy to see it used to, to bring essential elements like the utilities back under govt control. However, I can safely say 90% of people would disagree - when the costing was put in front of them! On the other hand, a certain shadow health minister admitted that the Tories plans to expand private health care, and privatisation in education, are unchanged from the last govts days, and if anything, to quote, 'more radical than we've proposed before'.

You see these things slip under the radar with Saatchi and Saatchi, oops sorry, DC in charge.

As for the LibDems, who knows what their Education policy is?! It just seems to be, 'anything NL are proposing they are opposed to'. Which isn't much use to a voter.

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

...... in any case I am heartily sick of that interfering busy body Harriet Harman attempts at criminalizing punters..

Oh no, not more class war! wasn't banning hunting enough? Now they want to spoil the fun for all those poor Cambridge undergraduates, punting up and down the River Cam. Rotten so and so's

Originally Posted by la gran siete

.... means being open minded .....

unless you like a drink...

Originally Posted by Xusia Of Delos

Don't they shoot your dog if you don't vote for them?

Originally Posted by overkill

Most of them are too young for that one Xusia...........

Hmmm, I am of an age when I read the thread title and thought 'I remember that joke, it was quite funny at the time...'

Originally Posted by Pecker

Just a different slant on this, does anyone know what any of the main parties stands for anymore?


Steve W

Isn't this part of the malaise that is the problem? People, deep down, are starting to realise that there is very little difference between the party policies, so they actually see no way out and dis-enfranchised. You don't like the government but there is nothing you can do because the alternatives are pretty much the same. So what is the point of voting? More than that, where is your democratic right, when all the parties are effectively the same?
At least when Labour was left, the Tories were right and the Liberals occupied the ground 'in the middle', you felt as though there was a choice and your vote might help make a difference, but now.....?
Many people believe that they are powerless and cannot make a difference and when huge swathes of the population feel like that then the country is heading for trouble. When you feel you have no control over your own destiny, you get angry. And that to some extent is where the UK is now. But what to do?

FWIW, France is pretty much the same. Sarkozy is right wing, Mitterand was left wing but nobody really expects any difference and they are starting to get quite shirty about it. Every time Sarko tries to introduce change it gets shouted down and buried, progress is nil (just like under Mitterand) and France is essentially bankrupt.

Interesting times!

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by Pecker

Just a different slant on this, does anyone know what any of the main parties stands for anymore?

Labour = taking money from those who've got it, to give to those who'll vote for you.

[nogg]

Liberal Democrats are the PC Brigade!

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by Pecker

What Liberalism should mean is personal freedom - with the state not being involved in making laws to prevent people behaving in any way they want unless that behaviour hurts others.

surely thats libertarianism isnt ? I always thought liberalism was more about having an open mind, not being reactionary and being ready do ditch traditional ways of doing things or values if deemed appropriate fro eg accepting gay marriages ,cohabiters,modernising prisons etc

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

surely thats libertarianism isnt ?

It's both.

The Liberal Party grew out of the Whigs in the 1830s. They initially struggled for identity, as they'd pretty much sprouted out of the Whigs - so they'd not been formed firmly out of a new ideological movement, but from the move away from the Whigs old values to the new ones: primarily a move towards universal suffrage under the Reform Act of 1832.

In other words they had a common identity by association, but hadn't been formed deliberately because of it. Towards the end of the century a more consistent and solid definition of Liberalism came to the fore, mainly formed round a combination of progressive Whig values, which neatly coincided with the great liberal philosopher John Stuart Mill - often seen as the father of Liberalism. It was JSM who said:

"The sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

And this has been the basis for political liberalism ever since.

Hope that helps.

Steve W

[Pecker]

Originally Posted by overkill

Not sure about that one Pecker?! To re-nationalize means to use massive amounts of tax payers money to return things that I would be happy to see it used to, to bring essential elements like the utilities back under govt control. However, I can safely say 90% of people would disagree - when the costing was put in front of them! On the other hand, a certain shadow health minister admitted that the Tories plans to expand private health care, and privatisation in education, are unchanged from the last govts days, and if anything, to quote, 'more radical than we've proposed before'.

You see these things slip under the radar with Saatchi and Saatchi, oops sorry, DC in charge.

As for the LibDems, who knows what their Education policy is?! It just seems to be, 'anything NL are proposing they are opposed to'. Which isn't much use to a voter.

I agree about re-nationalisation, but where does that leave us?

What is the difference between a party that doesn't want re-nationalisation, and one that does but won't do it, for whatever reason?

Ultimately this is politics, and all the parties have slowly been moving towards a centre ground. It's become clear since the demise of Thatcher that the electorate will simply not vote for a party if the extreme right or the extreme left, or even a party half way towards either.

The parties have all surrendered their idology to the whim of the voter - which is, I suppose, not at all a bad thing in many ways.

Steve W

[Wild Weasel]

The Lib Dems want PR so much because they know they'd never be out of power. They'd always be in a coalition with either Labour or the Conservatives.

Anyway, there's no way the two main parties would allow it.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Pecker

I agree about re-nationalisation, but where does that leave us?

What is the difference between a party that doesn't want re-nationalisation, and one that does but won't do it, for whatever reason?

Ultimately this is politics, and all the parties have slowly been moving towards a centre ground. It's become clear since the demise of Thatcher that the electorate will simply not vote for a party if the extreme right or the extreme left, or even a party half way towards either.

The parties have all surrendered their idology to the whim of the voter - which is, I suppose, not at all a bad thing in many ways.

Steve W

That, of course is the problem. No-one will grasp that nettle even though it would alleviate the hardship of people all over the country. But since those people rarely vote............

No, they haven't moved to the centre, but to the right of centre. I wouldn't say either the govt or the current Tory party are centerist. One has been found out on that score, the other just relies on govt unpopularity and spin to stop people finding out.

On the latter, I can't think of anything more disastrous! Basically because the voter (by which I don't mean 'everyone') is influenced by a barrage of things that has made them that way, things that may be misconceived or worse, totally untrue.

Parties should be offering some radical ideas, things that people can be inspired by, not just populist BS that is easy for the 'average' DM/Sun reader to swallow whole.

Sadly, I haven't been inspired by a political leader, or a political message in a very long time.