[evilgenius]

Just watched this. By god Im SOOOO glad I don't live in the US. I`m actually glad Im in the UK and even France has a stellar Health care system. Heck even CUBA has a better one than the US.

I swear, corporate America is evil.

[SimonH]

Originally Posted by evilgenius

Heck even CUBA has a better one than the US.

I swear, corporate America is evil.

Shussh, don't tell everybody, Cuba is evil.

[CooperUK]

Had me in tears at the end when they went to Cuba with the 9/11 rescue workers.

But I was feeling very emotional that day

[mrapbp]

Funny that our healthcare system sucks (underfunded etc etc) yet it is way ahead of places like the US.

Some of the horror stories from the US were just inreal!! Same with everything though, privatise it and it goes to ****!! Just look at the trains.........

[eric pisch]

America is a fantastic place to live with 2 caveats

1) you need a reasonable income, some money in the bank for a rainy day

2) you need health insurance


If you do get ill and have insurance / money you will get the best health care there is, the hospitals are spotless, full of the latest kit, and have many staff per patient. It costs a fortune and ideally you dont want to get ill.

Moore's reporting on the NHS is biased and twisted in the extreme, my wife is a senior manager in a very large trust (multi billion turn over) and even with the huge amounts of extra money neu labor have pumped into it the NHS is rapidly heading for bankruptcy. The service can be bloody awe full as well, she laughed through the film, pointing out the errors, twisted facts, facts out of context and some blatently wrong facts.

[mrapbp]

The thing that worried me was the stories of the insurance company doing anything they could to get out of paying up (ethical or not) and leaving people with crippling bills.

Its all about the money not the actual provision of healthcare.

Originally Posted by eric pisch

If you do get ill and have insurance / money you will get the best health care there is, the hospitals are spotless, full of the latest kit, and have many staff per patient. It costs a fortune and ideally you dont want to get ill.

[eric pisch]

Originally Posted by mrapbp

The thing that worried me was the stories of the insurance company doing anything they could to get out of paying up (ethical or not) and leaving people with crippling bills.

Its all about the money not the actual provision of healthcare.

pretty much sums up the US, its all about the dollar, if you have dollars you will be laughing

as for the insurance, its the same here with house and car insurance, most play fair but theres allways those on the fringe who look for an out (thats how they can offer low premiums), normally the cheapest who of course the poorest people choose.

My brother in law and sister both emigrated to the US a few years back (at different times) and neither of them would come back to the UK for anything, there schools are alot better than ours as well now.

[Kebabhead]

Originally Posted by mrapbp

Funny that our healthcare system sucks (underfunded etc etc)

So you're saying £40 billion isn't enough?

Reason why our healthsystem sucks ain't the money it's the ridiculous levels of beaurocracy (sp) imposed by the Government and it's damn target setting

[mrapbp]

I'm not 'saying' anything of the sort, and your probably right?

All I know is that my Mrs works herself to death for not much money and isnt able to give the kind of care she would like. Its her choice and she loves it but is sometimes hard to watch from the sidelines.

Originally Posted by Kebabhead

So you're saying £40 billion isn't enough?

Reason why our healthsystem sucks ain't the money it's the ridiculous levels of beaurocracy (sp) imposed by the Government and it's damn target setting

[CrossyX]

I seen this a while ago and yes it is bad but Moore will have researched and found the worse cases possible. Micheal Moore is a idiot. The small amount of credibility he had went away when he made Fahrenheit 9/11.

[evilgenius]

I disagree. Why shouldnt he find the worst case scenarios? I have also read many cases of similar ilk and my father who lives in the US has also told me of many similar cases also.

I doubt very much this is just isolated cases, if it was there wouldnt be making progess towards investigating a universal healtcare system. One part of the film really sank home.

In the US, Gps are given bonuses for not giving medical treatment and in here in the UK GPs are given bonuses for making peeps better. This is how it should be.

We should be proud of what we have and not complain.

[JonnyTester]

Originally Posted by CrossyX

Micheal Moore is a idiot. The small amount of credibility he had went away when he made Fahrenheit 9/11.

First off, why is he an "idiot"? You'll get more truth out of him than you'll get from every politician in the world put together. Secondly, what was so flawed about Farenheit 9/11 that his "credibility went away"? Or was it just that he told the truth (again) and you didn't like it?

[Wild Weasel]

"Truth" meaning "he affirms my own beliefs and prejudices"?

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by JonnyTester

First off, why is he an "idiot"? You'll get more truth out of him than you'll get from every politician in the world put together. Secondly, what was so flawed about Farenheit 9/11 that his "credibility went away"? Or was it just that he told the truth (again) and you didn't like it?

59 Deceits in Farenheit 911.

http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fift...Election_Night

[CrossyX]

Originally Posted by JonnyTester

First off, why is he an "idiot"? You'll get more truth out of him than you'll get from every politician in the world put together. Secondly, what was so flawed about Farenheit 9/11 that his "credibility went away"? Or was it just that he told the truth (again) and you didn't like it?

Where did i say i would get the truth out of politicians and goverments? They are as corrupt as anyone and please dont try and patronize me with "i dont like the truth" comments, i am more than capable of having my own views and opinions. That does not take away the fact the Moore twists ever story and plays on peoples emotions as he did in 911, asking a just dead soldier parents what did they think of the war etc and then encouraging them to go out protesting. He manipulates everything to his own views and opinions to make himself and his documentarys as controversial as possible so he can get himself in the lime light and spread his hate of the USA.

[Steven]

Originally Posted by CrossyX

Where did i say i would get the truth out of politicians and goverments? They are as corrupt as anyone and please dont try and patronize me with "i dont like the truth" comments, i am more than capable of having my own views and opinions. That does not take away the fact the Moore twists ever story and plays on peoples emotions as he did in 911, asking a just dead soldier parents what did they think of the war etc and then encouraging them to go out protesting. He manipulates everything to his own views and opinions to make himself and his documentarys as controversial as possible so he can get himself in the lime light and spread his hate of the USA.

You could argue he used the mother in 9/11 to further his own point... but what really is there to twist about the Iraq war? We are in 2008 and universal opinion is that as far as mistakes go...

[krish]

and Bush did steal the 2000 Presidential Election, thats not really up for debate anymore

[evilgenius]

"spread his hate of the USA"

Nah the US does that job quite well on their own.

Micheal Moore ROCKS!

[RMCF]

I enjoyed the film, but I enjoy all his films.

I know you have to take all he says with a pinch of salt as he will only tell HIS side of the story.

Sicko did point out how badly off many people are in the US who can't afford decent health insurance, btu I think we are all heading the way of private health in UK/Ireland anyway as the NHS is not great.

If you were living in the US watching Sicko you'd almost believe that the NHS was totally free, as Moore tries to portray this image. Its been a while since I seen it, but I don't think he mentioned NI contributions once in it, or incredibly long waiting lists.

[Sonic67]

Might be too much to ask but any chance Michael Moore could compare the hospital treatment for war veterans in America with the same here? BBC2 did it recently (‘Power to the People’ documentary ‘The Battle of Trafalgar Square’ ) but it didn't get so much coverage.

http://www.theabandonedsoldier.com/

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by Kebabhead

So you're saying £40 billion isn't enough?

Reason why our healthsystem sucks ain't the money it's the ridiculous levels of beaurocracy (sp) imposed by the Government and it's damn target setting

The government now spends £90 billion on the NHS, per year (I think it's higher than this actually now). Ten years ago it cost £30 billion per year. So it's three times more expensive (two if adjusted for, say, a 5% inflation rate).

Is it three times as good? Twice as good?

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by CrossyX

I seen this a while ago and yes it is bad but Moore will have researched and found the worse cases possible. Micheal Moore is a idiot. The small amount of credibility he had went away when he made Fahrenheit 9/11.

Quite agree.

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by evilgenius

I disagree. Why shouldnt he find the worst case scenarios?

The worst case scenarios of the system he criticises, and the best case scenarios of the system he favours?

[damo_in_sale]

Originally Posted by RMCF

If you were living in the US watching Sicko you'd almost believe that the NHS was totally free, as Moore tries to portray this image. Its been a while since I seen it, but I don't think he mentioned NI contributions once in it, or incredibly long waiting lists.

Do you think that your NI contributions are what pays for the NHS?

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

The government now spends £90 billion on the NHS, per year (I think it's higher than this actually now). Ten years ago it cost £30 billion per year. So it's three times more expensive (two if adjusted for, say, a 5% inflation rate).

Is it three times as good? Twice as good?

This came up on the BBC news. Spending on the health service has increased by 29%. Treatment increased by 19%.

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by krish

and Bush did steal the 2000 Presidential Election, thats not really up for debate anymore

What Moore doesn’t show is that a six-month study in 2001 by news organizations including The New York Times, the Washington Post and CNN found just the opposite. Even if the Supreme Court had not stopped a statewide recount, or if a more limited recount of four heavily Democratic counties had taken place, Bush still would have won Florida and the election.

A study by a newspaper consortium including the Miami Herald and USA Today disproves Fahrenheit's claim that Gore won under any scenario. As USA Today summarized, on May 11, 2001:

"Who would have won if Al Gore had gotten manual counts he requested in four counties? Answer: George W. Bush."

"Who would have won if the U.S. Supreme Court had not stopped the hand recount of undervotes, which are ballots that registered no machine-readable vote for president? Answer: Bush, under three of four standards."

"Who would have won if all disputed ballots — including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president — had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the two most widely used standards; Gore, under the two least used."

[pixelpixel]

wow you have only watched Sicko now ?

Not a bad doc, his books are good also. His early stuff is far better. TV nation was excellent.

'SiCKO' Factual Backup

:OT: Want something else to watch ? See this

[krish]

Following the election, recounts conducted by various United States news media organizations indicated that Bush would have won if certain recounting methods had been used (including the one favored by Gore at the time of the Supreme Court decision) but that Gore would have won had a full state-wide recount been conducted.
- www.amstat.org/misc/PresidentialElectionBallots.pdf (The American Statistitian, February 2003, Vol. 57, No.1)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago, sponsored by a consortium of major U.S. news organizations, conducted a Florida Ballot Project comprehensive review of all ballots uncounted (by machine) in the Florida 2000 presidential election, both undervotes and overvotes, with the main research aim being to report how different ballot layouts correlate with voter mistakes.

The media companies involved were:

Associated Press
The New York Times
The Wall Street Journal
CNN
St. Petersburg Times
The Palm Beach Post
The Washington Post
Tribune Company
Los Angeles Times
Chicago Tribune
Orlando Sentinel
The Baltimore Sun

Although the NORC study was not primarily intended as a determination of which candidate "really won", analysis of the results, given the hand counting of machine-uncountable ballots due to various types of voter error, indicated that they would lead to differing results, reported in the newspapers which funded the recount, such as The Miami Herald or the Washington Post.

The media reported the results of the study during the week after November 12, 2001. The results of the study showed that had the limited county by county recounts requested by the Gore team been completed, Bush would still have been the winner of the election. The recount also showed that had there been a full statewide recount of all counties, Al Gore would have received more votes than Bush. However, neither campaign requested such a total statewide recount, and it was never formally carried out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As Secretary of State for the State of Florida, Katherine Harris was a central figure in the contested 2000 US presidential election in Florida. There were allegations of conflicts of interest and partisan and unethical behavior during the 2000 campaign. Harris had been named as Bush's Florida campaign co-chair the year before.

Harris certified that the Republican candidate, then-Texas Governor George W. Bush, had defeated the Democratic candidate, then-Vice President Al Gore, in the popular vote of Florida and thus certified the Republican slate of electors. Her ruling was challenged and overturned on appeal by Florida's Supreme Court; this decision, however, was itself reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore. That Court ruled (5-4) that Gore's request to extend Florida's statutory deadline for ballot re-counts had no merit because no Florida law at the time provided for that option. This ruling nullified the state court's decision, upholding Harris' certification. The decision foreclosed any further court challenges by Gore and resulted in Bush's margin of victory in Florida being officially tallied at 537 votes. Therefore, Florida's electoral votes — and the Presidency — went to Bush.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw I don't base my views on the 2000 US Presidential Election on Michael Moore's reporting, but on the more thorough and less sensational investigative journalism and documentaries of Greg Palast, Cliff Schecter, and Robert Greenwald amongst others .... and none of the post-election studies by various US news media organisations accounted for Florida's voter purge which disenfranchised many non-felon democrat voters.

[eric pisch]

Originally Posted by Kebabhead

So you're saying £40 billion isn't enough?

Reason why our healthsystem sucks ain't the money it's the ridiculous levels of beaurocracy (sp) imposed by the Government and it's damn target setting

common myth, i dont have the exact figures to hand for my wifes trust but i have read them and to the best of my memory 30% of there budget money goes to people maximising what they can get out of the system for free such as the professionally unemployed claiming everything like nappies and headache tablets, immigrants who have come over for free treatment etc, 10-15% goes dealing with drunks and fights, a drug addict costs £2000 a week to keep and there's an awe full lot of them.

[SimonH]

Originally Posted by damo_in_sale

The worst case scenarios of the system he criticises, and the best case scenarios of the system he favours?

Even if he took the middle ground on both scenarios it would show the horrendous reality of being poor and getting healthcare in the States.

People don't have a clue how lucky they are in this country, especially the constant moaners about the NHS.