[Chrisoldinho]

As per the post title, what do you think?

I'm sure a lot of you may of heard that Corporal Sarah Bryant died serving on the front line in Afghanistan.

The question here is, should women be allowed on the front line?

Chris.

[Ultima]

If they want to and are skilled/trained to do it then why not??

[mjn]

They wanted equal opportunities, they got them.

[Sonic67]

They aren't. They can not serve in 'the teeth arms'. The problem is Afghanistan doesn't have a nice front line.

Also a woman serving on a navy ship won't be put to port first when the shooting starts either.

You would need to ask should women be in the forces at all.

[Chrisoldinho]

Should I put a Poll on this?

1. Yes
2. No

Is that all?

[Sonic67]

Aside from anything else there's another issue.

During the Hajj we had many people coming to use the airport at Basrah to fly to Saudi. They all needed to be searched. Can you imagine male kuffār searching female muslims? So we had to have female soldiers for that.

[CooperUK]

Equality means equal treatment - send women to the front lines.

Equality should mean taking the bad with the good.

[Sals]

If a woman chooses to join the forces and can prove herself as equally as capable as a man then she should be treated as such if thats what she wants! There aren't many woman out there who have the strength and stamina of a man. FACT! But there are some so fair play to them! It wouldn't be for me but I take my hat of to those who can! Thats said there are many things I can outdo a man at any day

[Kebabhead]

What was that terrible film with Demi Moore in it

Ah yes G.I Jane

Nuff said

[gazbarber]

The arument used is that in front lines women can't keep up with men (stamana and strength ect) and hold them back, how true it is in reality I'm not sure, but I can't see a reason why not.

So, Yes.

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by Sals

There aren't many woman out there who have the strength and stamina of a man. FACT! But there are some so fair play to them!

Women have easier fitness tests in the army than the men.

For instance one of the fitness tests is a 2.4km run on level ground and in training shoes, which must be completed in under 10.5 minutes for those male and aged under 30. For women the requirement for the 2.4km run is 13 minutes.

[Sonic67]

There's another issue. During an attack soldiers press on to fight the enemy and casualties are dealt with after the enemy has been neutralised. There's nothing to stop casualties applying first aid to themself in the meantime.

However, when women are shot men tend to abandon the attack to treat the woman. This has been found to result in even higher casualties but it tends to be an instinct for men to be protective of women when they wouldn't be for other men.

[Chrisoldinho]

I wonder how safe it is to have 30 men starved of women for several weeks/months working on the front line with women? Surely it must make the mind wonder....Also, if a women was held captive by "The Enemy" I would be extremely concerned about their wellbeing and the possibility of being raped.

[Sonic67]

Originally Posted by Chrisoldinho

I wonder how safe it is to have 30 men starved of women for several weeks/months working on the front line with women? Surely it must make the mind wonder....

shouldn't be a problem for a disciplined army. Men are based in Iraq, the balkans, Afghanistan and other places with women for months and it isn't really an issue. Most guys will be in their corrimecs pulling themselves around the room.

Originally Posted by Chrisoldinho

Also, if a women was held captive by "The Enemy" I would be extremely concerned about their wellbeing and the possibility of being raped.

Actually men can be raped as well...

[mrtbag]

If they want to, and can, without having a negative effect on the mission in hand, I don't see an issue.

[OldAndSenile]

No matter how much people want it to be true, men and women aren't the same... There are some jobs more suited to men, and others more suited to women - that's just the nature of the differences between the sexes.

I don't believe women should be on the front line, but that's purely a personal view - if women choose to join the army with that intention then that's their choice. If that choice puts our army at a disadvantage compared to the enemy, however, that's a very different matter!

However, can you image if (God forbid) conscription was ever re-introduced - would women accept being conscripted into the army? I doubt it! The whole "equality" thing only seems to apply when it's convenient - does anyone know any female bin men or oil rig workers?

[Chrisoldinho]

Originally Posted by OldAndSenile

No matter how much people want it to be true, men and women aren't the same... There are some jobs more suited to men, and others more suited to women - that's just the nature of the differences between the sexes.

I don't believe women should be on the front line, but that's purely a personal view - if women choose to join the army with that intention then that's their choice. If that choice puts our army at a disadvantage compared to the enemy, however, that's a very different matter!

However, can you image if (God forbid) conscription was ever re-introduced - would women accept being conscripted into the army? I doubt it! The whole "equality" thing only seems to apply when it's convenient - does anyone know any female bin men or oil rig workers?

Good post...I agree with a lot of the statements in there at the risk of sounding sexist

I think women could get conscripted, but with the majority doing "support" work...

[Bat-man]

Originally Posted by OldAndSenile

...does anyone know any female bin men or oil rig workers?

I don't know of any female bin men but there are bin women where I live (Lincoln).

[Noggin1980]

Originally Posted by OldAndSenile

However, can you image if (God forbid) conscription was ever re-introduced - would women accept being conscripted into the army? I doubt it! The whole "equality" thing only seems to apply when it's convenient - does anyone know any female bin men or oil rig workers?

No I wouldn't think women would accept being conscripted but then men wouldn't accept it either.

Women should be allowed on the front line though I think they should face the exact same tests and training as men, your sex is irrelevent if you are physically and mentally capable.

If men don't do what they are trained to do because women are around then the issue is completly and totally with the men and they should be the ones to adapt.

Also, if a women was held captive by "The Enemy" I would be extremely concerned about their wellbeing and the possibility of being raped.

There are more serious concerns to any soldier captured in the current climate male or female than rape. I'd be extreamly concerned for the wellbeing of anyone taken captive especially with the chance you can come home without your head

[krish]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7463636.stm

Women in the British armed forces

By Victoria Bone
BBC News
Thursday, 19 June 2008


The death of Cpl Sarah Bryant in Afghanistan has brought the subject of women in the military to the fore.

In total, there are 187,060 members of the British armed forces, and 9.4% of them - some 17,620 - are female.

Of those women, 3,760 are officers.

The Ministry of Defence describes the contribution of all women as "essential", and says recent awards of medals for gallantry to women during operational deployments show they are serving in more demanding circumstances than ever before.

The MoD is unable to say exactly how many women are currently serving in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But some reports suggest about a fifth of the 8,000 service personnel in Afghanistan are female, even though they make up just a tenth of total military numbers.

An MoD spokesman said women do take on many key - and crucially, frontline - roles.

"Women can be employed anywhere and are involved in every operation currently going on," a spokesman said.

"What we often see is a misconception that women can't do frontline roles. They can.

"What they can't do, and it's a military phrase, is any specialisation where 'the primary duty is to close with or kill the enemy'.

"That effectively means close combat, hand-to-hand even, or other very close forms of fighting."


Some exclusions

Across the forces, the frontline roles women do take on are many and varied.

Some work in policing, as medical and media staff, or as interpreters.

Other are involved in Civil-Military Co-operation, providing liaison between the armed forces and civilian agencies, like charities, working in theatre.

Women are excluded from joining the Royal Marines General Service as Commandos, and cannot take on combat roles in the Household Cavalry, Royal Armoured Corps, Infantry and the Royal Air Force Regiment.

They can still join these units, but must play administrative and support roles.

However, the nature of modern warfare means that in Afghanistan the front line effectively starts just outside base camp.

The BBC's defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt said the Taleban - and insurgents in Iraq before them - were increasingly using suicide bombs and roadside devices rather than engaging in battlefield combat.

This inevitably puts troops - women among them - in greater danger every day, regardless of their specific role or proximity to any traditional front line.


Cultural reasons

Overall, the RAF offers the most opportunities to women, with 96% of all jobs open to them.

The figures are lower for the other forces. In the Royal Navy, 71% of jobs are open to both genders and in the Army it is 67%.

In the RAF, 14.7% of officers are female, compared to 9.4% in the Navy and 11.3% in the Army.

The MoD said: "The only time women might not serve would be if there was a conflict in a country like Saudi Arabia for reasons of cultural sensitivity."

Female military personnel are entitled to 52 weeks maternity leave, 39 of them paid, and they are not considered for deployment within six months of giving birth, unless they volunteer.

Where both parents in a family are in the military, all efforts are made not to deploy them at the same time.

[Miss Chief]

Could one also say this argument and discussion reduces the contribution and sacrifice that male troops have made in the services as over 100 of them have died in Afghanistan yet when a woman dies it's big news and discussions like this are probably popping up on many other discussion boards?

Just a thought.

[krish]

Originally Posted by Skytech

Could one also say this argument and discussion reduces the contribution and sacrifice that male troops have made ...

I don't think so at all, if anything I think this discussion does a disservice to all women who've made that sacrifice by questioning the position of women in the frontline of modern warfare.

[mrapbp]

Bottom line if men and women can perform in exactly the same way for a given job/task then no problem. If allowances need to be made then no.

I have a friend in the fire service and his view is if a woman can lift a 15st man out of a burning building building then he has no issue with it. If she cant then she has no place being there.

As someone pointed out there are fundamental differences between men and women which I am sure both sexes understand and are pretty happy with actually. In my work world there is way less of a difference but in some jobs those differences make it almost impossible for a woman to do what is necessary to get the job done and make sure that people dont get hurt.

Dont dilute a job just so we can say that we have done the 'right' thing. Do it or dont!!!

[shodan]

Originally Posted by mrapbp

Bottom line if men and women can perform in exactly the same way for a given job/task then no problem. If allowances need to be made then no.

I have a friend in the fire service and his view is if a woman can lift a 15st man out of a burning building building then he has no issue with it. If she cant then she has no place being there.

I hope he extends that very same philosophy to men who are unable to lift a 15st man out of a burning building! And of course I presume your friend can as well otherwise he'll have to look for a new job.

So in response to the thread title, I ask, Why shouldn't they?

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by shodan

I hope he extends that very same philosophy to men who are unable to lift a 25st man out of a burning building! And of course I presume your friend can as well otherwise he'll have to look for a new job.

So in response to the thread title, I ask, Why shouldn't they?

Regarding firefighters, if they meet the requirements in a test that has not been adjusted for gender, then fine.

The average UK male is around 12.5 St by the way.

[mrapbp]

Dont be silly!

There probably arent many people that can lift a 25st man out of anywhere.

The point is can a woman lift anyone out of a burning building? If not then are they fit do do that job?

Are you saying to me that if the standard pre requisite is that someone should be able to lift say a 15st person (not sure what it is but lets say that 15st is a fairly heavy person) and there is a person (regardless of gender) that cannot do that then yes they should look for a new job.

And keep your stupid comments to yourself about 'if he cant..........'. My mate does a job that not many people do/would want to do for very little money. Does your job involve having to scrape dead children off of motorways???

Originally Posted by shodan

I hope he extends that very same philosophy to men who are unable to lift a 25st man out of a burning building! And of course I presume your friend can as well otherwise he'll have to look for a new job.

So in response to the thread title, I ask, Why shouldn't they?

[Wild Weasel]

The idea of a 'front line' is a bit of an outdated concept. The whole point of an insurgency war like Iraq & Afghanistan is that the whole country becomes a battle zone.

Originally Posted by Sonic67

Actually men can be raped as well...

The Turks were into that. Lawrence of Arabia being a notable example.

[gazbarber]

Originally Posted by mrapbp

Dont be silly!
My mate does a job that not many people do/would want to do for very little money. Does your job involve having to scrape dead children off of motorways???

With all due respect what the hell has that got to do with gender?

[mrapbp]

Not sure I suggested it did............

What I was trying to say was that my mate (despite his deeply sexist attitude.......) has every right to do his job even if he cant lift a 25st man and has every right to think a woman shouldnt do his job if he believes that woman would put him or his men in danger (according to personal experience etc).

The comment was aimed at someone making a stupid comment when the fireman that I know do a hateful job that not many people would do.

Originally Posted by gazbarber

With all due respect what the hell has that got to do with gender?

[gazbarber]

Originally Posted by mrapbp

Not sure I suggested it did............

What I was trying to say was that my mate (despite his deeply sexist attitude.......) has every right to do his job even if he cant lift a 25st man and has every right to think a woman shouldnt do his job if he believes that woman would put him or his men in danger (according to personal experience etc).

The comment was aimed at someone making a stupid comment when the fireman that I know do a hateful job that not many people would do.

Although you may not have ment it literaly, what your mates thinks a woman can do and what they can actualy do may be different, sure there needs to be equality of testing so that if a particualr woman cannot perform the minimum necessary standards they shouldn't be considered.
Neither should someone be so biased to a assume every member of a certain group is exactly the same, if 1 out of a million women can do the job then that 1 woman should be alowed to regardless of beliefs or fealings.