[mad_matt]

With the chaos that ensued at the grand opening of T5 yesterday and the on going problems today coupled with a new 72 hour strike announced by Tube workers today is our transport infrastructure the laughing stock of the rest of the industrialised nations?

Discuss?

[Ed Selley]

With the possible exception of France- yes. Uniquely however we have a heady combination of private sector incompitance and union bolshiness.

[krish]

T5 is a private sector joke
- the comedians being those privatised sheep BA BAA

[gorge]

Overall Value-For-Money it is probably the worst in the world!

[johntheexpat]

Originally Posted by mad_matt

With the chaos that ensued at the grand opening of T5 yesterday and the on going problems today coupled with a new 72 hour strike announced by Tube workers today is our transport infrastructure the laughing stock of the rest of the industrialised nations?

Discuss?

Noooo, it's just the unions being environmentally friendly and helping to reduce everyone's carbon footprint.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by mad_matt

With the chaos that ensued at the grand opening of T5 yesterday and the on going problems today coupled with a new 72 hour strike announced by Tube workers today is our transport infrastructure the laughing stock of the rest of the industrialised nations?

Discuss?

How does T5 compare with other similar projects like Denver, Kuala Lumpur or the new Hong Kong airport? About the same or better will probably be the answer.

And how does London Underground compare with similar systems abroad? Oh, no, there aren't any similar systems anywhere in the world. And the strike hasn't happened yet.

[Harj]

Originally Posted by Ed Selley

With the possible exception of France- yes. Uniquely however we have a heady combination of private sector incompitance and union bolshiness.

France & Spain ave introduced high speed trains that make ours look embarrasing, and the prices are ridiculosly low, yes we are an embarresment and rip off. I can compare the underground system of Singapore to ours to see how far we our behind, in terms of technology, fare prices and friendliness

[funkyspider]

Originally Posted by andykn

How does T5 compare with other similar projects like Denver, Kuala Lumpur or the new Hong Kong airport? About the same or better will probably be the answer.

And how does London Underground compare with similar systems abroad? Oh, no, there aren't any similar systems anywhere in the world. And the strike hasn't happened yet.

I think you may be getting a little confused...

Are you referring to the new Beijing airport ?
If so you can get a brief summary of information here which should help you get things into perspective when comparing to T5
http://www.timeintransit.com/news/be...port-building/

and pleanty more detail elsewhere if you look
"The new terminal, which cost an estimated $3.75 billion to construct, occupies 14 million square feet. The building was constructed at lightning speed; it took four years and 50,000 workers.

Compare that to London Heathrow's Terminal 5, set to open later this month. Terminal 5 took nearly 20 years to build and cost at least twice as much as the one in the Chinese capital. "



How can you justify the statement that there aren't any similar systems to the London underground abroad. What are you using as a comparison there against Tokyo Subway, New York Underground etc.

[Jenn]

Originally Posted by Ed Selley

With the possible exception of France- yes.

How is France worse when trains for example are cheaper, more are on time and cover bigger distances in modern faster trains?
Strikes? yes there are some but it seems to me that they are better managed than here too.

As for the underground... Well I've tried the one in Paris, Lille and Vienna and they're all at least as good if not better than London.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by Jenn

How is France worse when trains for example are cheaper, more are on time and cover bigger distances in modern faster trains?

Unquestionably yes but

Originally Posted by Jenn

Strikes? yes there are some but it seems to me that they are better managed than here too.

Trust me- with synchronised driver/staff/signalmen and potential sympathetic silliness from dock staff, air traffic control and whoever else feels like waving the red flag, the French industrial action is the sort of thing Bob Crow would kill for.

[lubo]

the tube strike won't be that bad it's only TSSA that are striking for those three days.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by Harj

France & Spain ave introduced high speed trains that make ours look embarrasing, and the prices are ridiculosly low, yes we are an embarresment and rip off.

Not strictly comparable. Both Spain and France have major population centres distributed around their extremeties and more centred capitals. In the UK most of the population live in one corner and very few in the top half at all. A high speed line from Glasgow to Thurso would not be mcu benefit for passengers or freight.

I can compare the underground system of Singapore to ours to see how far we our behind, in terms of technology, fare prices and friendliness

They are not comparable. The London tube network would not even fit on to Singapore island. It's like comparing LU with my train set.

[JohnG]

Yes it's all a joke. Our buses, trains and roads are all overpriced, overcrowded and an embarrasment when compared to most countries. Public transport is an absolute joke once you get out of London.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by funkyspider

I think you may be getting a little confused...

No. They were the examples quoted by the news as comparisons of how major new airport constructions had gone wrong at launch.

Are you referring to the new Beijing airport ?
If so you can get a brief summary of information here which should help you get things into perspective when comparing to T5
http://www.timeintransit.com/news/be...port-building/

and pleanty more detail elsewhere if you look
"The new terminal, which cost an estimated $3.75 billion to construct, occupies 14 million square feet. The building was constructed at lightning speed; it took four years and 50,000 workers.

Compare that to London Heathrow's Terminal 5, set to open later this month. Terminal 5 took nearly 20 years to build and cost at least twice as much as the one in the Chinese capital. "

T5 construction did not begin 20 years ago. Only costing twice as much in a coutry where the cost of living must nbe many times that of China is not much of a criticism. And how many of those 50,000 workers survived the construction?

How can you justify the statement that there aren't any similar systems to the London underground abroad. What are you using as a comparison there against Tokyo Subway, New York Underground etc.

I'm not too familiar with the Tokyo subway, but it doesn't seem much cheaper than London and seems to cover a much smaller area. The New York one is nothing like London; I'm fairly sure it has no deep tube lines.

[Reepicheep]

Having visited Holland a number of times and having used their trains and trams it makes our over-priced, disjointed, and under-invested public transport system look third world (although that's probably an insult to the third world as they probably have better public transport!).

[Epicurus]

Having been to Hong Kong several years ago and seen the wonderful transport system we built over there, I never could understand why we couldn't do the same here. Especially as Hong Kong is far more crowded than, say, London.

Pretty much everywhere in Western Europe has better transport systems too. I've lived in both France and Austria and trains and buses there are cleaner, more comfortable, faster and more reliable; not to mention cheaper.

At the same time we seem to want to ultra penalise people for having cars.

In America public transport is poor, but at least they see cars as an acceptable alternative!

[JohnG]

We used public transport all the time in Portugal during Euro 2004 and it was clean, cheap, safe and well coordinated - everything that it isn't in this country.

[Harj]

Originally Posted by andykn

Not strictly comparable. Both Spain and France have major population centres distributed around their extremeties and more centred capitals. In the UK most of the population live in one corner and very few in the top half at all. A high speed line from Glasgow to Thurso would not be mcu benefit for passengers or freight.

They are not comparable. The London tube network would not even fit on to Singapore island. It's like comparing LU with my train set.

I am comparing the Singapore underground to LU in terms of price, technology and cleanliness, these can be easily applied to the LU.

[andykn]

Originally Posted by Harj

I am comparing the Singapore underground to LU in terms of price, technology and cleanliness, these can be easily applied to the LU.

No they can't. Deep tube lines are far more difficult to clean, the Tube is many times older than Singapore's, 80 year old escalators need to be replaced now on the tube, not yet on the Singapore system, and the price you pay on the tube gats you many miles further to many more stations on more lines and has to carry more people.

There is no comparison between the two.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by andykn

No they can't. Deep tube lines are far more difficult to clean, the Tube is many times older than Singapore's, 80 year old escalators need to be replaced now on the tube, not yet on the Singapore system, and the price you pay on the tube gats you many miles further to many more stations on more lines and has to carry more people.

There is no comparison between the two.

Neither does there need to be. Of rather more relevance is whether the other city Tube/Subway/Metro's are perpetually held to ransom by some of the most spoiled and bad tempered unions left in business.

Once again I see the RMT is striking for "my safety". I'd be thrilled if I believed that any member of staff would lift a finger for me in my defence- especially at the zone 5 station I use. Two regular members of staff there are actually less useful than a plastic helpstation (which itself is saying something) and another seems unable to count their own heads. I would be amazed if in the event of an emergency if they did anything other than pull curtain down and wait until the problem went away.

[PoochJD]

Hi,

There's only one answer to the original question, and that's a large and unresounding "Yes, it's the pits!".

In most parts of Europe, they have clean public transport, that turns-up and departs when it says it will on the timetables; with reasonable fares, and on many services, conductors and/or customer service staff who actually know what they are doing, and can help you out.

In Britain, we seem to have the public transport from the 17th Century! With the exception of the London Underground, (for which I have a fondness for, and isn't as bad as it could be, though it should be better than it is), almost every other form of public service transportation in Britain, should be reinvested in heavily, otherwise we will become the laughing stock of the world. And deservedly so!


Pooch

[lubo]

Originally Posted by Ed Selley

Once again I see the RMT is striking for "my safety". I'd be thrilled if I believed that any member of staff would lift a finger for me in my defence- especially at the zone 5 station I use..

Actually this strike is by TSSA. R.M.T were only balloted last week and it has not been decided yet what action we will take.
Do you actually know what the strike is over?
The Evening Standard, one of the most right wing pieces of crap you could read, actually agrees with the reasons for the strike but not the strike action.
If you need me to tell you what the strike is about I will.
But frankly it is for your safety and not for our benefit.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by lubo

Actually this strike is by TSSA. R.M.T were only balloted last week and it has not been decided yet what action we will take.
Do you actually know what the strike is over?
The Evening Standard, one of the most right wing pieces of crap you could read, actually agrees with the reasons for the strike but not the strike action.
If you need me to tell you what the strike is about I will.
But frankly it is for your safety and not for our benefit.

I'm fine thanks.

From the relentless misery of your own website we have;

Originally Posted by angsty socialists

RMT is in dispute with London Underground over a raft of staff and safety issues that amount to an attack on safety standards and the casualisation of safety critical work

Some 7,500 Tube workers - members of RMT and TSSA - are to be balloted over the issue.

Both unions have told LUL that ticket-office closures, de-staffing, lone working, introduction of 'mobile supervisors', use of agency and security staff and other disputed policies amount to an unacceptable attack on safety standards and the casualisation of safety-critical work

LUL has a hit-list of 130 stations where changes to hours are planned, on top of 39 ticket offices earmarked for complete closure, 32 scheduled to lose some or all weekend opening, 16 to lose afternoon peak services and 13 facing other major hours reductions.

And as I said previously it makes no difference to me whatsoever. There are (as far as I can tell) two to three members of staff present at Canons Park off peak. They can't be seen, talked to and in the three years I've used the station have proffered no assistance to anyone. I have no idea what safety they provide and on the basis of what I have seen I have no faith in their ability to do anything safety related. The machines supply the vast majority of tickets at the station (I've long since given up on trying to renew my annual card there- I've been told before "this is too complicated for this station.").

The major use of "agency workers" is the new terminal 5 station and london overground as far as I can tell. Due to the fact that your organisation will strike over the wrong filling in your conference sandwiches I can fully understand why companies might be seeking more reliable employees. The "mobile supervisors" sound like an excellent idea- they might have a better chance of finding your colleagues stockpiling alcohol which seems like a good idea to me as well.

I don't read the Standard- don't read any papers for that matter. I merely have suffered at the hands of your vicious, slow witted, reactionary union too many times. For every excellent member of Tube staff I meet, there are five more who I have little or no faith in at all.

[lubo]

Agency workers are being used at Gunnersbury which is overland and tube and only five stops to Earl's Court.
Agency workers in LU uniforms that have not received adequate training.Would I trust them how to turn off traction current? NO
Mobile supervisors covering more than one station. In what way is that safe?

finally thanks to my vicious, slow witted, reactionary union we are now getting a lovely 4.7% pay rise so I am more than happy to stick with them.

Have a lovely weekend

I stand corrected just received an email looks like the two unions are out at the same time.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by lubo

Agency workers in LU uniforms that have not received adequate training.Would I trust them how to turn off traction current? NO
Mobile supervisors covering more than one station. In what way is that safe?

Would you supply any details on how many times in the last 12 months the current has been turned off at a outer boundary station at the off peak times? There seems to be precious little information in the public domain. As I've said before, how I differentiate between the new under trained staff and the witless drones who seem to have been there for some years is going to be a challenge.

Originally Posted by lubo

finally thanks to my vicious, slow witted, reactionary union we are now getting a lovely 4.7% pay rise so I am more than happy to stick with them.

Have a lovely weekend

I stand corrected just received an email looks like the two unions are out at the same time.

The only ray of light about the 2012 Olympics is that there is inevitably going to be a showdown before it starts- one that for reasons well beyond the boundary of London, the government cannot afford to lose. I look forward to the letters RMT carrying the same relevance as NUM henceforth.

[lubo]

Not back at work now until Tuesday but i'll try and find that out for you.
Well at least we should get a decent payrise in 2011 then.
Anyway there are actually nine points at issue here
1-Ticket office closures. LUL temporarily halted plans to close 40 ticket offices and to cut the opening times of many more after the unions' campaign campaign last year led to a public outcry. However, LUL has refused to say that the plans have been withdrawn completely.

2-Staffing levels - emergency plans and guidelines: LUL has unilaterally decided to vary Section 4.2 of the Congestion Control and Emergency Plan to remove the specification of the minimum numbers of each grade of station staff that are to be on duty at any time.

3-Refusal to work on grounds of safety: Under the guise of simplification LUL has changed its policy, undermining safety and breaching legislation.

4-Mobile supervisors: LUL wants to introduce 'mobile supervisors' responsible for several stations, and to continue to staff stations recently taken over from Silverlink only during the limited hours decided by the previous franchise holder. But what happens in an emergency when the mobile supervisor is in the wrong place - or even stuck between stations on a train?

5-Terminal 5 staffing: LUL wants to staff the new station with staff subcontracted from other firms but wearing LUL uniforms.

6-Use of agency staff: LUL wants to continue using agency staff on former Silverlink stations, including those used for ticketing and revenue duties

7-Use of security staff: RMT and TSSA are demanding an agreement that security at all LUL-owned or -managed stations must be provided at all times by directly employed staff in appropriate grades, supplemented by the normal co-operation with the BTP and Metropolitan police forces.

8-Lone working: RMT and TSSA are demanding an agreement that there must be no rostered lone working unless undertaken from a place of safety.

9-Direct recruitment of station supervisors, train operators and service-control staff: LUL is now systematically denying career opportunities to experienced railway staff and recruiting externally, turning on its head an agreement that external advertising can take place if there are insufficient internal applications.

Now how anyone can honestly argue for any of these points is beyond belief.
You would think we wanted to lose three days pay.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by lubo

Not back at work now until Tuesday but i'll try and find that out for you.

Just as well there's no rush.

Originally Posted by lubo

Well at least we should get a decent payrise in 2011 then.

And a box to live in thereafter hopefully

Originally Posted by lubo

Anyway there are actually nine points at issue here
1-Ticket office closures. LUL temporarily halted plans to close 40 ticket offices and to cut the opening times of many more after the unions' campaign campaign last year led to a public outcry. However, LUL has refused to say that the plans have been withdrawn completely.

I wonder if telling the public what the saving might be could change their mind.

Originally Posted by lubo

2-Staffing levels - emergency plans and guidelines: LUL has unilaterally decided to vary Section 4.2 of the Congestion Cotrol and Emergency Plan to remove the specification of the minimum numbers of each grade of station staff that are to be on duty at any time.

I've seen no grade above simpleton recently- how will I tell?

Originally Posted by lubo

3-Refusal to work on grounds of safety: Under the guise of simplification LUL has changed its policy, undermining safety and breaching legislation.

RMT use "safety" for every single case of disagreement since the year dot. Overuse breeds complacency- I don't know if it means anything or not, I only know I don't trust you.

Originally Posted by lubo

4-Mobile supervisors: LUL wants to introduce 'mobile supervisors' responsible for several stations, and to continue to staff stations recently taken over from Silverlink only during the limited hours decided by the previous franchise holder. But what happens in an emergency when the mobile supervisor is in the wrong place - or even stuck between stations on a train?

Will they melt if they use other means of transport? Or are there rules against it?

Originally Posted by lubo

5-Terminal 5 staffing: LUL wants to staff the new station with staff subcontracted from other firms but wearing LUL uniforms.

Yep- in an area of international importance, I wouldn't want members of the RMT working there either.

Originally Posted by lubo

6-Use of agency staff: LUL wants to continue using agency staff on former Silverlink stations, including those used for ticketing and revenue duties

I look forward to ticketing staff that can count to 11 without opening their fly's.

Originally Posted by lubo

7-Use of security staff: RMT and TSSA are demanding an agreement that security at all LUL-owned or -managed stations must be provided at all times by directly employed staff in appropriate grades, supplemented by the normal co-operation with the BTP and Metropolitan police forces.

This makes no mention of what the alternative actually is.

Originally Posted by lubo

8-Lone working: RMT and TSSA are demanding an agreement that there must be no rostered lone working unless undertaken from a place of safety.

That'll be the locked ticket offices they don't emerge from anyway.

Originally Posted by lubo

9-Direct recruitment of station supervisors, train operators and service-control staff: LUL is now systematically denying career opportunities to experienced railway staff and recruiting externally, turning on its head an agreement that external advertising can take place if there are insufficient internal applications.

Trying to recruit members of staff with something other than fiscal loyalty?

Bloody hell, they'll be working normal hours next.

Originally Posted by lubo

Now how anyone can honestly argue for any of these points is beyond belief.
You would think we wanted to lose three days pay.

I don't see it that way. I also don't think that a three day strike is a penalty to you as you wouldn't do it otherwise.

[lubo]

Oh dear you really don't like the underground do you.
Why do you use it then?
I cannot be bothered to argue with you anymore.
If you fail to see how these points affect public safety then to be polite you are either a) a daily mail reading typical little englander or b) a ******.
Seeing how you earlier admitted to not reading any papers. I shall choose option B.
And if a mod wants to ban me so be it.

P.S
[removed personal comment]

[signs]

Yes it's a joke


Edit ..not read the hole thread

[signs]

Lubo, i'm not going to quote you ,but if i were you i would delete that in the morning


(who would have thought, a sensible reply from me ! )

EDIT.......... DOH... it is the morning