Grandparents rights

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 9:34 AM

The grandparents of our children have started demanding she see's the grandchildren for at least a week at a time (they live 300 miles away) and more often. They see them regulary, about 5 - 6 weeks a year. Sometimes it is not convenient to allow visits for a week at a time and not on the dates they are requesting. The grandparents have now become very aggressive calling me and my partner names, saying we are 'bad parents' and are calling us 'lazy slobs.'. We have said 'no, we will visit when we say it's convenient, not when you say it's convenient' the grandmother has said "we have rights" and slammed the phone down. This is become more and more of a problem since my daughter was born 3 months ago. The other child is 10 years old. Since December they have visted or been visited for 4 weeks in total. Grandparents don't technically have any rights over their grandchildren in the UK do they? I really have had enough of the verbal abuse and interfering, it's driving us insane and is very upsetting for my partner (their daughter).

Any experiences or advice would be welcome

Duncan G · 19-02-2008, 9:56 AM

Grandparents have no automatic rights to access to grandchildren in law.

Jenn · 19-02-2008, 9:56 AM

I'm no expert in this kind of things but 4 weeks in 2-3 months is a lot ! I mean, most children will see their grand parents one day a week (weekends) and many less especially with long distances.

If it went to court for some reason I doubt a judge would allow them to have the children for extended lengths of time like that.

My son will see my parents maybe 3-4 weeks a year as they live abroad.
Maybe the grand parents would be a bit happier if you and they had a webcam for the kids to talk to them when you can't go?

**RottenFox** · 19-02-2008, 10:03 AM

thats right,grandparents legally have no rights,its the parents that hold all the rights.
the only thing they can do,is apply under section 8 of the Children Act 1989 for contact.
but if you arent married to your partner,legally you have just as much rights really as the grandparents do when it comes down to the nitty gritty,unless you have a parenting order(for the oldest child,the youngest one,you will have it automatically if you are on the birth certificate*came into effect in 2003)

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

I'm no expert in this kind of things but 4 weeks in 2-3 months is a lot ! I mean, most children will see their grand parents one day a week (weekends) and many less especially with long distances.

If it went to court for some reason I doubt a judge would allow them to have the children for extended lengths of time like that.

My son will see my parents maybe 3-4 weeks a year as they live abroad.
Maybe the grand parents would be a bit happier if you and they had a webcam for the kids to talk to them when you can't go?

We have a webcam set up in the front room as my PC is connected to my 42" LCD TV. We let them see the grandchildren regulary on this.

I don't want to use all my annual leave to just sit at my partner's parent's house. I want to spend time with just my family in the family home. This doesn't even enter their heads? They expect us to let them see the grand kids for every spare moment we have. If we try and say no to this, they emotionally balck mail us and threaten us with 'their rights' which I don't believe they have. The problem is, if I put my foot down and say enough is enough, my partner becomes very upset due to the arguments that ensue.

Paulie-W · 19-02-2008, 10:17 AM

If the Grandparents are that desperate to see your kids, why can`t they come to you and book a hotel? Or maybe they should just move a bit closer. It seems with what you`ve done so far (web cam etc) you`ve done your bit to accommodate them, albeit in a virtual way.

If it were me i`d change phone numbers

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulie-W

If the Grandparents are that desperate to see your kids, why can`t they come to you and book a hotel? Or maybe they should just move a bit closer. It seems with what you`ve done so far (web cam etc) you`ve done your bit to accommodate them, albeit in a virtual way.

If it were me i`d change phone numbers

When they come here, I have to give up my bed for them as the grandfather had a stroke a few years ago. I was sleeping under the computer desk in the office for 17 days over Xmas whilst they stayed! They won't book into a B&B as they say they can't afford it. They think the north of England is "too cold" to live in, so would never move (I don't want them to either).

sim667 · 19-02-2008, 10:47 AM

Are these the in laws im guessing????

Get them a tent in the garden....

v CJ v · 19-02-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R1PLEY

When they come here, I have to give up my bed for them as the grandfather had a stroke a few years ago. I was sleeping under the computer desk in the office for 17 days over Xmas whilst they stayed! They won't book into a B&B as they say they can't afford it. They think the north of England is "too cold" to live in, so would never move (I don't want them to either).

That is ludacrus!!!

This sounds like a joke (i understand it's not), giving up your bed for the od occassion is fine, but not for 17 days (i've done it when my parents have stayed).

I can't beleive your partners parents are so narrow minded.

I was born in Bristol, but from the age of 10 i've lived in London and York with my parents. My Grandparents never demanded to see us, and enjoyed visiting us. I would see my grandparents for aprox 4 weeks of a year.

Now i see my grandparents and my parents aprox 2 weeks of the year as i live in York on my own, and have so for 5 years now. (Since i was 17 and parents moved back to Bristol)

I wouldn't expect my parents to demand to see my children (if / when i have them) and if they did, i'd be polite and blunt!

Sounds to me they are living in the past. People don't live in the next street to their parents anymore. They need to understand their daughter has made a life for herself 'Up North'. If they want to see the children, they need to meet half way.

One idea would be to meet the parents half way down the country, and drop the children off. Then meet a week later, half way, to collect.

Could be a nice break for you and your partner too.

Paulie-W · 19-02-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R1PLEY

When they come here, I have to give up my bed for them as the grandfather had a stroke a few years ago. I was sleeping under the computer desk in the office for 17 days over Xmas whilst they stayed! They won't book into a B&B as they say they can't afford it. They think the north of England is "too cold" to live in, so would never move (I don't want them to either).

Bloody hell. I feel for you mate.

What does your wife/partner think about all this? Without wanting to rock the boat, having to sleep under a friggin` desk is ridiculous. If it came to it, why not get an inflatable bed and tell them to either like it, lump it, or stay put.

Decadence · 19-02-2008, 11:25 AM

What is your partner's stance on this issue?

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sim667

Are these the in laws im guessing????

Get them a tent in the garden....

My partner and I are not actually married, but live together.

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paulie-W

Bloody hell. I feel for you mate.

What does your wife/partner think about all this? Without wanting to rock the boat, having to sleep under a friggin` desk is ridiculous. If it came to it, why not get an inflatable bed and tell them to either like it, lump it, or stay put.

I've only had to do that once. She came up for 17 days as my partner had just given birth so she was here to 'help' supposedly.

Razor · 19-02-2008, 11:32 AM

LMAO..... I know how much you love your inlaws Ripley. It must be driving you mad.

As I have said before just put your foot down, they are your kids. Mrs Ripley and you will decide who and where they spend their time. Its nothing to do with the grandparents. Buy them a cat or a dog as they are clearly bored and have empty lives.

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decadence

What is your partner's stance on this issue?

She just wants "everyone to be happy" so feels very torn. She tends to ignore their behaviour to keep her parents happy.

y2k · 19-02-2008, 11:38 AM

Tell the Granny to take up knitting and tell the Grandad to take up bowls, its obvious that they are bored and seeing their their grandchildren must be giving them something to do.

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

LMAO..... I know how much you love your inlaws Ripley. It must be driving you mad.

As I have said before just put your foot down, they are your kids. Mrs Ripley and you will decide who and where they spend their time. Its nothing to do with the grandparents. Buy them a cat or a dog as they are clearly bored and have empty lives.

Nice to hear from you old friend.

I have finally put my foot down as they slagged me off on the phone to mrs r1pley last night. This is why they are no saying they "have rights" now.

My question is even though they have no rights as such, how far can you restrict their seeing the grandchildren? We are being reasonable so if they went to court the judge wouldn't side with them presumably?

Mac Man · 19-02-2008, 12:47 PM

Really feel for you there R1PLEY.

This is no way for them to be acting. I can understand them wanting to see the children - I'll be the same when/if I ever have grandchildren of my own.

The last thing you want is for the whole scenario to drive a wedge between you and your partner. IMO the only way it can be resolved is with discussion and compromise from both sides.

For what it's worth I think they seem to be getting plenty of access give how far away they are. My sister lives in Spain and my parents only see their grandaughter about 3-4 times a year - so no more than 4-5 weeks in total. Sure they'd like more but distance and costs are prohibitive. Nice idea about the web cam thing though... I'll suggest that to them

Assuming you have no reservations about the children visiting/staying with them then I think it would be useful for all concerened to sit down and talk through the issues. They are probably wrapped up in their own little bubble and have no idea what life is like for you and your partner.

At the end of the day they are YOUR children, not theirs. You have to think about what's best for you as a family.

BTW - 17 days sleeping on the floor under a table

. You are a martyr and no mistake

geomuss · 19-02-2008, 12:59 PM

They have no rights to see your kids, period.

They seem to be trying to take control of YOUR family unit.
Explain to your partner how you feel and that their increasing demands are making you feel very uncomfortable with the whole idea.. If she is torn between loyalty to her parents and to you, then its time to play hardball. Tell her that it is, her that you have the relationship with, kids with, home with etc not her parents, She has to make a stand and back you up on this. After all it is the two of you in this relationship.

Time to get tough.

If this fails take the more direct approach and tell them to **** off !

Crocodile · 19-02-2008, 1:09 PM

As has been said already, they have no "rights" whatsoever. You would be perfectly entitled to withdraw all contact if you feel it is not in the children's interest for it to continue.

RottenFox is correct in that they could apply for a Contact Order but the only consideration that the court should make is what is in the children's best interest, not theirs.

Have a look at the Grandparents Association site for info & maybe give them a call for advice on mediation. That is without doubt the best way forward.

mooperman · 19-02-2008, 1:50 PM

if they are acting like this now the other thing i would be wary of is them slagging you off to the kids which could make things absolutely awful for your children which i think has to be the biggest worry... as said above, sit down, long chat compromise would , in my humble opinion, be the best way forward....

good luck though dude, i'm glad i'm not in that situation (or have kids for that matter!)...

Jenn · 19-02-2008, 2:03 PM

It's between you and your partner to decide but I'd guess your partner should put her foot down with her parents.

It's too easy for them to blame you if they're unhappy, their own daughter telling them they're wrong might just put them in their place.
I understand where she comes from with keeping the peace etc. but you have to live your life too and enjoy your children and partner without "interference".
You have done what can reasonably be expected of you already, any more than that would be demanding.

To be honest I'd feel like not going ever again after being slagged off and threatened on the phone. The only reason I'd go again would be for my partner.

LostFanBoy · 19-02-2008, 2:21 PM

get caller id and dont answer the phone

Squiffy · 19-02-2008, 2:23 PM

If your children have had substantial and continuing access to their grandparents, then it is likely that your grandparents could win a court order to enforce that right.

I know - my parents had to do exactly this with my {pick your own expletive} of a brother.

My niece stayed at my grandparents regularly. When my brother stopped giving them access (unless they gave him money), they managed to get a court order to enforce the right of the child to see their grandparents.

Of course any such order would have to be reasonable. And expecting your children to be taken from the family home for extended periods would seem unlikely to be upheld as reasonable.

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiffy

If your children have had substantial and continuing access to their grandparents, then it is likely that your grandparents could win a court order to enforce that right.

I know - my parents had to do exactly this with my {pick your own expletive} of a brother.

My niece stayed at my grandparents regularly. When my brother stopped giving them access (unless they gave him money), they managed to get a court order to enforce the right of the child to see their grandparents.

Of course any such order would have to be reasonable. And expecting your children to be taken from the family home for extended periods would seem unlikely to be upheld as reasonable.

We are not stopping access, we are just saying the access has to be when it's convenient to us and for a duration that we feel is adequate.

h4rri · 19-02-2008, 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R1PLEY

We are not stopping access, we are just saying the access has to be when it's convenient to us and for a duration that we feel is adequate.

Good on you, I have to say though I wish I had my parents visiting so often. Mine come down 3-4 times a year to see my daughter and visit my sisters every other weekend. I live 2 miles away my sister 100!

It's hard being in the middle so I would sit your partner down and discuss the issue fully with her. You will need to take her lead and support whatever action she wants to take, if you cause a rift it could drive you apart

Squiffy · 19-02-2008, 2:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R1PLEY

We are not stopping access, we are just saying the access has to be when it's convenient to us and for a duration that we feel is adequate.

And the court will look to keep as close to the access your parents have had so far, so long as that is still reasonable.

So the arrangements the judge decides on might not suit you if it ever goes to court.

h4rri · 19-02-2008, 2:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiffy

And the court will look to keep as close to the access your parents have had so far, so long as that is still reasonable.

So the arrangements the judge decides on might not suit you if it ever goes to court.

But at the end of the day it's a long drawn out process and nothing is stopping the parents from 'being unavoidably out' when it's time for them to visit. It happens a lot in custody cases and you simply have to go back to court and re-argue for access.

It's not fun and would ruin any relationship, imagine the kids too .. "sorry kids can't go on holiday as Granny is coming that week" etc etc. They would grow to resent them and thats not something you want to happen.

overkill · 19-02-2008, 2:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squiffy

And the court will look to keep as close to the access your parents have had so far, so long as that is still reasonable.

So the arrangements the judge decides on might not suit you if it ever goes to court.

I'm not sure about this squiffy. The circumstances surrounding your siblings arrangements with the child's grandparents are very different. In the case of a fixed (or as near to as the courts can ascertain) access to the child the grandparents can indeed apply to see the grandchild under the existing terms. However, (from what I remember from the cases I saw at the CSA) if there is no such fixed arrangement, and the child's parents are not refusing access, there is nothing in law that says the courts can intervene. I know this because a child's grandparents were refused access (under the terms they wanted) as the parents successfully claimed that no such arrangement existed.

The question is 'fixed arrangement'.

I might be wrong as that was a few years back, but that was how the law stood back then.

Urien Rheged · 19-02-2008, 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overkill

I'm not sure about this squiffy. The circumstances surrounding your siblings arrangements with the child's grandparents are very different. In the case of a fixed (or as near to as the courts can ascertain) access to the child the grandparents can indeed apply to see the grandchild under the existing terms. However, (from what I remember from the cases I saw at the CSA) if there is no such fixed arrangement, and the child's parents are not refusing access, there is nothing in law that says the courts can intervene. I know this because a child's grandparents were refused access (under the terms they wanted) as the parents successfully claimed that no such arrangement existed.

The question is 'fixed arrangement'.

I might be wrong as that was a few years back, but that was how the law stood back then.

That's very interesting. Thanks. It all depends on what you define as a 'fixed arrangement' then. We do not have set dates or times when the grandparents see the grandchildren. It has always just been the case that it 'usually' happens as some point during schools holidays. The dates and durations vary and sometimes the visits don't happen at all. Is this a 'fixed arrangement'?