[DJT75]

Originally Posted by Rich

We've just had a composite door fitted (which is re-enforced with steel), very safe, apparently the police have trouble breaking these down, and they look a lot nicer than UPVC.
Our's must weigh about 200lbs.

http://www.justdoorsuk.com/composite...upply_only.htm

Just had a composite door fitted too. It was only a couple of hundred quid more than a PVC & looks the dogs. Lock can't be snapped, bumped, drilled, anything - super secure.

Rockdoor - Totally Secure & Maintenance Free Composite Doors

Edit - oops, didn't spot the spamming, sorry

[Orson]

For anyone who's interested, and in the interests of fairness, coming from someone who deals with door locks & cylinders on a daily basis, and has done so for the past... 20 years or so

There are several manufacturers of either Anti-bump, Anti-snap, Anti-drill & Anti-pick (and various combinations thereof) door cylinders available, some lock manufacturers you may have heard of, but most you won't have.
A simple web search will find lots.
It's difficult to recommend one more than another, as there are many that perform equally; to narrow the choice, look for certifications, British/European Standards etc.

However, personally I'd steer well clear of any make of any product that is recommended by someone who resorts to pretending to be a satisfied customer, when in fact they are connected with the manufacture/supply of said product.

But to set a few minds at ease, in my previous job, I supplied an average of 250 doors per week for 14 years, and the number we heard about being snapped was barely in double figures. Obviously, we won't of heard about them all, but it should give some kind of perspective. And snapping is far more common than any of the other methods.

So as Nick Ross would say.... don't have nightmares

[LV426]

Originally Posted by Orson

...I'd steer well clear of any make of any product that is recommended by someone who resorts to pretending to be a satisfied customer, when in fact they are connected with the manufacture/supply of said product...

I just want to stress; the matter above is about a specific SUPPLIER - not about the manufacturer or brand.

[Chadford]

Just out of interest, can standard Yale locks be 'bumped'?

[Orson]

Basically any cylinder type lock, from any manufacturer can be bumped, unless it has an anti bump feature.

[Fowl]

Originally Posted by Chadford

Just out of interest, can standard Yale locks be 'bumped'?

Pretty much. I saw a guy on youtube doing a padlock as well. Seems like a pretty huge flaw.

Funnily enough my parents have just had a uvpc door fitted the day before I heard of this.

I plan on making a bump key just to see if it's doable.

[27neth]

My joiner mate has one which fits the whole of the housing estate he worked on He made it so he did not have to drill the locks out when the tenants done a runner (it does work well). it takes about a minute to get in..

John..

[ACB16v]

Hi
You are right about the UPVC problem. The anti snapping is the thing to watch.

I use Mul-T-Lock on various different platforms, mainly Intergrator, MT5, Interactive or Garrison depending on budgets etc...

The best way is to key all the upvc doors the same (one key as stated above) and then put SASH jammers on the windows also if required.

Happy to help if required..

Andy

[DJ Ovengloves]

I purchased the same locks and also had CISA locks before

If you read the blurb on the website - they themselves state that bumping is hardly used in the real-world That said I feel better for installing them.

Originally Posted by TEKNIK

NOT THAT MUCH LONGER. My "crim" managed to get in to the Cisa in 30 seconds!!!!

bought my abs from www.abs-secure.co.uk got both front, back and conservatory doors, and shed padlock all on the same key!

[rickthepick]

I have worked as a locksmith for many years now and have never attnded the scene of a burglary involving bumping, its complete rubbish and would only get you in a handful of cheap chinese junk locks and even then still requires a certain amount of technique that bob the burglar doesnt have.

I can see that avocet are spamming this board in order to raise awareness of the new abs cylinder which in fact can be picked open fairly easilly anyway although do provide better protection against locks snapping.

[Flimber]

Originally Posted by rickthepick

...I can see that avocet are spamming this board in order to raise awareness of the new abs cylinder which in fact can be picked open fairly easilly anyway although do provide better protection against locks snapping.

Pot calling Kettle...ah, never mind...

Where please ?

[Orson]

Originally Posted by Flimber

Pot calling Kettle...ah, never mind...

Where please ?

It was in Post 26 & 28. They were advertising, and were infracted... seems rickthepick is doing the same

[Flimber]

Ta. Spot who couldn't be bothered scrolling up

[Orson]

That must be the 'super' part coming out

[IronGiant]

Also some genuine members were recommending some products and as a new member rick the pick probably couldn't spot the genuines from the spammers

[rickthepick]

Originally Posted by Orson

It was in Post 26 & 28. They were advertising, and were infracted... seems rickthepick is doing the same

I wasnt advertising or pushing towards any product my site gives advice and info on upvc doors and locks.

I cant see a problem with me providing a relevant link, even if i do have my own agenda.

I wont argue the case though you're the mod

[DJ Ovengloves]

As I mentioned!

I find it a bit rich that you then go to mention lock picking...you of all people should know that burglars don't pick locks, locksmith's do!

Originally Posted by rickthepick

I have worked as a locksmith for many years now and have never attnded the scene of a burglary involving bumping, its complete rubbish and would only get you in a handful of cheap chinese junk locks and even then still requires a certain amount of technique that bob the burglar doesnt have.

I can see that avocet are spamming this board in order to raise awareness of the new abs cylinder which in fact can be picked open fairly easilly anyway although do provide better protection against locks snapping.

Originally Posted by Lee_AVF

I purchased the same locks and also had CISA locks before

If you read the blurb on the website - they themselves state that bumping is hardly used in the real-world That said I feel better for installing them.

[Orson]

Originally Posted by rickthepick

...

I wont argue the case though you're the mod

Oooh, promotion! When do I get the 'outfit'

[IronGiant]

You mean you haven't received it yet?

[arrons]

Originally Posted by razz1979

We've got these front & back. & yes, both the police & fire service are not big fans.

Thats because police and fire service dont know how to get into them like burglars do, composite doors are just as simple as upvc doors unless the locks have been upgraded to anti snap/bump cylinders along with pas24 high security handles

[DJ Ovengloves]

Andf I'll bet you'll tell us where to get them from

(and you should know that some locks don't need the PAS24 handles to be PAS24 certified)

[arrons]

Originally Posted by Orson

The cylinders talked about on that site are anti-snap or break safe, rather than anti-bump. There is a difference, which involves the method used for getting in them. Almost all anti-snap cylinders currently installed can be 'bumped', and although this is slightly more difficult than snapping (which just involves brute force), it still makes them vunerable. What anti-snap does is deter the more opportunist or amatuer burgler.




You can replace a door cylinder very easily yourself, and it realy should not affect any warranty. You can get anti-snap ones from lots of places, Screwfix is probably one that most people have heard of, and theirs are again under £20 per cylinder. Anti-bump ones are more difficult to get hold of, but are available, but costs could be in anything from £50 each upwards, but the price of these will come down over the coming months

The standard to look for on doors is PAS24, which covers enhanced security. You can also look for the Secure by Design logo, which is the highest current 'standard' which is quite stringent (it incorporates PAS24), and is approved by various police authorities. From 2009, all doors sold with PAS24 will incorporate anti-snap & anti-bump cylinders.

But to ease your concerns a little, even the current 'Secure by Design' standard (you may have seen it on some adverts, a very 'police' looking logo) does not incorporate either anti-snap or anti-bump.

As regards which is most secure, it's all pretty subjective, personally, I think a good quality PVCu door with decent locks & cylinders is better than any wooden door... but then I'm in the plastic frames industry But again, I have an old wooden front door, which I think anyone could pull open by hand, and I don't lose slep over it either.

But if you've spoken to companies who don't know about anti-snap, anti-bump, or PAS24, then steer well clear.

As regards to wich is most secure i have to as a locksmith/joiner strongly disagree with you, wooden doors are much more secure than upvc doors by a long long way thiefs cant compromise the 5 lever locks like they can with multipoint locks.I have been called out to thousands of break-ins and its always upvc doors or doors that have multipoint locks. However you can now get upvc doors that have multipoint locks fitted that use the same type key as a 5 lever bs3621 lock that are commonly fitted in wooden doors

So the way to put a stop to burglars getting through your doors in a few seconds is to buy a upvc door with the MORTICE type key NOT the CYLINDER type key, this puts an end to snapping and bumping full stop. Once all upvc doors have this type of mortice key operation then they will be just as secure as wooden doors.

But do remember if someone realy wants to get into your property they will do no matter what security you have, its just the pure simplicity of getting into upvc doors that burglars target them

[Orson]

Originally Posted by Member 526900

As regards to wich is most secure i have to as a locksmith/joiner strongly disagree with you, wooden doors are much more secure than upvc doors by a long long way thiefs cant compromise the 5 lever locks like they can with multipoint locks.

I'm not sure which part you strongly disagree with, if you read the post you quoted, you'll see that I said "a good quality PVCu door with decent locks & cylinders", not a cheap crap door with rubbish locks.

That's a bit like me saying all wooden doors are rubbish because I've replaced some that had 'Pound Shop' two lever locks that I could open with a spoon.

[arrons]

Originally Posted by Orson

I'm not sure which part you strongly disagree with, if you read the post you quoted, you'll see that I said "a good quality PVCu door with decent locks & cylinders", not a cheap crap door with rubbish locks.

That's a bit like me saying all wooden doors are rubbish because I've replaced some that had 'Pound Shop' two lever locks that I could open with a spoon.

If its got a cylinder type lock its rubbish with or without snap safe cylinders and i think you will find that the huge majority of wooden doors have 5 lever mortice locks to bs3621 if they havent they need upgrading to meet this standard, i have never been to a job yet to replace the locks on a wooden door and found 2 lever locks although i have on internal wooden doors, top and bottom of it upvc doors are by far easier to get into thats why burglars prefer them, i havent come across any external wooden doors that have 2lever locks fitted but i can go on every street of every town and find a pvc door that a burglar can get into in 20 to 30 seconds they cant do this with wooden doors fitted with 5 LEVER BS3621 INSURANCE STANDARD locks.All i will say is to people that are not sure, if you get upvc doors make sure its got the lock mechanism that as the mortice type key then you will keep the burglars away because they can tell straight away by the key way. where do you get them from! shop around.......Rolleyes

[IronGiant]

I think you are very naive or disingenuous if you don't think most wooden front doors don't just have a low grade Yale type cylinder lock in them... And if they do come with an additional dead lock, how often are they used? I suspect most wooden back doors still only have two or three cylinder mortice locks in them at most, either.

[arrons]

Originally Posted by IronGiant

I think you are very naive or disingenuous if you don't think most wooden front doors don't just have a low grade Yale type cylinder lock in them... And if they do come with an additional dead lock, how often are they used? I suspect most wooden back doors still only have two or three cylinder mortice locks in them at most, either.

What a load of bull.... i think its you thats naive you are wrong. The point is this, people are worried about burglars if a burglar was going to break into a house there was 2 houses to choose from 1 with a wooden door 1 with a upvc by the way the wooden door as a low grade yale cylinder the burglar would choose the upvc door every time . This is not about locksmiiths getting into doors its about the thief. by the way iam not against upvc doors they are great like i say especially to the general public choose a pvc door that as the mortice key operated locking mechanism.

[Orson]

I know I should.'t, but I can't help myself...

Ok.

Originally Posted by Member 526900

If its got a cylinder type lock its rubbish with or without snap safe cylinders

Absolutely incorrect. There are some cheap rubbish cylinders about, and there are also some really, really good ones.

Originally Posted by Member 526900

and i think you will find that the huge majority of wooden doors have 5 lever mortice locks to bs3621

I think you will find they do not. The majority I've replaced (25 years) have, as IG said above, single Yale type cylinder latch/locks, only they're generally a cheap 'own brand' that can be bought for a couple of quid from many places. And can be opened with a screwdriver fairly easily in a lot of cases.

Originally Posted by Member 526900

What a load of bull.... i think its you thats naive you are wrong

I'll stop now, as I don't really want to make any more work for people, and disagreeing with someone as rude as you are is only likely to cause the generally pleasant folks on here more hassle.

[ldoodle]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but also think about the handles as well.

I replaced mine last year with mole-grip resistent ones, as well as PAS24 certification. Changed the cylinders to keyed-alike ones with anti-everything.

Cost me about £70 all in from handlestore.com

Cylinder: Euro Cylinders For uPVC Door Locks Anti-Bump and Anti-Snap Resistance
Handles: HandleStore.com – upvc window handles - upvc door handles

At the end of the day, if someone really wants to get in, they will get in. Short of having nuclear bomb proof doors/windows there's not much you can do - delay them/make them give in yes, entirely stop crazily determined ones no.

[Antonyc]

Didn't read the whole thread but know that burglars rarely smash through doors through a Police man friend; they often lever open wooden windows at the rear of the house or bump/snap ordinary euro-profile cylinders (the ones commonly found in uPVC doors).

You can buy the Mul-T-Lock Break Secure and Kaba pExtra LAM (both high-security) here Lock Cylinder High-Security Replacements | Buy Online | CIA.

There is a video showing how very easily they can be fit - a 5 minute job. I got my 'key outside, turn knob inside' cylinder from these guys, I ordered online - a breeze - the locks turned up next day with the extra keys I'd ordered and I've gone back since and ordered a key both ends type for my front door that works off of the same key! U can't get that from Screwfix!!!

[Switch625]

So after reading in the news today about the rise in lock snapping (link) I've been thinking about fitting an anti bump/snap lock on our door.

One result that comes up is the Avocet ABS (link) - does anyone in the know recommend these? Or has anybody updated their locks to these?