[Ethics Gradient]

Originally posted on another thread, which I have deleted.

I hope that the following goes in some way to help in understanding the human condition ... and in particular mine. At the very least, I hope it goes some way to better communicating what I feel and how I come across, so as to try and limit any bad feelings.

I have been within this community for more than 4 years - and feel it is part of my life, particularly my internet life which at the moment is a considerable chunk of it.

----------------------------------------------------------

There is a problem - for some reason people continually miss read what I write.
It's probably down to the fact that we are all human and fallible - I don't always express my ideas in the best way, others don't always read them correctly.

Maybe another of my flaws is to believe that sometimes people are deliberately obtuse and then reacting to it.

It is difficult to work out:

- when it is a genuine mistake because of the way I have worded or miss represented my ideas or thoughts.
- when people are actively seeking to simply have an arguement with me for the sake of it.
- or when some people simply don't get the concepts and ideas.

I will certainly try and future to think about which one it is rather than letting my emotive responses dictate which I assume it is without due consideration.

As I have mentioned before, I am extremely passionate about certain issues - and those passions do run away with me.
It is, in a large part down to the state of my mind. Which at the best of times causes me no end of bother.
I have suffered from depression and many years ago, attempted suicide by overdose... being stomach pumped in hospital is enough to make you want to die even if you are not even suicidal in the first place
I now live in fear of every feeling that way again - I am literally terrified or feeling so dispondant again, that it affects the way I live.
I also suffer from social anxiety disorder and have for over 20 years. It makes my life difficult in the fact that I have to live with an irrational voice screaming at me telling me I am going to die from embarassment.
Having a phobic reaction to even attempting to ask a woman out for a date, or standing in a shop for 10 minutes pretending you were looking for something after going in by mistake and are terrified that people will think you are an idiot.
.... it also leads me to hate to be missunderstood to a compulsive level. Which may go some way to explaining the soap box preaching when it comes to feeling like I have been miss represented.

I rationally know that I can be a pain in the bum - but I have a compulsion and phobia about being seen as a bad person at least when it is based on an incorrect reading of something I meant.
I am extremely self critical - and spend far too long to be healthy examining my own morality

You may or may not have noticed that I only comment on subjects that I have either experience of or researched to some length - my fear of being missrepresented or sounding stupid stops me commenting on topics I don't understand. ( I may be deluded in the level of expertise in a particular subject - but thats a different issue )

I have in my life been proven wrong on mainy things - it is always going to be the case. I accept that I am constantly learning and try to take onboard any new ideas that have been shown to be more correct than my own.

The following comments are to try and clarify posts I have made where their have been bad feelings within the community.

I will try and make this as clear as possible:

I only consider comments that contain no information evidence or anything else other than simple disagreement as ignorance - and only when they seem to contain flippent insults.
Mainly because they often only contain insult and nothing else.

The converstation goes like this:

person A: The new law is terrible, it affects business practices and my income.

person B: the law is fine

person A: why ?

person B: because only greedy people care about it and it doesn't affect me

Person A: *** reasoned arguement *****

person B: you are arrogant and wrong.


^ that is what I am reacting to.

Conversation is fine, posting basic opinion is fine, you can say you don't agree or what ever you want.
I go on the defencive because time after time - posters have responded in an insulting way without bothering.

I got fed up with that and made a statement to say I did not consider that ' valid '

Everyone then wants a pop at me for being a fascist, sounding like a nazi, arrogance etc.
It is funny that they can hold aggressive opinions and spout hatred of this and that quite often .... yet I am the bad man.

Maybe I am arrogant, and I know the way I commincate some of my ideas are not the most readable or best approach.

But a serious number of people need to stand back and consider the blatant hypocrisy evident in their attempts to pilarise me.

.... but it seems that even pointing that no one is perfect, accepting some of my own weaknesses and trying to show certain hypocrisies labels me a bad guy ..... because most people certainly won't accept that they might not be the perfect, honest and admired people they seem to feel they are.

A more accurate example of some of what I have mentioned is as follows:

We were discussing the distatest full subject of paedphiles and the possibility of a new law / making the sex offenders register public.

Myself and a few others pointed out that this would be a bad idea based on a considerable amount of research carried out by various organisations including National childrens societies and respected authorities.
They stated that publishing names and address of sex offenders would lead to greater problems in society and have a negative impact on the protection of innocent children - as well as a other problems within society.

We tried to argue the point with this evidence, but many of us got called ' paedophile supporters ' by other posters .... which of course made people like me quite upset and prone to post more evidence.

That and similar incidents led to me gaining the reputation as ' Mr no it all, thinks he is always right '... and getting the perception of arrogance - because of the way I reacted to it.

There often are issues when most of us have a basic view of how things work - yet it with some esoteric knowledge, others know that it does not actually work that way.
The big problem with esoteric knowledge, is that it requires time and effort to get to grips with ... and is beyond many of us .... I try my hardest to understand quantum physics .. but I fall way short.
Yet I have to accept that it can and is proven that newtonian physics does not work for every situation in the universe ... but the majority of us still think it does and make decisions and opinions based on that. We all need to understand that we have limits.

I passionately care about what happens to humanity ( too much so with regards to fitting in and getting on in society ) - I see suffering around me each day. I find it increasingly hard to live with myself and this world when I see things that could be fixed but due what I see as silly rules or daft ideas causing pain and death around the world.

Feeling that way obviously affects the way I represent myself .... so appolgies to those to whom it causes offence. I am in the end, only human.

[Nimby]

EG

Your signature is probably responsible for many of your perceived online problems.

More seriously(?) I find that it has become increasingly popular for some people to post aggressive or pointless responses to the most innocent of posts.

The reason is obvious. A poster adopts a user name and then assumes virtual anonymity. Tracing anybody is difficult. Risk of censure or actual prosecution is very low indeed. There lies the problem. The weak-willed see it as a perfect chance to be bloodyminded. To become a cyber-bully without personal risk is the perfect gift to some weak or damaged people. They cannot resist the temptation to attack those they perceive as weak, or even too open about themselves online.

But always remember that text is open to many interpretations. I often see humour where others don't. If I respond in kind I may seriously embarrass the OP without ever meaning to.

These forums are very well moderated in general. Over-moderated in some respects but that is just a reflection of the will of the AVForums owner. He wants to draw a line somewhere and that is his business. Aggression is certainly not tolerated on these forums but is the norm on very many others.

If you feel that somebody is deliberately targetting you or your posts then ignore them and they will go away. The bloodyminded thrive on fear and irritation. Your response is their fix. Fixers need ever larger doses of what will eventually kill them. Or hopefully get them banned.

Others are perfectly entitled to their opinions as long as they express them reasonably and they do not breach the law, public morality or forum rules. Some people really are "nutcases" by our own standards. They go against the opinions we hold so dear. Examine what others say and ask yourself if it is your reaction which is wrong. Or have you simply misunderstood their post? Opinions are (or should be) malleable. Do not expect deeply reasoned responses here. Chat forums are often used as relaxation and fun. They are often an escape from reality. The office bore may thrive on clever one liners online. He has time to think and compose before committing the social blunder he expects if he ever opens his mouth in public.

So don't be a victim. Become a clown. Or just ignore "them". If you don't respond they can't come back at you. If they post twice their motives become transparent. Do not expect support from the mods if you stick your neck out and retaliate publicly. Belittling or attacking what you perceive as obvious bullying will often result in your own censure. As I know to my own cost.

[hermanmunster]

I understand exactly what you are trying to convey. I too have been treated in this way.....however I have to confess that occasionally I have returned with comments that upon reflection were less than helpful.

Posting on a forum is akin to sending emails but as nimby said quite eloquently, on here you are virtually anonymous. Most of us will have sent emails that we later regretted or at least thought, perhaps I could have written something more constructive or positive. It's very much the same on here; occassionaly you feel someone is being ridiculous or attacking something or someone that matters to you. It is then very easy to send a missive without too much thought to the consequences.

Given this perhaps an appeal to everyone to wait for a few minutes and re read a post that engenders an emotional response, before carefully constructing a reply.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Nimby

If you feel that somebody is deliberately targetting you or your posts then ignore them and they will go away.

I think that you have the wrong end of the stick as EG is trying to explain why some people may perceive that he is targeting their posts and not the other way round.

To be brutally honest many people do see EG as an arrogant intellectual bully and react in different ways. Some put him on a pedestal giving him nicknames like "Billy Science" whilst others just ignore his posting altogether citing his adoption of the nickname as further proof of his arrogance.

I am afraid that I fall into the second category and will rarely enter into a debate in which EG is participating as I don't react well to anyone trying to pound me into submission just because I disagree with their views.

Apologies for being brutally frank but in a week or two this thread will be long forgotten but the problem will remain

[Nimby]

One should remember that it takes considerable courage and willpower to fight your corner sometimes. If you don't have these or absolute conviction in your beliefs then don't respond to a thread! Posting is still completely voluntary.

As to your example: Many have deeply ingrained hatred of paedophiles. Probably most of us has suffered at least once from these perverts. Defending some aspect of their persecution or prosecution may well raise many hackles. I'd castrate them all with a carpenter's saw and hang the perverts naked from the nearest lamppost to shrivel up and die. But you have to think of the children. This sort of behaviour might well make the kids more vulnerable rather than protect them. As may naming and shaming the perverts publicly. I imagine an ankle bracelet might be more useful in controlling predatory behaviour. One which gives the bracelet owner an injection or painful shock if his heartrate rises above a maximum permissible level. Unfortunately, this sort of technology is only one step on from having millions of street cameras!

But I digress.

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by Ian J

Apologies for being brutally frank but in a week or two this thread will be long forgotten but the problem will remain

Booger!

That'll teach me to defend someone in a forum I rarely visit.

I am hypersensitive to bullying and that makes me very likely to overreact in defence of those claiming persecution.

My sincere apologies to all of those who feel aggrieved by the OP's former behaviour.

Dya want we should send da boys rand to edjicate him, like?

[McFaber]

Originally Posted by Nimby

I am hypersensitive to bullying and that makes me very likely to overreact in defence of those claiming persecution.

I agree,
Bullying of any manner, is not a comfortable subject and certainly shouldn't be taken lightly imo.

Why does someone with better grasp of the English grammar aka swallowed a dictionary, occasionally cyber-bully the lesser mortals to a degree of insulting the offended poster for his bad grammar because maybe he can't the point of the subject across.

Asides,self-boasting is all fine with a bit of tongue-in-the-cheek thrown in, but putting yourself on a pedestal is what I call the head in the sand mentality and their is plenty of that on the Plasma forums IMO, which is why I've chosen not to venture there lately.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by andysb

I agree,
Bullying of any manner, is not a comfortable subject and certainly shouldn't be taken lightly imo.

Why does someone with better grasp of the English grammar aka swallowed a dictionary, occasionally cyber-bully the lesser mortals to a degree of insulting the offended poster for his bad grammar because maybe he can't the point of the subject across.

Asides,self-boasting is all fine with a bit of tongue-in-the-cheek thrown in, but putting yourself on a pedestal is what I call the head in the sand mentality and their is plenty of that on the Plasma forums IMO, which is why I've chosen not to venture there lately.

Happens in all the forums unfortunately. I fell foul of a few characters in the PC forum, and after being talked to like I was a congenital idiot for giving what wasn't unreasonable advice, I gave it up as bad job. What make me laugh hardest of all, is the hifi forum, an area where sound quality is very much subjective as everyone hears audio in different ways, the 'statistics brigade' march in and are only too willing to talk to you as though you are gibbering cretin for not agreeing with them that everything can be quantified. In hifi, it most definitely can't.

Nimby, EG has rubbed me up the wrong way at times, but I just accept that's the way he is. Doubtless I do the same to other people - and to EG. However, I do apologise if I feel I've stepped out of line, or someone takes umbrage.

Something that some others are not always that willing to do.

[Stephen Wilde]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

Originally posted on another thread, which I have deleted.

I hope that the following goes in some way to help in understanding the human condition ... and in particular mine. At the very least, I hope it goes some way to better communicating what I feel and how I come across, so as to try and limit any bad feelings.

I have been within this community for more than 4 years - and feel it is part of my life, particularly my internet life which at the moment is a considerable chunk of it.

----------------------------------------------------------

There is a problem - for some reason people continually miss read what I write.
It's probably down to the fact that we are all human and fallible - I don't always express my ideas in the best way, others don't always read them correctly.

Maybe another of my flaws is to believe that sometimes people are deliberately obtuse and then reacting to it.

It is difficult to work out:

- when it is a genuine mistake because of the way I have worded or miss represented my ideas or thoughts.
- when people are actively seeking to simply have an arguement with me for the sake of it.
- or when some people simply don't get the concepts and ideas.

I will certainly try and future to think about which one it is rather than letting my emotive responses dictate which I assume it is without due consideration.

As I have mentioned before, I am extremely passionate about certain issues - and those passions do run away with me.
It is, in a large part down to the state of my mind. Which at the best of times causes me no end of bother.
I have suffered from depression and many years ago, attempted suicide by overdose... being stomach pumped in hospital is enough to make you want to die even if you are not even suicidal in the first place
I now live in fear of every feeling that way again - I am literally terrified or feeling so dispondant again, that it affects the way I live.
I also suffer from social anxiety disorder and have for over 20 years. It makes my life difficult in the fact that I have to live with an irrational voice screaming at me telling me I am going to die from embarassment.
Having a phobic reaction to even attempting to ask a woman out for a date, or standing in a shop for 10 minutes pretending you were looking for something after going in by mistake and are terrified that people will think you are an idiot.
.... it also leads me to hate to be missunderstood to a compulsive level. Which may go some way to explaining the soap box preaching when it comes to feeling like I have been miss represented.

I rationally know that I can be a pain in the bum - but I have a compulsion and phobia about being seen as a bad person at least when it is based on an incorrect reading of something I meant.
I am extremely self critical - and spend far too long to be healthy examining my own morality

You may or may not have noticed that I only comment on subjects that I have either experience of or researched to some length - my fear of being missrepresented or sounding stupid stops me commenting on topics I don't understand. ( I may be deluded in the level of expertise in a particular subject - but thats a different issue )

I have in my life been proven wrong on mainy things - it is always going to be the case. I accept that I am constantly learning and try to take onboard any new ideas that have been shown to be more correct than my own.

The following comments are to try and clarify posts I have made where their have been bad feelings within the community.

I will try and make this as clear as possible:

I only consider comments that contain no information evidence or anything else other than simple disagreement as ignorance - and only when they seem to contain flippent insults.
Mainly because they often only contain insult and nothing else.

The converstation goes like this:

person A: The new law is terrible, it affects business practices and my income.

person B: the law is fine

person A: why ?

person B: because only greedy people care about it and it doesn't affect me

Person A: *** reasoned arguement *****

person B: you are arrogant and wrong.


^ that is what I am reacting to.

Conversation is fine, posting basic opinion is fine, you can say you don't agree or what ever you want.
I go on the defencive because time after time - posters have responded in an insulting way without bothering.

I got fed up with that and made a statement to say I did not consider that ' valid '

Everyone then wants a pop at me for being a fascist, sounding like a nazi, arrogance etc.
It is funny that they can hold aggressive opinions and spout hatred of this and that quite often .... yet I am the bad man.

Maybe I am arrogant, and I know the way I commincate some of my ideas are not the most readable or best approach.

But a serious number of people need to stand back and consider the blatant hypocrisy evident in their attempts to pilarise me.

.... but it seems that even pointing that no one is perfect, accepting some of my own weaknesses and trying to show certain hypocrisies labels me a bad guy ..... because most people certainly won't accept that they might not be the perfect, honest and admired people they seem to feel they are.

A more accurate example of some of what I have mentioned is as follows:

We were discussing the distatest full subject of paedphiles and the possibility of a new law / making the sex offenders register public.

Myself and a few others pointed out that this would be a bad idea based on a considerable amount of research carried out by various organisations including National childrens societies and respected authorities.
They stated that publishing names and address of sex offenders would lead to greater problems in society and have a negative impact on the protection of innocent children - as well as a other problems within society.

We tried to argue the point with this evidence, but many of us got called ' paedophile supporters ' by other posters .... which of course made people like me quite upset and prone to post more evidence.

That and similar incidents led to me gaining the reputation as ' Mr no it all, thinks he is always right '... and getting the perception of arrogance - because of the way I reacted to it.

There often are issues when most of us have a basic view of how things work - yet it with some esoteric knowledge, others know that it does not actually work that way.
The big problem with esoteric knowledge, is that it requires time and effort to get to grips with ... and is beyond many of us .... I try my hardest to understand quantum physics .. but I fall way short.
Yet I have to accept that it can and is proven that newtonian physics does not work for every situation in the universe ... but the majority of us still think it does and make decisions and opinions based on that. We all need to understand that we have limits.

I passionately care about what happens to humanity ( too much so with regards to fitting in and getting on in society ) - I see suffering around me each day. I find it increasingly hard to live with myself and this world when I see things that could be fixed but due what I see as silly rules or daft ideas causing pain and death around the world.

Feeling that way obviously affects the way I represent myself .... so appolgies to those to whom it causes offence. I am in the end, only human.

Self restraint is essential to render cold reasoning of any use at all. Once you lose self restraint you give the other party a peg upon which to hang dismissal of all your efforts.

As IronClad has said elsewhere it matters not where you position yourself on the range of possible opinions. What matters most is how you interact with others in expressing your opinion.

Revealing that you consider all disagreement as arising from ignorance, lack of understanding or some other deficiency sets all you say at nought.

Many things you say I agree with. Your analytical skills are sound even if I disagree with many things you say but you so often end with a barbed comment which shows that you are oblivious to the range of legitimate alternative attitudes that can be adopted by others without them being any less knowledgable than you.

We all have different life experiences so that we attach differing weights to differing aspects of everything. Respect for your 'opponents' really is the greatest weapon you can have because if you show respect for them they will respect you and that really does give rise to doubt in their minds.

Even then it is not a 'win' situation because if their views are cogently presented they should also put doubt in your mind. Thus it is that diverse life experiences can be prevented from being a barrier to mutual understanding.

As you admit it is the social aspect with which you are weakest. What you fail to appreciate is the extent to which the social aspect is critical to true knowledge and both developing that in yourself and communicating it to others.

A little humility will work wonders for your ability to sway opinions if your reasoning is as sound as you believe it to be.

If you relax a bit and allow humour from time to time that should help. It is your own self criticism that makes it difficult for you not to apply the same often merciless analysis to others.

We are all human but it is all right to be human. Go easier on yourself and you will go easier on others and they with you.

My fee will be 200 Guineas.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Ian J

To be brutally honest many people do see EG as an arrogant intellectual bully and react in different ways. Some put him on a pedestal giving him nicknames like "Billy Science" whilst others just ignore his posting altogether citing his adoption of the nickname as further proof of his arrogance.

I am afraid that I fall into the second category and will rarely enter into a debate in which EG is participating as I don't react well to anyone trying to pound me into submission just because I disagree with their views.

I would just make the point that you should consider how others perceive you on these forums and else where with regards to bullying and having a couple of catagories about how people feel about you.

I have on and off line talked to other users of the forum and your name has cropped up on many occastions with extremely strong views about the way you choose to treat people.

I am well aware that you dislike me - ever since I argued with you.... funily enough it was because I read you as being arrogant and treating others without due respect on a particular subject that I got into that position in the first place.

Because of your work and position in the community, some people look up to you and place you on a pedastel. I know for certain that many think many others don't and consider you a problem they dislike strongly.
They won't generally express themselves openly, simply because of the fear that it potentially is avforum suicide to do so. ( we may or may not be the case for me here ).

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

You choose to post here and express how you feel about me, so it is only fair that I get to reply fairly and openly.

Apologies for being brutally frank.

Originally Posted by Ian J

citing his adoption of the nickname as further proof of his arrogance

My nick name comes from a series of books that I really enjoyed by Iain M Banks.

I randomly select the names of space craft listed in his books, simply because they all sound intersting to me ... and it's a long list.

Sorry if choosing nick names from books that actually mean little else but as a nod to the author and those that like them offends people and makes me look arrogant.

Originally Posted by Ian J

in a week or two this thread will be long forgotten but the problem will remain

My only hope and reason for posting is that even if one person at least understand a little about me and my motivations, then it was worth it.
I don't want to be a bad person or seen as bully - hardly anyone would.

I have to live each and every day with knowing that it is a character trait I have in the way I present myself and come across - one that I loathe.
If that one person who got upset or had the perception that I sit here laughing in an ivory tower knows that at the very least I did not really and truely wish them to be upset ... then at least that is some comfort.

It is very difficult to change what we are - how our minds work and the compulsions that drive and sometimes torture us.

I know mine - and have to look myself in the mirror each day.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by overkill

.

Nimby, EG has rubbed me up the wrong way at times, but I just accept that's the way he is. Doubtless I do the same to other people - and to EG. However, I do apologise if I feel I've stepped out of line, or someone takes umbrage.

You have on many occastions rubbed me up the wrong way - and I am well aware that I have done the same to you ...... being as that on some subjects we will never agree

I have passionately wanted to throttle you on those occastions, but on many others I have read your posts and seen a good person that cares about things.
Whether it comes across so or not ( and probably not knowing me ) .... I do respect you and enjoy reading what you have to say.

Thinking about myself and the way I do sometimes come across - it is often due to the complete frustration at not being able to communicate to the other person my feelings or ideas.

The arrogance or appearance of it may well be as a byproduct of my own refusal to accept that I could not have put something more plainly as it makes complete sense to me ... and holding the other person responsable for simply not getting it.

I try very hard to use discipline of thought and not jump to conclusions with many things - like when reading the paper etc. I try to stop the emotive first reaction to a head line or story staying as my take on the subject, and try to put myself on all sides and check a few facts before comming to a conclusion ....
.... I feel that I am quite often sucessful with that, but the human mind and the situations we come into shows that we can't always be controlled and show as much discipline as we wish we could - especially when we are frustrated with what is around us regardless of whether it is actually our own shortcommings or not.

[Woodywizz]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

I would just make the point that you should consider how others perceive you on these forums and else where with regards to bullying and having a couple of catagories about how people feel about you.

I have on and off line talked to other users of the forum and your name has cropped up on many occastions with extremely strong views about the way you choose to treat people.

I am well aware that you dislike me - ever since I argued with you.... funily enough it was because I read you as being arrogant and treating others without due respect on a particular subject that I got into that position in the first place.

Because of your work and position in the community, some people look up to you and place you on a pedastel. I know for certain that many think many others don't and consider you a problem they dislike strongly.

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

You choose to post here and express how you feel about me, so it is only fair that I get to reply fairly and openly.

Apologies for being brutally frank.



My nick name comes from a series of books that I really enjoyed by Iain M Banks.

I randomly select the names of space craft listed in his books, simply because they all sound intersting to me ... and it's a long list.

Sorry if choosing nick names from books that actually mean little else but as a nod to the author and those that like them offends people and makes me look arrogant.



My only hope and reason for posting is that even if one person at least understand a little about me and my motivations, then it was worth it.
I don't want to be a bad person or seen as bully - hardly anyone would.

I have to live each and every day with knowing that it is a character trait I have in the way I present myself and come across - one that I loathe.
If that one person who got upset or had the perception that I sit here laughing in an ivory tower knows that at the very least I did not really and truely wish them to be upset ... then at least that is some comfort.

It is very difficult to change what we are - how our minds work and the compulsions that drive and sometimes torture us.

I know mine - and have to look myself in the mirror each day.

Good post EG, I've read many of your threads and thought that you have come across as pompous and condescending, however I recognise that you are intellectually very strong and your use of language is something which I admire greatly. This thread does indeed give us some more insight into the man behind the posts and I, at least, thank you for that.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by andysb

I agree,
Bullying of any manner, is not a comfortable subject and certainly shouldn't be taken lightly imo.

Why does someone with better grasp of the English grammar aka swallowed a dictionary, occasionally cyber-bully the lesser mortals to a degree of insulting the offended poster for his bad grammar because maybe he can't the point of the subject across.

Asides,self-boasting is all fine with a bit of tongue-in-the-cheek thrown in, but putting yourself on a pedestal is what I call the head in the sand mentality and their is plenty of that on the Plasma forums IMO, which is why I've chosen not to venture there lately.

Just so you are aware - my post refers specifically to incidents where heated debates have taken place on emotive subjects like religion and politics.
They are the ones where a lot of posters tend to become a little over zealous .
I don't pull people up on their grammer - being dyslexic makes me rather strongly against people that do - I consider it pedantry to try to say someone s ideas are wrong simply because they made a spelling mistake.

If you are aware of my posts over the time I have been here and consider me to be a bad man from reading them - fine, but I don't want to posters to get the impression that I come on here to insult and basically flame others for fun.
At the very least I would hope that people that do read my posts have never got that idea.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by woodywizz

Good post EG, I've read many of your threads and thought that you have come across as pompous and condescending, however I recognise that you are intellectually very strong and your use of language is something which I admire greatly. This thread does indeed give us some more insight into the man behind the posts and I, at least, thank you for that.

Thank you so very much - I am honestly moved.

[Dave]

EG, I'm a little confused by your post to be honest and don't really understand what you are to trying to achieve with it.

On one hand it says to me, "I am only human and when debating a point I can be wrong" and on the other it says, "If I can't get my point of view accepted then it has obviously been misconstrued by the reader".

Again to be honest, I find it quite hard to even read all of your posts as in general they are rather long and very hard to understand what point you are trying to make in amongst all the intellectual rambling.

That's about it really, just thought I'd throw my 2p in as you made a thread about yourself.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Dave W

EG, I'm a little confused by your post to be honest and don't really understand what you are to trying to achieve with it.

On one hand it says to me, "I am only human and when debating a point I can be wrong" and on the other it says, "If I can't get my point of view accepted then it has obviously been misconstrued by the reader".

Again to be honest, I find it quite hard to even read all of your posts as in general they are rather long and very hard to understand what point you are trying to make in amongst all the intellectual rambling.

That's about it really, just thought I'd throw my 2p in as you made a thread about yourself.

Hehe

What I am trying to explain - is the possible reasons why I come across a certain way.

Originally Posted by Dave W

On one hand it says to me, "I am only human and when debating a point I can be wrong" and on the other it says, "If I can't get my point of view accepted then it has obviously been misconstrued by the reader".

That's the problem with us being human. Bare in mind that I may mess this up or you might miss understand it

Essentially - that I may sometimes blame the reader for not understanding what I am saying, when it is actually my fault for not expressing myself properly or correctly. That this is a flaw in me - and I appolgies for it and at the very least will try to control it.

It is not that I assume what I posted is 100% defacto correct and the word of law - it is that someone is not understanding what I am saying and miscontruing it.

Sometimes is it my fault, sometimes it is theirs - and being human, when I am frustrated and empassioned, it may well be that an arrogance takes over me and seeks to blame them rather than myself .... usually after makeing several attempts at explaining myself.

I really don't want to be seen as nasty or missunderstood - it upsets me as much as it may upset those that may take offence.

I am never ' always right ' - I don't for a moment believe that nor ever will.

The confusion may lay in the fact that I am discussing to many different things at once.

1 - me being fallible and comming across not as I intended purely in terms of communication.

This is what I am mainly trying to address or at least go in some way to explain and is a general point about me

2 - me getting upset when people are deliberatly obtuse on a topic that I am passionate about.

Some people do this - some people I may misstakenly get taken to be doing it.

I made a few comments about issue 2 whilst posting about a subject I am passionate about - and it came out all wrong. At least what I intended was badly written by me or badly read by others ( most likely a combination and mix of both ) -- so I was trying to clear the confusion somewhat.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

Let he without sin cast the first stone.

You choose to post here and express how you feel about me, so it is only fair that I get to reply fairly and openly.

The big difference is that I don't choose to bare my soul to the world as you have done here and I certainly don't start threads asking people to make allowances for me.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Ian J

The big difference is that I don't choose to bare my soul to the world as you have done here and I certainly don't start threads asking people to make allowances for me.

I don't like you as a person either Ian - but thats life isn't it.
Maybe I am making a mistake about my perceptions of you purely based on how you represent yourself within the limited scope of an internet avatar.
Possibly I would think differently if I knew more about the person behind the posts and actions.

I don't want allowances, forgiveness or chocolates.
I have been portrayed by others ( yourself included ) as what I would essentially describe as not a very nice person.

Some people have thick skins and don't care what others think about them.
Myself I am probably oversensitive about it.

As people have mentioned - people see a nick name / a characature of who is posting from what they have said and how they came across.
Because I genuinely dislike the way I am portrayed - I at least tried to fill in some of the blanks and flesh out what others no about me. That way they have more information with which to go on when deciding what they think of me.
It is purely what they think of me as a real person rather than as an avatar on a forum as to the motive of my post.

I am guilty of representing myself that way - due to my character flaws, ego and other fallibilities.
I made mistakes both in how I put myself across - and how I read other people.
I still make mistakes and always will, but I will try to limit them.

At the very least they can dislike me knowing more about the actual person.

[Nimby]

EG

Brevity is almost always desirable.

The alternative appears wasteful of other's time.

Firefox (post 2.0) offers a free spelling checker.

There is even an English version of English but it seems recalcitrant.

[signs]

Originally Posted by Dave W

EG, I'm a little confused by your post to be honest and don't really understand what you are to trying to achieve with it.

On one hand it says to me, "I am only human and when debating a point I can be wrong" and on the other it says, "If I can't get my point of view accepted then it has obviously been misconstrued by the reader".

Again to be honest, I find it quite hard to even read all of your posts as in general they are rather long and very hard to understand what point you are trying to make in amongst all the intellectual rambling.

That's about it really, just thought I'd throw my 2p in as you made a thread about yourself.

i totally agree....

we need more threads like my Argos one

[Ethics Gradient]

Some topics of discussion and issues are far more complex than many people want to think.

To understand them and come to a more accurate conclusion, often it requires a lot of explaination.

Discussing how to fix traffic congestion - with an actual solution, or how a proposed solution is wrong for example take a considerable amount of thought and dialog.

The world we live in is incredibly complex and any meaningful discussion about it that actually intends to be helpful will sometimes require annoyingly long amounts of information.

It is difficult to have a light conversation about empassioned and important issues.

At least that is my understanding of it. The impression I get is that is seem to be socially unfasionable to strive for knowledge and learning. That we should all be busy buying things and watching celebrity interviews instead.

So I am already on the back foot when it comes to being popular ... and my personality seems to make it worse.

[SeanT]

I'm going to put my hands up and say that I was the straw that broke the camels back in making someone leave the forums for good - however I was just winding the bloke up and a quick browse of my other posts (especially my drunken ones) would have soon indicated to anyone that you take what I say, and what anyone hiding behind the internet (despite the fact that many of us publish our full names, occupations and general locality to anyone who reads our profiles) says with a rather large pinch of salt - there is no disclaimer on my posts, even the slightly offensive ones, because I say what I think at the time, and often regret saying it later anyway, so a disclaimer against things I'm ashamed off seems silly - anyway, back to watching us lose the rugger....

[deanym]

Many posts by EG and IanJ come across as arrogant, pompous and attempting superiority.

BUT, I know I have as well and probably just about anyone who has posted anything they feel passionately about.

We may not like certain members and their views, but remember, the anonymous nature of the forum rarely tells us what each are like face to face in real life.

Previous to the forum golf days, it was hard to gauge what the guys were like. now when I read their posts, I can see the smile and twinkle in their humour, whereas without knowing them, it may be misunderstood.

Maybe we need to see each other face to face more to affect each other the respect we deserve.

Until this is possible, take praise with a pinch of salt, and shrug off any criticism.

[Nimby]

EG

Do you suppose it is your duty to publish your learned papers here?

Do you consider it obligatory that others read them?

If you cannot compress your ideas into a bite-sized whole then you do the reader a distinct disservice.

Your readers owe you nothing.

You owe them simple respect the moment you touch the keyboard.

To do otherwise it to deprive them of a small fraction of their lives.

Which, when added up, makes you a time thief.

And nobody likes a thief.

More thought. Less dialogue. Much less self-pity. Smile often.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Nimby

EG

Do you suppose it is your duty to publish your learned papers here?

Do you consider it obligatory that others read them?

If you cannot compress your ideas into a bite-sized whole then you do the reader a distinct disservice.

Your readers owe you nothing.

You owe them simple respect the moment you touch the keyboard.

To do otherwise it to deprive them of a small fraction of their lives.

Which, when added up, makes you a time thief.

And nobody likes a thief.

More thought. Less dialogue. Much less self-pity. Smile often.

I understand the point you make - however, the same could be said for most posts by most people.

Be it overly long but trying to mean something or quite short but saying absolutely nothing.
Not all posts of any length mean anything worth while and could be considers as you say ' a waste of peoples time '.
Does a thread where posts amount pretty much to ' Isn't milk brilliant ' count that way - if so take time to look around you.

Sometimes over simplification can be wrong as well.

I didn't force you to read my thread - nor to reply multiple times to it. Only the poor mods deserve an apology for having to read it as part of their job.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

You have on many occastions rubbed me up the wrong way - and I am well aware that I have done the same to you ...... being as that on some subjects we will never agree

I have passionately wanted to throttle you on those occastions, but on many others I have read your posts and seen a good person that cares about things.
Whether it comes across so or not ( and probably not knowing me ) .... I do respect you and enjoy reading what you have to say.

Thinking about myself and the way I do sometimes come across - it is often due to the complete frustration at not being able to communicate to the other person my feelings or ideas.

The arrogance or appearance of it may well be as a byproduct of my own refusal to accept that I could not have put something more plainly as it makes complete sense to me ... and holding the other person responsable for simply not getting it.

I try very hard to use discipline of thought and not jump to conclusions with many things - like when reading the paper etc. I try to stop the emotive first reaction to a head line or story staying as my take on the subject, and try to put myself on all sides and check a few facts before comming to a conclusion ....
.... I feel that I am quite often sucessful with that, but the human mind and the situations we come into shows that we can't always be controlled and show as much discipline as we wish we could - especially when we are frustrated with what is around us regardless of whether it is actually our own shortcommings or not.

Well, that is a little worrying, but I'm sure my wife would agree with that sentiment at times!

Yes, there have been occasions when your posts have wound me up, but tbh not as much as some others on here ever could (and have). As you say, we don't agree on many issues, but I really don't have a problem with that as your arguments are coherent and usually well thought out. As such it makes it much more interesting trying to counter them.

In all honesty, in the forum scheme of things, I respect your views far more, even if I don't often accept them, than the 'hang and flog em', the 'govt is to blame for everything' merchants who just read the 'daily inflame' and then come on here to rant. I'm sure though, that their wives view that as a blessing......

[shodan]

EG, I've been on here for a few years with you so in a strange way I guess we go back a bit... Whilst I've never found you to be mean or rude or unpleasant (but damn, you are like a dog with a stick sometimes if one of your favourite subjects comes up!) I have often thought that, and I don't want to say that you think too much or care too much about things close to you, but that I don't care as much about other people's thoughts and opinions as you do.
You love a good discussion and love sharing people's opinions and putting yours across but I do feel you might help yourself if you realised that other peoples opinions are just that and they don't actually effect the quality of your life so its ok to just nod and say, "I disagree but hey ho, did you think England were outclassed at the rugby tonight"... Or words to that effect... I certainly don't mean any offence by this, because I don't think my opinion matters or effects the quality of your life!!!

[Nimby]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

Sometimes over simplification can be wrong as well.

I didn't force you to read my thread - nor to reply multiple times to it.

Who mentioned simplification? It is your job to put your thoughts over to your target audience in brief, concise terms.

An untidy mind needs constant discipline. Yours needs a thrashing, Sir!

I am a compulsive reader.

Is it not my duty to improve you?

Would you prefer my answers ran to a foolscap side?

Would that then make them more understandable, more intuitive, more articulate or better?

Do you not yourself attempt, in your own small way, to educate those in the shadow of your own lofty intellect?

Does he, who uses verbosity to explain the obvious, not seek complexity where none exists? Except in his own mind?

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by shodan

EG, I've been on here for a few years with you so in a strange way I guess we go back a bit... Whilst I've never found you to be mean or rude or unpleasant (but damn, you are like a dog with a stick sometimes if one of your favourite subjects comes up!) I have often thought that, and I don't want to say that you think too much or care too much about things close to you, but that I don't care as much about other people's thoughts and opinions as you do.
You love a good discussion and love sharing people's opinions and putting yours across but I do feel you might help yourself if you realised that other peoples opinions are just that and they don't actually effect the quality of your life so its ok to just nod and say, "I disagree but hey ho, did you think England were outclassed at the rugby tonight"... Or words to that effect... I certainly don't mean any offence by this, because I don't think my opinion matters or effects the quality of your life!!!

Funnily enough I was on the phone to my mum earlier who constantly worries about me.
She was worried about the fact that I do have a habit of a she puts it ' thinking too deeply ' about things.
Mainly because when I do I get upset, emotional or depressed about things.

The thing is, I never want to give up thinking deeply about things - for good or bad it is who I am.
However, I am hopeing that I can finally get into cognitive behavioral therapy which my doctor has been trying for some time to get organised.
.... with the aim of changing how I emotionally react to things rather than trying to brain wash myself into never thinking about anything.

I do hope it helps - not just because it may help me come across better here - but because it may help me deal with that big nasty thing called life and the real world.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Nimby

Does he, who uses verbosity to explain the obvious, not seek complexity where none exists? Except in his own mind?

It may well sometimes be in my own mind .... but I am so sure that somethings can not be easily simplified even if we wish they could.

It may be down to the medium and pace of the internet forum converstation - if I were trying to write a dissertation, I would spend time to make it as readable as possible.

Surprisingly I do try and make my posts legible and readable - but down to the way posts work in an converstational manner, it does run the risk of being far more patchy.

I am probably just not good at getting things out in a conscise manner in a short space of time and off the cuff and even with practice, it may be that its the best I can do .... like I know I can kick a football and with practice get a bit better ... but still be rubbish at it