Pure Evil

bluesilver · 30-04-2007, 10:59 AM

I don't know of anyone else has read about the young girl who is to be executed in iran for a crime she didn't commit, but this story is something that has touched me and made me completely furious. She basically admitted to killing someone when she was a child to cover up for her boyfriend. He convinced her to confess because he said she was under age so couldn't be convicted. Well they convicted her and sentenced her to death, even tho they boyfriend admits he did it and Amnesty carried out an investigation that proves she couldn't have commited the crime because she just wasn't strong enough and was even the wrong hand! But her last appeal has been rejected and she is to be hung in public by a crane..

If there are any Iranian's on this board, please, explain to me how life is valued to lowly in your country and how this kind of thing can happen. The west isn't perfect, far from it, but when you have these kinds of things going on, how can you expect us to understand your ways and your beliefs??

The worst thing is that Iran signed up to the treaty saying they wouldn't execute children, but what they do is arrest, charge and imprison children and just wait for them to reach 'adulthood' and then hang them! It is barbaric and evil and I hope the people who hand out these punishments and those who carry out the hangings burn in hell for their actions.

And she isn't even the only case.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...php?storyid=80

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5217424.stm

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...p?storyid=8000

http://www.stopfundamentalism.com/in...=277&Itemid=71

http://www.iran-press-service.com/ip...a_161204.shtml

Please go to the Amnesty internation website below to be part of a petition to try and save her.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_de...asp?ActionID=9

*pixie003* · 30-04-2007, 11:26 AM

oh no thats horrible makes me feel sick just thinking of what that child is going through

Setenza · 30-04-2007, 11:48 AM

I am not defending Iran's actions by any means.

But you have partially hit the nail on the head.

This all comes down to rapidly different cultural values. These are shaped by religious doctrine.

As a result the children will die. In Iran's eyes they are justified in doing what they're doing.

You take a shocked perspective. Fine, I understand that.

Then you completely blow an semblance of a credible argument by saying

Quote:

It is barbaric and evil and I hope the people who hand out these punishments and those who carry out the hangings burn in hell for their actions.

The concept of inherent evil and hell are just other instances of medieval Christian theological doctrine which in my opinion is no better than the dogma that shapes modern Iran.

Bottom line is you can't do anything about it. Neither can Amnesty. You can't invade a country and try and force upon them a culture that it alien to them. It doesn't work.

The solution? You leave them alone. Iran's people will some day change their own regime.

You must separate church and state to have a truly free culture. Religions are mainly monotheistic. They usually have rules that are considered absolute. Therefore this often represses free thinking and dissent.

Remember, some countries are only doing now what the inquisition did 500 years ago.

It is the doom of men that they forget.

bluesilver · 30-04-2007, 12:00 PM

I'm not actually that Christian. If at all. So the hell I was referring to was more of a case of IF there is one, I think these people deserve to go there.

To me it is just another reason why Religion causes more problems than it solves. I don't believe you need to follow a religion to be good, people often use religion to carry out their wishes by either bending it or following it without question.

At the end of the day, children are being hung up by cranes until they die. I don't see how any good, caring or intelligent person can think this is right.

And I wish people would rise up against this kind of thing but they are too scared to. After all, would you stand up for someone you don't know and risk death, knowing that your death is unlikely to change anything?

Religion might have good points but it's doctrine has killed millions of people. That is all I know.
And personally, I don't know of any other single thing that has had that effect on this world.

la gran siete · 30-04-2007, 7:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xusia Of Delos

I am not defending Iran's actions by any means.

But you have partially hit the nail on the head.

This all comes down to rapidly different cultural values. These are shaped by religious doctrine.

As a result the children will die. In Iran's eyes they are justified in doing what they're doing.

You take a shocked perspective. Fine, I understand that.

Then you completely blow an semblance of a credible argument by saying

The concept of inherent evil and hell are just other instances of medieval Christian theological doctrine which in my opinion is no better than the dogma that shapes modern Iran.

Bottom line is you can't do anything about it. Neither can Amnesty. You can't invade a country and try and force upon them a culture that it alien to them. It doesn't work.

The solution? You leave them alone. Iran's people will some day change their own regime.

You must separate church and state to have a truly free culture. Religions are mainly monotheistic. They usually have rules that are considered absolute. Therefore this often represses free thinking and dissent.

Remember, some countries are only doing now what the inquisition did 500 years ago.

It is the doom of men that they forget.

whilst I agree with your sentiments anger and revulsion are perfectly understandable just as the desire to right a wrong is.

bluesilver · 30-04-2007, 7:47 PM

to right a wrong?

which 'wrong' are you referring to?

johntheexpat · 30-04-2007, 7:52 PM

After her execution Rezai said her punishment was not execution but he had her executed for her “sharp tongue”.
(taken from your first link)

There will come a time when the people themselves will put a stop to this kind of 'justice'. But until that time all we can do is help publicise it by doing what you have done and tread a careful path between our cultures. So, well done bluesilver, for bringing it to our attention, you won't save the lastest child, but maybe somewhere down the line your posting will make a difference.

*RMCF* · 30-04-2007, 8:03 PM

This is also loads of 'pure evil' in the West.

Do you think every person put to death in the US was guilty? Or do you even think putting another human being to death is acceptable?

What about carpet bombing innocent civilians and killing tens of thousands of children in an unjust war. Is that not the height of pure evil?

krish · 30-04-2007, 8:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

If there are any Iranian's on this board, please, explain to me how life is valued to lowly in your country and how this kind of thing can happen. The west isn't perfect, far from it, but when you have these kinds of things going on, how can you expect us to understand your ways and your beliefs??

I believe the ordinary Iranian is just as disgusted by this as you and I are; ex-pat Iranians probably more so

And yes the west isn't perfect ... countless miscarriages of justice or mitigation with (mainly black) people sent to the chair or lethally injected in the US

la gran siete · 30-04-2007, 8:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

to right a wrong?

which 'wrong' are you referring to?

When someone suffers an injustice as these poor young girls have, its quite natural to want to "right a wrong" even though its completely impractical , impossible and likely to make a situation worse. What happens in Iran regarding so many is nothing short of barbaric as its is ain many other troublked parts oif the world such as Zimababwe.One can only hope that the people overthrow these tyranical regimes

Geofbob · 30-04-2007, 8:50 PM

Sorry, but I don't fully understand the point RMCF and Krish are trying to make. They appear to be saying that just because injustices - including unlawful killing by the State - occur in the West, a Westerner such as bluesilver should not condemn Iran for this horrible event. They should bear in mind the dictum usually attibuted to Edmond Burke that "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." And even if there is little that most "good men" can do, at least they can speak or write, as bluesilver did.

*RMCF* · 30-04-2007, 8:56 PM

Bottom line is that terrible things happen all over the world.

As you say, little we can do will affect the outcome of the girl in Iran. But that is their way.

My point was that we do our own barbaric things, so why go to Iran to quote an example. There are examples all around us, and loads are carried out by the so-called 'good' people.

I am not trying to justify Iranian law. I too think this story is terrible, but tell me what I could do to save her and I'll do it. Its just that there is nothing that can be done, except if there is an uprising against it from within.

While is is considered acceptable in Iran it will continue to happen.

bluesilver · 30-04-2007, 11:32 PM

I am against capital punishment full stop and yes, in the west we are guilty of more than enough death. Both in our nations and in the ones we invade or have invaded.
So yes, I could have mentioned about the ones at our own nations hands and not Irans', but injustice is injustice and as far as I'm aware, we abolished capital punishment many years ago and that is where my arguments starts and finishes. I didn't want to get involved in invasions because that is a whole different affair. This is internal justice within a country, killing children, mentally ill children too. The US has at times exectuted the mentally ill and the poor, but at least children are not executed routinely.

I am not a racist by any means, but how am I supposed to feel kinship with another civilisation that strings children up by a crane until they die? Because it is their belief and I should accept that because I should not judge or think badly of them? I should respect them no matter how repugnant their actions are?
I think the world is full of people too eager to murder, in anyone's or anything's name. Be that in the west or the east. But I don't think we have hung young people for words they said or other 'crimes' they commited as children.

I don't think it is surprising there is racism in this world, especially religious racism, by every religion, when people see murder being commited so wantonly and without compassion or sense.

So, if me not understanding exactly WHY this person has to hang, or others like her, shows a lack of respect for another nation then I'm sorry, I do not respect that nation. Life should be nurtured and protected, not wiped out like this.
And if those responsible for taking such lives can live with themselves, I'm not sure what that says about their beliefs or their culture.
We in the West are not perfect, FAR from it, both historically and culturally, but there would be riots on the streets if any child was executed in this country.
Because on every single level, hanging children is just wrong and it is evil.

And if we ever can understand it, or understand Iranian's justification for it, I guess the question that is left to us would be "what would we have become if we can understand that the hanging of children is the right thing to do?

What kind of person would we be?

If God is up there, I wonder if he can see the irony of all this. You have me, someone not that religious, saying that life is sacred. And yet there are countries killing people because of their religious/cultural beliefs.

If it wasn't so tragic you'd have to laugh.

bjd · 30-04-2007, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

If there are any Iranian's on this board, please, explain to me how life is valued to lowly in your country and how this kind of thing can happen. The west isn't perfect, far from it, but when you have these kinds of things going on, how can you expect us to understand your ways and your beliefs??

Substitute Israelis for Iranians, and soldiers using Palestinian children for target practice for hanging children from cranes and ask the same question.

**IronGiant** · 01-05-2007, 12:04 AM

OK this is an emotive subject and understandably so, but this thread is only going to go one way from here on in.

Please follow the Original Posters advise and go here if you want to make your mark:

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_de...asp?ActionID=9

Dave, Mod.

bjd · 01-05-2007, 12:13 AM

I fully agree with the point of the OP. However, I found the part of the post which I quoted to be a gross generalisation and an insult to Iranians. I posted my reply merely to highlight that we can ask the same sort of questions of a lot of countries if we choose.

Brian

**IronGiant** · 01-05-2007, 12:48 AM

fair point and a safe one to close the subject on, which I am not doing just yet, BTW

Dave, Mod

bluesilver · 01-05-2007, 3:11 AM

I'm sorry if you feel I generalised about Iranians. If I did it is because of my bewilderment of the situation in your? country.

Yes, other countries commit crimes but for you to talk about other countries like Israel is a bit like saying "why talk about us killing kids when others do it?".

And yes, I could have mentioned a lot of countries, but I mentioned Iran, not because I had anything against Iranians, but because this story particularly touched me.

So, have there been mass demonstrations against these atrocities by the general public? How do they feel about what is going on?

What have the general population done to stop these things? Or does the general population think that it is ok, or...what?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, really, I want to understand.

I would have thought that if the people of Iran wanted this behaviour stopped, they'd protest on mass. They would have stopped this a long time ago but they don't and I don't understand why IF they want it stopped.

So what does the general population feel and do about all this? What do they do to save these children? Anything? Nothing much?
Or do they think that it is ok to hang the young and mentally ill?

Again, I'm not trying to cause a fight, I just put the facts to you as have been reported and hope that you as an Iranian? can help me and probably a lot of people understand how the hell this can happen in a civilised society.

Mods, I know this is an emotive subject and I hope we don't overstep the mark in any way. I would like, and I think others would like, to know more about what is going on in Iran and some here seem to have some background knowledge, and that is why I asked this last question.
It wasn't to cause a fight, but to try and find out the situation over there.
But it is difficult to not cause offence when asking these questions on the facts, when the facts are actually pretty offensive..
I hope we can have a sensible and adult discussion about all this.
And I hope this thread can go on for a while and not be closed..

Mep · 01-05-2007, 6:10 AM

Quote:

Mods, I know this is an emotive subject and I hope we don't overstep the mark in any way

despite the clear potential (and tradition) this thread has stayed well within the lines of reasoned debate thus far with some very good points being raised in a very rational way.

indianwells · 01-05-2007, 6:38 AM

We in the West may find this case evil, I certainly do but in other countries it is their firmly held belief that it is the correct way to do things and with such diverse cultures some countries will never see eye to eye.
We don't have to respect other countries laws and customs, and indeed we are free to condemn them but apart from invasion and war there is not a great deal we can do about it. We cannot go around the world forcing independant nations to bend to our own values, although Blair and Bush seem to be having a bloody good go at it.
This particular case is very distressing, and to my mind completely against everything I believe in, but that's my point, my beliefs are of no concern to a judicial system in Iran and I doubt they ever will be. Sad.

la gran siete · 01-05-2007, 7:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

What have the general population done to stop these things? Or does the general population think that it is ok, or...what?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, really, I want to understand.

I would have thought that if the people of Iran wanted this behaviour stopped, they'd protest on mass. They would have stopped this a long time ago but they don't and I don't understand why IF they want it stopped.

So what does the general population feel and do about all this? What do they do to save these children? Anything? Nothing much?
Or do they think that it is ok to hang the young and mentally ill?

..

maybe the Iranian people dopnt know enough about these atrocoties taking place .Its a large country without the freedom of the press that we have. I expect people also live their lives in great fear of the authorities.having myself come from a country which was under the cosh of a military regime for some years I knwo how we take our freedoms for granted and how others live in perpetual fear.

As for comparing Iran with the Palistinian question there is one big fundemental difference as this is about whet the Iranian authorities are doing to their own people. In the name of what?? Sharia law?Also we shouldnt be drawing comparisons with others wrong is wrong wherever it may happen. Most of us acknowledge Iraq was a massive mistake for which our leaders are partly culpable. Zimbabwe leadership is also a massive wrong as is Burma's and North Korea.

krish · 01-05-2007, 8:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geofbob

Sorry, but I don't fully understand the point RMCF and Krish are trying to make. They appear to be saying that just because injustices - including unlawful killing by the State - occur in the West, a Westerner such as bluesilver should not condemn Iran for this horrible event.

Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me

I just wanted to say that we shouldn't presume the Iranian people support this barbarism; since the sentence "The west isn't perfect, far from it, but when you have these kinds of things going on, how can you expect us to understand your ways and your beliefs??" seemed a tad judgemental about the people; rather than attacking the real perpetrators i.e. ayatollahs, judiciary, govt and their barbaric Sharia system. I have past and present ex-pat Iranian colleagues, who are horrified by this, and it seems like a similar situation to Zimbabwe, whereby a supposedly democratically elected govt (vote for who you want, but Mugabe or the Ayatollah approved Islamist party will still get in) craps on the people ... persecuting a significant liberal/opposition movement, and whipping up hysteria and hatred amongst a sizeable easily-led uneducated section of the population.

.. Anyhow, subsequent posts by RMCF, bluesilver and bjd I fully agree with

bluesilver · 01-05-2007, 9:32 AM

I know it may sound stereotypical and judgemental of a whole nation, but at the same time, it IS YOUR nation that is carrying out these particular acts.
If you want to change it, it is up to you to change it. After all, I think we all know the devastation caused by us lot going in...

So yes, stereotyping is dangerous and often utterly wrong, BUT, if children are being hung, who is to blame? Just the people in charge or do the population have a very big responsibility in this also?
I don't live in Iran, I don't know the oppression you obviously can experience there, but at the same time, if you don't fight to preserve children's lives...children being strung up by a crane to die, some taking 45 minutes, even when you can see it is wrong, what does that say about the people and it's beliefs?
I'm trying not to judge your ways, but at the end of the day, children are being executed and I would worry about the kind of people, or even the kind of religion, that says that this is ok.

And equally, I would question how 'good' the general public can be if they don't organise and fight this utterly barbaric act. Ok, it might be dangerous, it might be hard, but surely no matter what the personal cost is, if people won't fight to save the lives of children being executed, what is the point of them being on this Earth?
Sorry, but I think that it is a basic human need to protect children and I think most of us, if push came to shove, would sacrifice our lives to save a child from certain death. So I'm not sure what this says about people who don't try over and over to stop what happens in their own country.

So yes, generalising is dangerous, but at the same children are being executed in your country and I don't see the people in your country throwing out it's government or staging mass demonstrations.
And if the general population aren't fighting this then I think it is safe to say that the Iranian people are also at least partly to blame for every single child dangling from a crane. And if seeing a child dangling lifelessly doesn't make your people throw your government out, then again, what does that say about the people of Iran?

johntheexpat · 01-05-2007, 9:45 AM

[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml"]

perhaps stories like these may persuade the 40% of muslims who want sharia law in parts of this country to think again.

krish · 01-05-2007, 10:02 AM

bluesilver, I think you may be under the impression that I am Iranian and Muslim, when I am neither - I just have past and present colleagues who have painted me a vivid picture of the situation

Any non-Islamist / liberal / progressive / secular opposition movements and organised revolts are clamped down on ruthlessly; the media is govt controlled, so not everyone is aware of atrocities. Ex-pats who fled under the original Islamic revolution of '79 when the corrupt Shah was overthrown, have and continue to be threatened overseas. It was a fairly liberal, you could say Westernised, country; highly educated men and women in science and engineering (where I have met or worked with Iranians); and journalists, writers, poets etc. Many of the latter have been murdered; and opposition movements are based overseas ... it is mainly brave Iranians who are blowing the whistle on these atrocities and alerting Amnesty International and the international community.

The judiciary is based on their Sharia law - something that is not necessarily connected to the teachings of Islam; someone else here with the background and knowledge would be able to cover this topic.

krish · 01-05-2007, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johntheexpat

[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml"]

perhaps stories like these may persuade the 40% of muslims who want sharia law in parts of this country to think again.

I often wonder how accurate such polls are ... obviously that leaves the possibility that the figure could be much higher (since some would not want to admit to supporting Sharia law) or could be much lower as there may have been a concerted (internet) campaign to get mainly radicalised muslims to vote in the poll and vote in favour of Sharia law.

bluesilver · 01-05-2007, 10:13 AM

Hi Krish, I wasn't assuming you were Iranian or Muslim. As you say, I think there are others on here that are and it's to those who I have made my points to really.

From what you say, yes, it does sound terrible what goes on, but I think most people would risk their lives to save children from these kinds of atrocities.
Ultimately, I do believe that the Iranian people are at least partly to blame because they witness what happens and do nothing or little because of fear for their own lives. As I said before, I think most of us would sacrifice our own life to save a child from certain death.
I can understand the people being fearful, but at the end of the day, children are being executed in their own country for 'crimes' and they don't stop it, any way they can. In my book, that makes them at least partly responsible for their own governments actions.
Afterall, if the people don't stop it's own government killing children, who is to blame for it continuing?

shahedz · 01-05-2007, 11:33 AM

Bluesilver it's very easy to be judegemental when you are sitting in the comfort of your home in a great country that doesn't have such a highly corrupt goverment where you do not need to fear for you life should you speak up.
But with out living in Iran or knowing the pressures the Iranians face i think you are not in a position to be so judgemental.
One article has stirred up emotions in you and with out doing any further research you think you have Iran and all its people "sussed".

I think your attitude in stereotyping every Iranian is disgraceful ( I am not Iranian) .

Educate yourself

The past and present Iran is not summed up in one article.

shahedz · 01-05-2007, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

I can understand the people being fearful, ?

No you can't, live in Iran and experience the same pressures and then tell us if you can still understand people being fearful

bjd · 01-05-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluesilver

I'm sorry if you feel I generalised about Iranians. If I did it is because of my bewilderment of the situation in your? country.

Yes, other countries commit crimes but for you to talk about other countries like Israel is a bit like saying "why talk about us killing kids when others do it?".

And yes, I could have mentioned a lot of countries, but I mentioned Iran, not because I had anything against Iranians, but because this story particularly touched me.

So, have there been mass demonstrations against these atrocities by the general public? How do they feel about what is going on?

What have the general population done to stop these things? Or does the general population think that it is ok, or...what?

I'm not trying to cause an argument, really, I want to understand.

I would have thought that if the people of Iran wanted this behaviour stopped, they'd protest on mass. They would have stopped this a long time ago but they don't and I don't understand why IF they want it stopped.

So what does the general population feel and do about all this? What do they do to save these children? Anything? Nothing much?
Or do they think that it is ok to hang the young and mentally ill?

Again, I'm not trying to cause a fight, I just put the facts to you as have been reported and hope that you as an Iranian? can help me and probably a lot of people understand how the hell this can happen in a civilised society.

Mods, I know this is an emotive subject and I hope we don't overstep the mark in any way. I would like, and I think others would like, to know more about what is going on in Iran and some here seem to have some background knowledge, and that is why I asked this last question.
It wasn't to cause a fight, but to try and find out the situation over there.
But it is difficult to not cause offence when asking these questions on the facts, when the facts are actually pretty offensive..
I hope we can have a sensible and adult discussion about all this.
And I hope this thread can go on for a while and not be closed..

I have already posted my opinion, so no point repeating it. I only post this to inform you that my mother was from Tunbridge Wells and my father from Belfast. They met when he was serving in the British army in 1942. Neither were Iranian, nor do I have any connection, whether through blood or marriage, with any Iranian. I have never visited Iran, nor, to my knowledge, ever had a conversation with an Iranian.