[Silver Arrow]

Hi Guys

I was made aware of this "No 10" referendum petition. Please consider signing.


>After 16 days of being ignored, delayed, blocked and 2 rants later, my
>EU Referendum petition has finally gone live on the PM's site.
>
>Please consider signing, as we now have just 9 days until Blair signs
>us over to a federalised EU.
>
>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ReferendumNOW
>
>Email this to everyone: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ReferendumNOW/
>
>We only need 200 signatories to guarantee Blair's forced public
response.
>
>Please spread the word regardless of your particular stance . Many
>people dont know what's entailed by this and a referendum is the only
>fair way to get the pro's n CON's of this issue, debated in the public
eye.

[Mep]

Great, another petition!

I had this emailed to me earlier as well so I'm sure the 200 signatures wont be an issue

[Silver Arrow]

Originally Posted by mep

Great, another petition!

I had this emailed to me earlier as well so I'm sure the 200 signatures wont be an issue

I apprerciate they can get a bit boring, but this is my first....

Maybe last, you never know!

Cheers any way

Andy

[Dave]

We all love petitions in GC.

[Logo Hater]

Originally Posted by Daerve

We all love petitions in GC.

Yes! but some are really worth signing, and this is definately one of them.

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by Silver Arrow

Hi Guys

I was made aware of this "No 10" referendum petition. Please consider signing.


>After 16 days of being ignored, delayed, blocked and 2 rants later, my
>EU Referendum petition has finally gone live on the PM's site.
>
>Please consider signing, as we now have just 9 days until Blair signs
>us over to a federalised EU.
>
>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ReferendumNOW
>
>Email this to everyone: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ReferendumNOW/
>
>We only need 200 signatories to guarantee Blair's forced public
response.
>
>Please spread the word regardless of your particular stance . Many
>people dont know what's entailed by this and a referendum is the only
>fair way to get the pro's n CON's of this issue, debated in the public
eye.

Absolutely no way as i am totally in favour of the EC.Its l'Europe uni for meIn fact i am thinking of starting my own petition labelled "Lets make all our citizens learn another European language"

[overkill]

No thanks. I may not be keen on the original treaty, but I'm about as sympathetic with the pro-referendum movement as I am even with the new treaty proposals. As the second treaty has to be signed by all European nations, and two have voted against it in it's first form, then the EU cannot bind us to anything. Hence statements like 'slaves to the EU' and handing over our 'democratic rights to Europe' smack of the sort of ignorance we should never trust to a referendum.

Count me out.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Logo Hater

Yes! but some are really worth signing, and this is definately one of them.

In your opinion maybe it is. Unfortunately in mine it isn't. That's politics for you.

I'm not in any way knocking the OP, my above comment was just me trying to be a funny git.

[Dave]

I wasn't going to get involved in a political discussion but **** it, I'm with Overkill and LGS.

I really don't understand the fear from a lot of people about the UK and Europe. The propoganda spewed out by some parties is laughable and they never comment on how beneficial it is for us to be part of the EU.

I'm not directing this at anyone in this thread but a lot of people are very ill informed about national issues such as this and only get their information from the gutter press.

A referendum simply means the press end up with their own result and I for one would prefer our fully informed, democratically elected representatives to decide on the issue for me as is the normal practice in a democracy.

[dBrowne]

Of course, none of our informed, democratically elected representatives have ever had to genuflect and curtsy before our media barons.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by dBrowne

Of course, none of our informed, democratically elected representatives have ever had to genuflect and curtsy before our media barons.

Touche.

[indianwells]

I'd come out tommorow given the choice but there you go....

[Jammyb]

You should feel free to express your sexuality, no matter what it may be, but it seems a little off topic.

I'm against referendums in general as the average person is an idiot and nowhere near well informed enough to make a decision on something like this. If it was down to me they wouldn't be allowed to vote at general elections without passing some kind of basic comprehension test. Voting for Big Brother and X-Factor would be their lot.

[Mep]

somebody had to say it!

[stealther]

Originally Posted by Jammyb

You should feel free to express your sexuality, no matter what it may be, but it seems a little off topic.

I'm against referendums in general as the average person is an idiot and nowhere near well informed enough to make a decision on something like this. If it was down to me they wouldn't be allowed to vote at general elections without passing some kind of basic comprehension test. Voting for Big Brother and X-Factor would be their lot.

I can understand your point of view but I hate the fact that the government decides what is best for me. I never voted in this government so nothing they do is for me. I may be an ill informed person when it comes to Europe all I have to go on is a gut feeling and my feeling is I don’t like decisions being made at a national level so making them at European level seems worse.

PS I don’t think the people you worry about voting ever vote other than for extortionist phone in shows like crap factor and big blubber!

[Bat-man]

Originally Posted by Logo Hater

Yes! but some are really worth signing, and this is definately one of them.

I'm in two minds about this one.
I detest the possible reality of an unelected Euro 'super state'.
But I also fear for the UK if left to its own devices.

[indianwells]

Originally Posted by Bat-man

I'm in two minds about this one.
I detest the possible reality of an unelected Euro 'super state'.
But I also fear for the UK if left to its own devices.

I'm sure we'd manage,we have for the last thousand years. Two of the richest nations in Europe,Norway and Switzerland aren't in "the club" but still have all the trading benefits. I think the EU have just signed an agreement with Mexico to give them the same trading rules that we have to obey. Of course they won't have to pay 40 odd million a day to enjoy these benefits.
http://speakout.co.uk/what-the-eu-costs.aspx

[Bat-man]

Originally Posted by indianwells

I'm sure we'd manage,we have for the last thousand years.

I was speaking regarding basic human rights rather than the economy.

[la gran siete]

Must admit my reaction is pretty much at gut level . i odnmt underatsn all this Europhobia which is doing the rounds.At the end of the day it seems that as we ARE part of Europe it would best serve our interests to fight for the EC that best serves our needs rather than just back out of it.
On the other hand can someone please explain why the richest countries in terms of GDI are Norway ,Switzerland and Iceland all out of the EC?Is it because they have small populations and whatever they export bring enough riches for them?

What I detest are negative decissions based entirely on fear - fear of johny foreigner, fear of losing our national identity, fear of being had by "them". Its just so lame isnt it

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by indianwells

I'm sure we'd manage,we have for the last thousand years. Two of the richest nations in Europe,Norway and Switzerland aren't in "the club" but still have all the trading benefits. I think the EU have just signed an agreement with Mexico to give them the same trading rules that we have to obey. Of course they won't have to pay 40 odd million a day to enjoy these benefits.
http://speakout.co.uk/what-the-eu-costs.aspx

Things have moved on somewhat. For starters we havent an empire to keep us rich anymore. Before that millions lived in penury and servitude

[Jammyb]

Perhaps they just want to keep all the Polish out?*












*I can't understand why, they're charming people with a fine culinary heritage of pickling stuff in tins...

[Steven]

"Forced public response"?

Do they mean an instant 2 sec dismissal in the press, only for Blair to carry on regardless?

What do people think these petitions will do exactly? Just look at the road charging one Its an elected government, but they can do what they want feel like until 2009/2010

[KeithO]

Originally Posted by stealther

I can understand your point of view but I hate the fact that the government decides what is best for me. I never voted in this government so nothing they do is for me.

Unfortunately that's democracy for you. You can't pick and choose which facets of government policy you adhere to - it's all or nothing I'm afraid. The fact that you didn't vote for the current incumbents is neither here nor there, in a democratic society. But at least you did vote, so you have a right to complain

By the way, I'm pro-Europe

[overkill]

Originally Posted by stealther

I can understand your point of view but I hate the fact that the government decides what is best for me. I never voted in this government so nothing they do is for me. I may be an ill informed person when it comes to Europe all I have to go on is a gut feeling and my feeling is I don’t like decisions being made at a national level so making them at European level seems worse.

PS I don’t think the people you worry about voting ever vote other than for extortionist phone in shows like crap factor and big blubber!

I didn't vote for the last govt, and the way the media spin machine is creating a fantasy world around Cameron, I won't be responsible for voting in the next either. Nor, in any one shape or form, did I benefit from the vast majority of their policies, in particular those on tax, education, trade unions, health and privatisation. Not to mention their poor record on crime (highest ever recorded crime figures in 1992).

However, I still supported them when it came to closer links with Europe, and yes, it was indeed a Tory govt that both took us into Europe and signed the treaties that bound us to closer integration in the 80's. At the same time I would not have supported a referendum on their decisions for the same reasons as now, they had a better command of what was going on, in that area of foreign policy, than we did.

[Fusewire]

I can't see why we would want to tie ourselves to a European superstate, all I hear is doom and gloom about what is going to happen to us if we don't sign up, rarely do I hear mentioned anything positive about us joining.

[dBrowne]

I can't find anything on the Declaration on the Future of Europe other than as an already existing annex to the Nice Treaty. Any links?

[dBrowne]

Perhaps they just want to keep all the Polish out?*

I notice that Ireland and "Europhobic" Britain have been more welcoming of their eastern european co-communitarians than the evangelising founder member states.

[Squiffy]

As others have pointed out, why be in the EU when we can get the same trading benefits by just being in the European Economic Area like Switzerland.

If we did want to align ourselves with another power, then why would the EU be a better bet than the US? We have far more in common with the US, and I believe that economically it would be of far more benefit to us.

[KeithO]

Originally Posted by Squiffy

As others have pointed out, why be in the EU when we can get the same trading benefits by just being in the European Economic Area like Switzerland.

If we did want to align ourselves with another power, then why would the EU be a better bet than the US? We have far more in common with the US, and I believe that economically it would be of far more benefit to us.

The UK would have a lot less control over its own destiny if it allied (even more) closely with the US, than it would with Europe. In any UK/Europe scenario the UK would at least have a pretty strong voice as it would be one of the larger and more economically-viable and stable members. In any alignment with the US, the UK would inevitably be little more than a minor, non-voting partner.

I don't believe the economic and political pressures that affect the US are the same that affect Europe (and I include UK in that) so I think if the UK is to align with anyone else, it's better off with the EU than the US.

Unless of course, you want to give up the pound for the oh-so-strong dollar

[overkill]

Originally Posted by KeithO

The UK would have a lot less control over its own destiny if it allied (even more) closely with the US, than it would with Europe. In any UK/Europe scenario the UK would at least have a pretty strong voice as it would be one of the larger and more economically-viable and stable members. In any alignment with the US, the UK would inevitably be little more than a minor, non-voting partner.

I don't believe the economic and political pressures that affect the US are the same that affect Europe (and I include UK in that) so I think if the UK is to align with anyone else, it's better off with the EU than the US.

Unless of course, you want to give up the pound for the oh-so-strong dollar

Exactly. I never understand this 'we have more in common with the US' bit. We don't. Beyond language, we have nothing else even vaguely similar. Our economy both in scale and style is completely different, our society is vastly different to their's, our govt nothing like it, our systems on a different planet. Yes we come from the same roots, at least up until the late 18th C, but from there onwards we diverged massively and the US has taken on board a collosal non-English population that has also caused a dramatic cultural divergance.

Unlike Europe, the US's influence on Britain is obvious and can hardly be described as anything but detrimental. The ubiquitous fast food chains, Americanisation of our language, absorbtion of their aggressive and completely alien (to us) street culture, the increasing (since the mid 80's) influence of their 'no-one is a winner' educational practices, unpleasant business practices, the culture of litigation, PC, none of which I would describe as being 'positive'.

The traffic is also all 'one way'. We get nothing back for our support for the US in wars, at the UN, in business (how many major US firms pulled out of Britain in the early 80's helping to deepen the recession? More than double the number of Japanese that's how many) whereas with Europe we can influence policy, and dampen cultural influences to our society to a major degree.