[neilmcl]

As with most forums I'm sure there are a number of IT contractors here, I have a question regarding daily rates. I'm just about to start a new role and its the first time that I'll be on a daily rate. Anyone currently being paid by the day and how does it work in terms of working flexible hours, ie, can you still say work a shorter day one day and make up the time on another or do you have to strictly adhere to a fixed number of hours a day. I'd appreciate your experiences, particularly when it comes to filling out timesheets.

[Steve.J.Davies]

Timesheets - easy for each day its just a 1.

Depends on the site - I am sure you will do your hours and be seen to do them.
then there is the specific contract detail to consider in this regard.
You know how it goes.
Just make sure they don't try and screw 12-16 hour days out of you. if it is done on the basis of daily pay for a 40 hour week over five days you need to establish that in some way.
I always drop in early on that the dialy rate means I charge the same for a four hour day as I do for sixteen hour one.
As ever give and take on both sides means a lot.

best day for a daily rate is Christmas Eve - they send you home at lunch time !!
Must admit I feel guilty when this happens - til I get home !

[Paul_HDLover]

Re OP. Although you are working as a contractor you will still be working within the structure of the company itself. For example, some companies even though they operate a flexible working policy will want you to work fixed hours as you are a contractor. Others are happy for you to work flexibly, fitting in with their current working patterns.

There really is no answer to your question as every company is different. These are the questions you need to ask your line manager on day 1.

Odd request here, but on a similar note. Im looking to get hold of a sample contract for IT staff. Does anyone know where I can get one.

[Tony_T]

This can be a bit of a mine field, so be sure you know how many hours a day you are expected to work. One contract I had specified a 'professional working day'. This meant that the contractors worked an 8 hour day while the permies did a 7 hour day.
As the office was out of town, this cought out a colleague of mine who wanted to get the shuttle buses to/from work and take a lunch break..

[Steve.J.Davies]

Paul
A sample contract between contractor and an agency ? ? ? A fixed price one ? ? A contract between employer and agency ? ?

If you state requirements and needs may be able to help, have several examples of different kinds though they do tend to be marked up a non-sharable things I may be able to answer your questions or give pointers etc etc

[Paul_HDLover]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

Paul
A sample contract between contractor and an agency ? ? ? A fixed price one ? ? A contract between employer and agency ? ?

If you state requirements and needs may be able to help, have several examples of different kinds though they do tend to be marked up a non-sharable things I may be able to answer your questions or give pointers etc etc

Thanks Steve,

Im thinking of starting my own IT Consultancy and as such would have self employed contractors, contracted to my company, so yes I need a contract between my company and the contractor.

I am also interested to know approximate costs involved of hiring a IT professional through an agency. There is probably a fee straight off, but then do the agency take a daily rate aswell. i.e. You tell the agency to find a contractor for £400 per day all in. They then find a contractor for £300, and take the £100 themselves.

If a sample contract was available somewhere between an agency and employer and contractor and agency this would cover most if not all of my questions.

Steve, also do you know if you HAVE to issue a contract to a contractor or can you just issue them a summary of conditions? I read somewhere that a summary of benefits and conditions would be OK.

Any help appreciated.

Paul

[Steve.J.Davies]

Paul,
Reasonable questions - could be a huge response though...
"Steve, also do you know if you HAVE to issue a contract to a contractor or can you just issue them a summary of conditions? I read somewhere that a summary of benefits and conditions would be OK."
Can't comment on employment law but as a contractor I would only work to a signed contract.
From the contractor employer side implied conditions apply once the contractor walks in the door on the first day but that is something only resorted to when needed.
Re the fees etc, I see this a new field for you ?
Do you have IT experience but not of contracting ?
Do you have any experience of dealing with Agencies ? ?
If not then how do you propose to find the vacancies and to get your contractors in the frame ?

In any regard there is a huge variety out there. many agencies will exploit both the contractor and the employer. And there is a lot of tricks they use.
Many (including some of the household names in the industry) will, in my view, put forward the contractors that give them the biggest payback and not the best person for the job. The agencies have a host of tricks to achieve this. I am sure the many IT folks on here could comment also.
Experienced contractors know the right questions to ask to see through dodgy practices and can do so very quickly - at least I like to think I can anyway
If you took 25 percent of the fee (or more) I would not work for you !!
Best by far is transparency and a fee at a fixed percentage - 6 percentish is reasonable I think. That way you are quids in with the contractors and can build some loyalty and quids in with the employers as they they know your contractors will know the full financial facts up front and won't up sticks and leave when they find out they are getting stiffed by some greedy agency. Nice warm feelings about staff not walking out the door willy nilly are worth something - quite a lot when its key project stuff.

[Paul_HDLover]

Re the fees etc, I see this a new field for you ?
Do you have IT experience but not of contracting ?
Do you have any experience of dealing with Agencies ? ?
If not then how do you propose to find the vacancies and to get your contractors in the frame ?

Im trying to understand how much of a cut the agencies take as this is a selling pitch to prospective clients as I intend to remove this. Without going into too much detail, I am not intending on using agencies to recruit my contractors, I already have a panel of contractors (Who are good) that I have worked with previously. What I am intending to do will actually take the need for businesses to approach agencies to recruit quality staff.

So, the reason I would like to see a sample contract is so that I can make a written contract between my business and my contractors.

And the reason I would like to see a contract between an agency and an employer, is to gauge what the charges are so that I can use this as a sales pitch as my company does away with this cost and removes the need for a middle man.

[Steve.J.Davies]

Ahh, I see why not too much detail - market advantage and all that.
However there are already some quality providers out there so market competition will be hard to overcome. I will ASS-U-ME that is why you want to keep schtumm.
Any contracts you use will need to be signed off by a legally qualfied person (solictor or Cherie Blair )unless you don't mind the risks of leaving your ass flapping in the breeze in various ways.

There is an obvious disconnect though that I do not understand. It looks like you are already on the inside track and have a panel of experienced quality contractors. How is is that you don't already have access to contracts of all kinds and flavours ?

Addition: forgot to address this.
Agencies that do the sterling shuffle will either
A) keep it away from the employer or
B) have a long term relation with the employer, even a preferred supplier status, that automatically gives 'trust' and so no need to see the real numbers..

I do know of folks already doing what you are proposing in so far as detail is already forthcoming. How will you fight through the usual IT management resistance issues. have you seen it from that side of the fence - i.e been an IT manager with a fair sized budget and FTE reports ? ?

[Paul_HDLover]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

Ahh, I see why not too much detail - market advantage and all that.
However there are already some quality providers out there so market competition will be hard to overcome. I will ASS-U-ME that is why you want to keep schtumm.
Any contracts you use will need to be signed off by a legally qualfied person (solictor or Cherie Blair )unless you don't mind the risks of leaving your ass flapping in the breeze in various ways.

There is an obvious disconnect though that I do not understand. It looks like you are already on the inside track and have a panel of experienced quality contractors. How is is that you don't already have access to contracts of all kinds and flavours ?

I have not discussed the situation with any of my panel. When the time for the job arrives I want them to know they are working for the real deal, not someone who asks for a copy of their previous contract and amends it

But seriously, all I am doing at the moment is fact finding. I would like to formulate a contract between my company and my contractors. I will then visit a Legal Eagle to sign off or make ammendments to the proposed contract. All of this will occur before my company officially opens for business. I just thought if i could find something on the web then this would provide a good basis for a first effort, rather than the Solicitor writing one from scratch for me, which will increase my overall set up costs which are already fairly large.

This made me laugh mate: 'unless you don't mind the risks of leaving your ass flapping in the breeze in various ways'

[Steve.J.Davies]

Well I got some - but because I signed 'em I can't give 'em to you.

(these obviously covered not only confidentiality but also barrrier to entry - two variations of 'The Flap')

[Paul_HDLover]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

I do know of folks already doing what you are proposing in so far as detail is already forthcoming. How will you fight through the usual IT management resistance issues. have you seen it from that side of the fence - i.e been an IT manager with a fair sized budget and FTE reports ? ?

Yes I am currently an IT Manager. All I can say is that what I am proposing is:

- good for IT contractors
- bad for agencies

But why the hell should a guy that clears your drains get £108 per hour and an IT Contractor only get £40 per hour? Its time to take some back.

[neilmcl]

Got the contract through today and as mentioned its a daily rate based on a standard 40 hour week. I'll speak to the line manager on Monday and see how flexible these hours can be. Looking at the timesheets involved, they require the daily hours to be listed as well as whether you've worked a full or half day. The concern I had is if I worked 35 hours during Mon to Thurs so I could then work 5 hours and finish early on the Friday, something I've been able to do for years, and providing the client were OK and signed off on this, would the agency then complain that I put down 5 full days and even worse only allow me to invoice for 4 1/2 days even though I've worked the full 40 hr week. I hope this makes sense.

Paul, btw you can find plenty of info over here: http://www.ir35calc.co.uk/ in the articles page and you could also try ringing up a few agencies to see if they'll give you a copy of their standard contract.

[Steve.J.Davies]

also
http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/

[neilmcl]

Originally Posted by Steve.J.Davies

also
http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/

Same website, different name.

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by Paul_HDLover

I have not discussed the situation with any of my panel. When the time for the job arrives I want them to know they are working for the real deal, not someone who asks for a copy of their previous contract and amends it

But seriously, all I am doing at the moment is fact finding. I would like to formulate a contract between my company and my contractors. I will then visit a Legal Eagle to sign off or make ammendments to the proposed contract. All of this will occur before my company officially opens for business. I just thought if i could find something on the web then this would provide a good basis for a first effort, rather than the Solicitor writing one from scratch for me, which will increase my overall set up costs which are already fairly large.

This made me laugh mate: 'unless you don't mind the risks of leaving your ass flapping in the breeze in various ways'

Paul I would be seriously concerned working through you or hiring through you. Now please don't take this the wrong way, but what you are proposing is very naive and exactly not what this industry requires. I'm assuming you've never heard of IR35, MSC's, Travel Expenses, just to name a few headlines. You seriously can't get away with a sample contract and then have some legal eagles review it. The way a contract is written is very different for each job and can have massive tax implications regarding liabilities and payments. That is not something a legal eagle will warn you about.

The days of setting up an Agency from your loft whilst wearing a wide tie Are well and truly over for sustainable contracts. Likewise the kind of margins you are mentioning as an example.....

You need to know about framework agreements, ECO systems to partner up, get on the OGC scheme, etc..etc...

Good luck on you, but for your own benefit...Yes it is still about contact, if you had them you wouldn't ask for sample contract on a forum....To help you out a little, take a look at the professional contractors group web site. http://www.pcg.org.uk.

They've got IR35 experts, sample contract and the lot. Now personally I don't like them very much, too many unionised ideas, and I wasn't impressed with the members that I had worked with....Remember the truly good guys and girls always work and don't have time for that kind of chit-chat

Now for the OP, it all depends on who you work with. However before you accept your contract have it IR35 checked....So if they let you work from home great, if you can provide substitutes even better, etc...It all allows you to pay less money in taxes....

Alternative make certain you get a contract with the government as it will be that only time in your life you get more from them than you'll have to pay

[neilmcl]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Now for the OP, it all depends on who you work with. However before you accept your contract have it IR35 checked....So if they let you work from home great, if you can provide substitutes even better, etc...It all allows you to pay less money in taxes....

Alternative make certain you get a contract with the government as it will be that only time in your life you get more from them than you'll have to pay

Don't worry I'm not a noob in all this , I've been contracting for the last 15+ years so I've got the whole thing, including IR35 etc, pretty much covered, it's just that this will be the first time I've had a daily rate contract so I was after some other members experiences.

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by neilmcl

Don't worry I'm not a noob in all this , I've been contracting for the last 15+ years so I've got the whole thing, including IR35 etc, pretty much covered, it's just that this will be the first time I've had a daily rate contract so I was after some other members experiences.

Wow I did get the wrong impression indeed! I haven't given nor received anything else but daily rate contracts in the last 12 years.....

[cdrider]

Originally Posted by Paul_HDLover

Odd request here, but on a similar note. Im looking to get hold of a sample contract for IT staff. Does anyone know where I can get one.

http://www.pcg.org.uk

[neilmcl]

Originally Posted by cdrider

http://www.pcg.org.uk

He does need to be a member first to get hold of the sample contracts.

[neilmcl]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Wow I did get the wrong impression indeed! I haven't given nor received anything else but daily rate contracts in the last 12 years.....

In that case you can probably answer my question then. under a daily rate contract are you still able to work flexible hours and still put down five full days worked, ie, if you chose to work 9 hours Mon-Thurs and 4 hours on Friday is this treated as a full 5 day working week (36+4=40) or only 4 1/2.

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by neilmcl

In that case you can probably answer my question then. under a daily rate contract are you still able to work flexible hours and still put down five full days worked, ie, if you chose to work 9 hours Mon-Thurs and 4 hours on Friday is this treated as a full 5 day working week (36+4=40) or only 4 1/2.

That is totally between you and your client; not necessarily the agency. I tend to do exactly what you describe above, and most of the guys and girls on my team in the current and past environments do that. Especially where they have to travel quite a bit....So most come in later on a Monday morning, and leave early on a Friday or where possible and proven not to skive work from home on a Friday work permitting. Considering that so many have to travel hundreds of miles, I have not come across unreasonable contracts yet....

Although when I was requested to go in with a team at DWP up near St Helens I was warned that they are a strict 9-5 environment....Not surprising they find it dificult to get good quality contractors....

The disadvantage can be of-course that when it is release night or day or weekend you can do easily 14-18 hour days and just get paid for a single professional day....But when they are flexible otherwise it doesn't really matter....I've also had plenty of 2 hour days which was still a professional day....Generally I find is that they look at your output instead of your hours...But if your output is not great (whether your fault or not) and your hours aren't great better start walking towards that door

So in short, it really depends on your client....

Oh and to answer your other question...It depends who signs the timesheets at the client...A previous senior person would sign when I put donald duck on them, and preferred to just put down 9-5 x 5days....Currently they like the timesheets to reflect reality, and the consulting organisation I go through don't mind that either...As long as they get their share....

[maix27]

I work in the IT recruitment industry and thought i might be able to help out with a few answers. Ist, rates for contractors are very negotiable. The usual range is between 20/15% as a mark-up. So a contractor wants £400 per day, the agency charges a 20% fee then the total the hirer pays for the contractor is £480.

I don't know if i read right but if you want an agency to find contractors for you they will be contracted to you via the agency (ie they will be employed by the agency). You'd have to do your own resourcing if you wanted the contractors to be employed by you.

As for the contract, trust me, pay the money, get it done right. You don't want a loophole being found in a couple of months that could cost you a lot of money.

Also, make sure your terms and conditions for the hiring company is water tight. One thing to watch is a rebate period.

Hope this is of a little help.

[Paul_HDLover]

Originally Posted by dejongj

Paul I would be seriously concerned working through you or hiring through you. Now please don't take this the wrong way, but what you are proposing is very naive and exactly not what this industry requires. I'm assuming you've never heard of IR35, MSC's, Travel Expenses, just to name a few headlines. You seriously can't get away with a sample contract and then have some legal eagles review it. The way a contract is written is very different for each job and can have massive tax implications regarding liabilities and payments. That is not something a legal eagle will warn you about.

The days of setting up an Agency from your loft whilst wearing a wide tie Are well and truly over for sustainable contracts. Likewise the kind of margins you are mentioning as an example.....

You need to know about framework agreements, ECO systems to partner up, get on the OGC scheme, etc..etc...

Good luck on you, but for your own benefit...Yes it is still about contact, if you had them you wouldn't ask for sample contract on a forum....To help you out a little, take a look at the professional contractors group web site. http://www.pcg.org.uk.

They've got IR35 experts, sample contract and the lot. Now personally I don't like them very much, too many unionised ideas, and I wasn't impressed with the members that I had worked with....Remember the truly good guys and girls always work and don't have time for that kind of chit-chat

Now for the OP, it all depends on who you work with. However before you accept your contract have it IR35 checked....So if they let you work from home great, if you can provide substitutes even better, etc...It all allows you to pay less money in taxes....

Alternative make certain you get a contract with the government as it will be that only time in your life you get more from them than you'll have to pay

You have no idea what Im talking about man. You are way off on a tangent.

I wouldn't want you in my company as you have just demonstrated a lack of understanding of the information presented to you in this thread and have made unsafe assumptions. Both are qualities I would prefer to swerve.

Fortunately for me, Id catch you in an interview.

[dejongj]

Originally Posted by Paul_HDLover

You have no idea what Im talking about man. You are way off on a tangent.

I wouldn't want you in my company as you have just demonstrated a lack of understanding of the information presented to you in this thread and have made unsafe assumptions. Both are qualities I would prefer to swerve.

Fortunately for me, Id catch you in an interview.

Paul, as you were hijacking this thread in the first place I won't be dragged into it any further. As I am obviously very wrong in the way I understand what you want, I hope for you that you got your sample contracts and will be a great succes...Let's leave it to that...