[Duncan G]

[RMCF]

Rather a sad post to someone's death.

I realise that he hasn't a good past history, but what did he do on you that makes you so happy he's dead?
He is still someones husband, father, brother, grandfather and his death will be painful to some. I hope when you lose someone similar you look back and consider your celebration at PW Botha's death when someone was in a similar situation to yourself.

[partyweb]

I gotta admit I didn't know who he was and did a quick google:

"Hard-line South African prime minister and later state president during the apartheid era"


Ok, so I guess if someone has suffered to an extreme under his reign as pm/president they probably would celebrate his passing. (Not my view, just trying to see the other side of the fence)

Maybe Duncan G can tell us how him/his family have been affected so much as to cause him to be joyous and make a post.

[Steven]

RMCF, I didn't know who he was, hit google, and every link says 'apartheid'

Quick post edit?

Partyweb, I don't think you necessarily need to have suffered to make such a post? I presume this thread is gonna get deleted

[Mr.D]

Eff him , hope he burns in hell.

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by LFC_SL

RMCF, I didn't know who he was, hit google, and every link says 'apartheid'

Quick post edit?

Partyweb, I don't think you necessarily need to have suffered to make such a post? I presume this thread is gonna get deleted

I would agree with partyweb, what did he do on you to make you so happy he is dead?

I could understand black South Africans celebrating his death, but not someone who lives thousands of miles away who has never been affected by him in any way.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by RMCF

I could understand black South Africans celebrating his death, but not someone who lives thousands of miles away who has never been affected by him in any way.

Empathy ? Humanity maybe?

[RMCF]

But you have to remember he was conditioned to be a racist.

When he was brought up as a young white South African in those old days, it was drilled into him that he was superior to blacks. It wasn't his fault - it happens to young people in a lot of places in the world.

I realise that some will say when he took power he could have made changes, but by that stage humans in-built prejudices are too in-grained.

I even see it today. They are lots of people in the UK who are racist - you tend to find old people are the most intolerant. I see it here in Ireland. I see old people who struggled through very hard times and are now the most bigoted people around.

I mean Ian Paisley is a hate figure in my community here in Ireland. I loathe his ideals, his politics, his bigotry - but I won't celebrate when he dies.

[Pat_C]

Originally Posted by RMCF

I would agree with partyweb, what did he do on you to make you so happy he is dead?

I could understand black South Africans celebrating his death, but not someone who lives thousands of miles away who has never been affected by him in any way.

If you have any sense of compassion about the effect that some evil people have on other human beings it makes little difference whether you were directly affected or not.

I recall an old sketch by Spike Milligan where he announced as a newsreader: "Idi Amin has been shot dead. Doctors say his condition is satisfactory"

[Steven]

I can see both sides. I suppose everyone has their own way to deal with events. I will say imo it doesn't really matter we weren't directly affected

[Decadence]

Originally Posted by RMCF

I mean Ian Paisley is a hate figure in my community here in Ireland. I loathe his ideals, his politics, his bigotry - but I won't celebrate when he dies.

I won't celebrate but it'll sure make my day...as did the news of this man's passing...

[Pat_C]

Originally Posted by RMCF

But you have to remember he was conditioned to be a racist.

Whilst that may be true it isn't a good excuse. Hitler was conditioned to hate Jews, and paedophiles are often conditioned to do what they do. If you extend your logic nobody would be responsible or accountable for anything because they could always blame external influences.

[krish]

The new post-Apartheid state of South Africa is actually being very gracious about PWB, especially since he fought reform and change, and was basically kicked out and replaced by F W de Klerk, who moved swiftly to dismantle the racist constitution (and won the Nobel Peace Prize together with Mandela).

He's apparantly going to get a state funeral, and Nelson Mandela has also been quite kind about him (... then again he did say Margaret Thatcher was someone he could do business with, and later posed with the Spice Girls and Naomi Campbell )

I do remember PWB clearly from the eighties as one of several leaders of evil regimes around the world, and so I don't think he quite deserves various tributes and the dignity of a state funeral (especially since that was effectively a different state and constitution, with a different flag).

[Duncan G]

Originally Posted by partyweb

I gotta admit I didn't know who he was and did a quick google:

"Hard-line South African prime minister and later state president during the apartheid era"


Ok, so I guess if someone has suffered to an extreme under his reign as pm/president they probably would celebrate his passing. (Not my view, just trying to see the other side of the fence)

Maybe Duncan G can tell us how him/his family have been affected so much as to cause him to be joyous and make a post.

A dead racist is a good racist.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by krish

The new post-Apartheid state of South Africa is actually being very gracious about PWB,

South Africa generally deals with its history with more equanimity than a lot of other African countries that have gone through regime change.

The security services , the military are the same organisations that supported the appartheid government(s) .

However you have two options during a regime change .

You can destroy and pillory the organisations and individuals that supported the machinations of the opposed government which effectively involves tearing down valuable infrastructure and making about a third of your citizens enemies of the state.

Or you can draw a line in the sand , restructure those organisations most at fault over time with the cooperation of the individuals responsible for maintaining them ( who are just happy about not disappearing in the middle of the night) and try and build a more cohesive society rather than spend years and more blood on wasteful vengeance.

[RMCF]

Originally Posted by Pat_C

Whilst that may be true it isn't a good excuse. Hitler was conditioned to hate Jews, and paedophiles are often conditioned to do what they do. If you extend your logic nobody would be responsible or accountable for anything because they could always blame external influences.

OK, I agree with your point. We are all accountable for the actions we take in life, and I think that as humans we should be understanding of others and indeed tolerant.

But the point I was trying to make is that as humans we are all conditioned as we grow up.

Take the situation of Northern Ireland - the one closest to me. When a child is born it is into either a Catholic or Protestant family. That child is then raised as one or the other religion. That child has no choice in the matter. It doesn't get the chance to be neutral until its old enough to make its own mind up if it wants to be one or the other or neither. So it is conditioned to be one or the other by its parents. We then have so many people angry at the other side through conditioning - in most cases they actually have no valid reason to be angry at the other side - its just because they are the other side!!

Same in PWB case. I am sure he was conditoned as a child to be racist. This is hard to shake off as an adult. I am sure when he got into power he wasn't just going to say, ' sure lets forget about all this apartheid nonsense - equal rights for blacks. Lets divide the wealth 50/50 and the Parliament 50/50. Lets give education to the blacks. Lets all be friends'. But it wasn't his fault in my opinion for not doing this.

[Duncan G]

Originally Posted by RMCF

Rather a sad post to someone's death.

I realise that he hasn't a good past history, but what did he do on you that makes you so happy he's dead?
He is still someones husband, father, brother, grandfather and his death will be painful to some. I hope when you lose someone similar you look back and consider your celebration at PW Botha's death when someone was in a similar situation to yourself.

What a ridiculous comment. Just because somone was a husband or any of the above does not mean you have to show that person any respect if they do not deserve it. Adolf Hitler was someones son, Pol Pot was as well and Ian Huntly is.
That does not entitle them to respect or sympathy. Fred West was husband, father, son. He did the right thing by topping him self.

As far as I know, I do not have any relatives who were as evil as P W Botha.

[Duncan G]

Originally Posted by RMCF

But you have to remember he was conditioned to be a racist.

When he was brought up as a young white South African in those old days, it was drilled into him that he was superior to blacks. It wasn't his fault - it happens to young people in a lot of places in the world.

I realise that some will say when he took power he could have made changes, but by that stage humans in-built prejudices are too in-grained.

I even see it today. They are lots of people in the UK who are racist - you tend to find old people are the most intolerant. I see it here in Ireland. I see old people who struggled through very hard times and are now the most bigoted people around.

I mean Ian Paisley is a hate figure in my community here in Ireland. I loathe his ideals, his politics, his bigotry - but I won't celebrate when he dies.

What about free will and logic? My mother was racist, at one time she toyed with the idea of joining the National Front and had a reprsentative round to tea! She did not join up. But I did not adopt her racist views.

Conditioning is not an excuse. Respect is earned not given or demanded.

[Westindieman]

My Google results have led me to hope he died in pain.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Whoever the person is and whatever they have done, it just seems to me that a thread created to celebrate their death is a little in poor taste.

And I don't think it is appropriate for "General Chat".

[la gran siete]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Empathy ? Humanity maybe?

Hoping someone burns in Hell is hardly humanity. Too many are being rather vindictive me thinks which in itself is fairly evil. "H e who is free from sin let him caste the first stone"

There is one word we shopuld all adopt and that is RECONCILIATION/.It is the one that is allowing both South afirica and Ruanda move forward from their troubled past.

[RMCF]

This will be my last post on the subject as there seems to be 2 distinct camps and I don't want to get into petty fights with anyone.

Some may have considered him a reincarnation of the devil himself, others just a man in charge of a corrupt regime.

But to celebrate his death and feel good about it in unacceptable, in my books. But we are all entitled to our opinions.

Bye.

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

Hoping someone burns in Hell is hardly humanity. Too many are being rather vindictive me thinks which in itself is fairly evil. "H e who is free from sin let him caste the first stone"

There is one word we shopuld all adopt and that is RECONCILIATION/.It is the one that is allowing both South afirica and Ruanda move forward from their troubled past.

Absolutely! He was not alone in standing for apartheid; he was voted in by the vast majority of the white population who generally agreed with his policies at the time.* But that was then, and this is now, and he is gone. We can't change the past but we can change the future, and surely there is nothing to be gained by rejoicing his death. He actually died politically the day he left office, and him and his like will not be returning 'politically' to that country.
*Although I would add that having been there many many times, there are still a significant minority of the population there who blame him, not for being a right wing racist, but for being too soft at the time and giving too many concessions to non whites.
Phil

[Pat_C]

Originally Posted by RMCF

OK, I agree with your point. We are all accountable for the actions we take in life, and I think that as humans we should be understanding of others and indeed tolerant.

But the point I was trying to make is that as humans we are all conditioned as we grow up.

Take the situation of Northern Ireland - the one closest to me. When a child is born it is into either a Catholic or Protestant family. That child is then raised as one or the other religion. That child has no choice in the matter. It doesn't get the chance to be neutral until its old enough to make its own mind up if it wants to be one or the other or neither. So it is conditioned to be one or the other by its parents.

Yes, I wouldn't dispute that as children we are all conditioned to varying degrees, and largely by our parents. Some of that is good and some is bad. In an ideal world, as children grow into adults they would develop the desire and capacity to question that conditioning, and where appropriate, reject it in favour of a set of values derived from a much wider experience.

That is my problem with a society that is increasingly dependent on junk TV, gossip magazines, celebrity and scratch cards (as examples) - that all of these encourage intellectual laziness, and use time that could otherwise be spent by people developing the capacity to challenge what they are told, and what they have always accepted.

I doubt that many who engage in racial or religious intolerance would get far defending their position on an intellectual level. Especially if they're in the queue for scratch cards with all the other cabbages.

[Pat_C]

Originally Posted by Kazuya Mishima

And I don't think it is appropriate for "General Chat".

I'm struggling to think of any recent current event that is more general than this.

[Westindieman]

Originally Posted by la gran siete

"......................
There is one word we shopuld all adopt and that is RECONCILIATION/.It is the one that is allowing both South afirica and Ruanda move forward from their troubled past.

He refused to assist in South Africa's RECONCILIATION. REFUSED it! He deserved to die painfully but even if he did it wouldnt have been as painfull as I wished on him and for him to know why the pain.

[Philly112]

Originally Posted by Bruce Willy

He refused to assist in South Africa's RECONCILIATION. REFUSED it! He deserved to die painfully but even if he did it wouldnt have been as painfull as I wished on him and for him to know why the pain.

Well, I for one can never accept thant a human being can wish a painful death on anyone. He was an old irrelevant man who has gone, and the world will move on. I repeat my previous post in saying that he was voted in by the white community, many of whom have, frankly, not changed their views. They might accept the current position as inevitable, but they do not accept that their country is now a better place to live.
And I do not wish them a painful death - they will pass on and hopefully in 20 or 30 years from now their country will truly be the 'Rainbow Nation'. But it really isn't now.

Phil

Edit - I must add that I am 45 and that most of my SA friends and acquaintances are 35-55 age group, and almost exclusively white.

[BAN5HEE]

As a South African I think some the statements made here are disgusting and by ignorant people who probably never even set foot in South-Africa and shout from their little high pedestals across the ocean. Comparing PW Botha to someone like Hitler is just stupid. Here is an insert from a South-African news paper that some might find interesting. I admit he was no angel but wishing someone a painful death and hoping he burns in hell makes you no better then him. His refusal to appear before the Truth and Reconciliation commision is no big deal as the whole things was a shambles anyway according to Arch Bishop Desmund Tutu.

PW Botha, an international pariah as leader of apartheid-era South Africa, was recalled by colleagues on Wednesday as an arch hawk who ironically opened the door to the end of whites-only rule.
The passing of Botha, who died in his sleep on Tuesday night at his home in the Western Cape, served as a sharp reminder of the bitter racial conflict which he presided over as prime minister and then president from 1978 to 1989.
Official reaction to his death was largely muted, with the current head of state, Thabo Mbeki, limiting himself to expressions of condolences for the family of a man who tried to crush his African National Congress movement.
Heartfelt condolences – Mbeki
"We have just received the news and we would like to convey our heartfelt condolences to the family," President Mbeki, whose teenage son and brother are believed to have been killed by apartheid agents, told The Star newspaper.
No decision has been made on whether to grant a state funeral to Botha, who showed contempt for the new regime by refusing to appear before a commission established to shine a light on abuses perpetrated by his security forces.
His successor FW de Klerk, who pulled the curtain down on the apartheid era by calling the first multi-racial elections in 1994, said Botha had been a hard man to like but deserved credit for initiating contacts with the ANC.
Botha made the first steps
Faced with mounting international pressure, which included economic sanctions, it was Botha who made the first tentative steps to open dialogue with the ANC, including its then jailed deputy president Nelson Mandela.
However it was not until his departure from office and Mandela's release from prison in 1991 that negotiations began in earnest. Three years later, Mandela became president after the first multi-racial elections.
"Personally, my relationship with PW Botha was often strained. I did not like his overbearing leadership style and was opposed to the intrusion of the State Security Council system into virtually every facet of government," said de Klerk.
However de Klerk recalled that "it was under his leadership that the government first made contact with Nelson Mandela and ANC leaders in exile."
"I should like to honour PW Botha for the enormous contribution that he made to preparing the way to the new South Africa."
An uncompromising nature
Pik Botha, who served as foreign minister through his namesake's time in office, also recalled his uncompromising nature.
"He was full of humour, wit, that sort of thing but when it came to official work he was a very effective organiser," he told public radio.
"Temperamental at times, I think he was sometimes a bit on the authoritarian side, yet he gave me a relatively free hand" in negotiations with neighbouring southern African states.
Adriaan Vlok, who served as law and order minister under Botha, spoke of his sorrow at the news of his former leader's death.
"I will remember many things about him, foremost that he was a very disciplined person. And he loved people. He loved his people and he loved children," Vlok told AFP.
Firm words from Suzman
However Helen Suzman, a constant thorn in the side of Botha's regime as the only white MP opposed to the apartheid rule, said he should not be remembered fondly.
"He was never a friend of mine. In fact, he was my bete noire when I was in parliament. He was very irritable, bad-tempered," she told AFP.
"There were of course a number of important changes introduced during his regime. These were important step forwards.
"He was not enormously intelligent ... but he had enough sense to realise that change would have to come because the black resistance was gearing up considerably and the opposition of the international community was growing very strong."
As the ANC's military campaign against apartheid gathered pace, Botha imposed emergency rule in 1985 and doggedly refused to pay heed to mounting international criticism of his regime.
Even in retirement, Botha remained defiant and refused to appear before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which found he personally ordered the bombing of the anti-apartheid South African Council of Churches' headquarters.

[BAN5HEE]

Originally Posted by Bruce Willy

He refused to assist in South Africa's RECONCILIATION. REFUSED it! He deserved to die painfully but even if he did it wouldnt have been as painfull as I wished on him and for him to know why the pain.

Like I said. That was the biggest load of shambles in the world. They showed each case on television in South-Africa and became laughing stocks from all sides black and white included at how it was run. Nothing came of it.

[Westindieman]

I respect your right to your opinion BAN5HEE, but you have said nothing there that changes my views. I was aware that it was Botha faced with international pressure started to make changes, but just because you are South African/lived there for so long doesnt mean your acceptance or forgiveness of the man gives you the right to slap down people who have a different view. I also know the Reconciliation was a shambles but I understand why it was done.
I stand by what I said.