[Abbeygoo]

A friend of my wife's has just been telling her the sad story of her friend's two children who, along with many others in the neighbourhood, play at the house of an widower, aged about 60-65.

He lost his wife around 12 months ago (I think) and prior to this the kids all used to play in the house as the gardens backed on to each others and the old couple would give the kids drinks, biscuits, sweets etc.

The two children who play there are both girls and aged 8 and 6.

Sadly, it now turns out that the old guy has been indecently assaulting both girls - the younger one told her mother, the eldest had been too scared to say anything.

My immediate reaction was to go round and sort the guy out - I definitely would if that had happened to my daughter. The thing is, the police told the girls' father not to do this (obvious I know) but the reason they gave was that it would "harm the case when it comes to court".

I realise the police would always act to prevent another crime from occurring and my beef is not with them.

I just don't understand how it would harm any case against the old guy. If it was me, I would be round straight away - if I commit an assault then I deserve to be punished through the courts. How would that affect the charges brought against him?

My wife and I spent a good couple of hours talking about this last night and I thought it would make a cracking debate - so, what would you do?

[PoochJD]

Abbeygoo,

There's no debate to be had: the guy needs to be turned-over to the police immediately, and the parents of the two young girls, need to bring a case against this sick old man!

As much as you may want to throttle him, it won't help you deal with what's happened, except maybe in a cathartic way! Let the police and courts deal with him! They will deal with him, even if it does take a while for the punishment to be metered out, but don't try and go for revenge or react on your anger. The only person getting into trouble, will be you, if you go down that route!


Pooch

[metropolis]

i think this should be left to the police to deal with .it would be very understandable for someone to take matters into thier own hands but any vigilante action may have consequences for the family involved.the last thing the girls and their families need is to be questioned about the actions of other people.the welfare of the children is all anyone should be concerned about.

y do you even need to ask the question??

[Abbeygoo]

Originally Posted by bubble7

y do you even need to ask the question??

Good and clear response, thanks for that. By way of an update, the police have charged him and he has been released on bail.

I take it from that bubble you don't agree?

[Adrenochrome]

If it were my daughter i would strangle him to death no question.

[Garrett]

So the guys guilty before he has a trial, why not get a mob of the neighbors or friends of friends, friends, and go round with a noose and hang him from the highest lamp post.

Dont you hate being in civilized society where people get to the bottom of what’s going on. Just puzzles my why they ever take people to court after all they actually find some people not guilty when we all know everyone of them is guilty as sin, and should be burnt at the stake. NOT

Never heard of kids telling pokies, which has happened time and time again.

[Gadget Daddy]

if it was my daughters he would be 6 foot under by now.

Leave it to the police, if he is sent to court and found guilty, he stands a strong possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison - a far better punishment than a beating. Although I fully understand the temptation (not sure I would be able to help myself if it were my family). However if YOU get involved then it is quite wrong, and you would most likely go to prison yourself.

[Woodywizz]

The case would not be prejudiced at all if he were assaulted. A court of law will not find someone guilty on the basis that the alleged has been assaulted in some form of revenge act. In a criminal trial the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the crime has been committed - the prosecution would not be allowed to bring this assault in as evidence. However, the defence may use the assault as a mitigating factor during sentencing. I think the police were simply warning the parents off as they really did not want the father to be facing an assault charge.

I know that we should all wait for a court to find the defendant guilty, and for the criminal justice system to follow it's due process in placing a relevant sentence; but when your own child is involved, emotions invariably do get involved. If my 6 year old or 8 year old stated that they had been indecently assaulted then that would be good enough evidence for me -

Personally I would go round to his house and would have him strapped to a chair whilst I went to work on his joints with a claw hammer.....then I would burn his house down.

Originally Posted by Garrett

So the guys guilty before he has a trial, why not get a mob of the neighbors or friends of friends, friends, and go round with a noose and hang him from the highest lamp post.

Dont you hate being in civilized society where people get to the bottom of what’s going on. Just puzzles my why they ever take people to court after all they actually find some people not guilty when we all know everyone of them is guilty as sin, and should be burnt at the stake. NOT

Never heard of kids telling pokies, which has happened time and time again.

My feelings exactly Garrett. My gut reaction was against the widower but before I read your post I had changed my mind and thought his actions may have been misinterpreted by the young girls. If he had known them well he may have hugged them or even kissed them on the cheek as he had previously in the presence of his wife. There is so much talk nowadays of child abuse and children see a lot of television. Their parents might have even questioned them prior to this, thus putting the idea in their minds.

I hope for his sake this is the case, as he is probably so lonely and missing his wife. My widowed friend said the worse thing is not having anyone to hold your hand, there is no physical contact. Her adult children live in another country. Maybe this is why he felt compelled to touch them.

If it is sexual abuse then that's an entirely different matter and nobody can have sympathy for him.

[Mr.D]

Originally Posted by woodywizz

be good enough evidence for me -

Personally I would go round to his house and would have him strapped to a chair whilst I went to work on his joints with a claw hammer.....then I would burn his house down.

And you obviously don't have kids as you don't seem to give a damn about the fact you'll be sat in a jail cell for the next 20 years instead of taking care of them.

[Woodywizz]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

And you obviously don't have kids as you don't seem to give a damn about the fact you'll be sat in a jail cell for the next 20 years instead of taking care of them.

Don't you dare make an assumption about me. I have 1 daugher and a son on the way, and will happily walk over hot coals for both of them. I suppose if the man in question had abused your kids then your first thought would be to start compiling a dossier of evidence which would could be used in a court of law at a later date, and you obviously wouldn't pass any comment to the man or any of his acquaintances for fear of prejudicing the case against him.

BTW, what does the "D" stand for???

[Mrs AutomanUK]

Abbeygoo, this is not your, or anyone elses, battle to fight.The trauma of what happened to these girls is not something that I really want to see on this forum either to be honest. However, since you asked....

It is down to the parents of these girls to deal with emotionally and legally. You may have strong feelings about this, however, the police are right in saying that you, the kids father, or anyone else, may harm the case which will prove this guy is guilty. These girls have been incredibly brave, braver than you can ever begin to imagine ( believe me, I know ) to open their mouths and say what has happened to them. They need all the support and care that their parents and friends can offer them. This guy will go down for what he has done, and justice will be served by the law of this land. These girls just need this man to be put away, and to never touch them again. They need to be free to walk down their road without the curtains twitching too. If your neighbourhood is as caring and as close as you make out then you should make sure THIS is what happens, not some vigilante assult on this guy.
Walk a mile in my shoes Abbeygoo and then realise that justice by assult or by law will never take away the pain of what happened and while time is spend wasting energy on hating the perpetrator, the victims get forgotten....

[Knyght_byte]

if it was outright physical sexual assault then i think most people tend to want to go smack the living daylights out of the guy.....

if its more a grooming scenario where there is no obvious harm been done to the kids (by this i mean visible evidence, not talking about the emotional aspect), then i think i have enough control over myself to do things properly and go by the child crime units way of doing things....the ladies they have in their team are brilliant at working out if a kid is telling the truth or looking to get attention/stir things up etc.....you'd be surprised how easy kids find it sometimes to say things when someones annoyed them...for instance he might have started to refuse to give them cakes or something, so as a result, having seen eastenders and stuff on the telly they decide to get their own back and come up with a story....kids might be little angels but they can also be little devils when it suits them, same as an adult....difference is, most kids dont know the difference untill they get told off...most adults do know the difference and dont forget about it 5 minutes after the event...

if the kids in the OP's scenario were physically sexually assaulted it would be a more cut and dry case and he wouldnt be out on bail......if its a grooming thing, then as i say he could well be guilty or he could be innocent, law of the land says things need to be done properly.....sure you could go smack him, but if he turned out innocent and the kids were lying, how would you feel then? not only has he lost his wife, but he's now been labelled a paedo, which even if you are cleared is a label you get stuck with because people dont always trust the courts decision....

if i had kids i'd love them to bits like i do my nephew.....i'd do anything for them, but i control my anger and i'd rather see someone rot in jail than spend a couple minutes punching them about....as someone commented, if i let go my fury on them, given my size and strength i could end up doing a long stretch myself and my kids would be without a dad...a dad they know can get violent....not the way i like to live.....

[Woodywizz]

Originally Posted by Knyght_byte

if i had kids i'd love them to bits like i do my nephew.....i'd do anything for them, but i control my anger and i'd rather see someone rot in jail than spend a couple minutes punching them about....as someone commented, if i let go my fury on them, given my size and strength i could end up doing a long stretch myself and my kids would be without a dad...a dad they know can get violent....not the way i like to live.....

Some good points raised Knyght_byte, but unless you do have your own kids then you cannot say how you would react. I too had nephews and nieces before having kids of my own, but the love you feel for your own child is unbelievably powerful. Yes, I know that we should let the police deal with the situation, but any parent's initial reaction would be to cause some harm to the abuser.

[Garrett]

As Cynthia implies he may have touched them, but perhaps he went to hug them and the girls got frighten is this a reason to go and go round with a claw hammer or plant him 6 foot under, or strangled.

Find the true facts out or you no better than a lynch mob, if he’s guilty he will be punished.

[Woodywizz]

Originally Posted by Garrett

As Cynthia implies she he touched them, but perhaps he went to hug them and the girls got frighten is this a reason to go and go round with a claw hammer or plant him 6 foot under, or strangled.

Find the true facts out or you no better than a lynch mod, if he’s guilty he will be punished.

Blimey, do we have these on the forums????....is IanJ one

On a more serious note, yes you need to find out as much as possible. I would question my children about the allegations, explaining the seriousness of it, if they were still adamant then, yes, I would do something - or get someone else to do something.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by woodywizz

Blimey, do we have these on the forums????....is IanJ one .

well an ex one in Adrenochrome

[smashed]

If it was my kids I would obviously want to give the sentence myself... however...

I dont think getting yourself locked up in prison for X number of years is in anyway in the best interests of my children (when I have some). People like that get whats coming to them as soon as they make it into prison anyway.

For the kids sake, you would have to let ensure that you would be around to help them through the troubled time, not end up behind bars in their time of need.

[signs]

I say....wait for the courts to find him guilty
and then castrate him (with no anaesthetic )

[Abbeygoo]

Been reading with interest the various posts and can agree with all the comments posted.

Garrett's post around the assumption of guilt was the most interesting as I have, wrongly in many people's view, immediately assumed the old guy's guilt. I thank Garrett for stating this opinion so clearly.

I also recognise the contribution from MrsAutoman and not having full understanding of your past, can only acknowledge and appreciate your views. I also have respect for any semblence of this story coming across your path in the past.

Woodywizz has posted very strong views around the physical revenge that could be dished out and I have shared this viewpoint, with differing vigour, whilst considering this sad situation.

I have now decided that the most appropriate thing to do is let the police and our courts deal with the man in a manner that hopefully fits the crime, if indeed one has been committed - I'm assuming things again!

I really do hope that this all is dealt with quickly and quietly and the girls are as unaffected as they appear to be now.

The one nagging doubt in my mind is ...... if the guy is guilty and he stands trial - how long a sentence will he get? One post stated he could spend the rest of his life in jail .... I doubt it.

I'll update the post should I find out more. In the meantime, thanks to all the contributors during this thread.

[Jenn]

Let the police do their work and in the meantime just make sure the girls get all the love, support and help they need so they can grow up with as little scares as possible.

[Carl Stock]

This is best left to the police, who can collate all the evidence and see if there is a case to answer.

Taking the law into your own hands – yes, even if you are a parent – only complicates matters. The law is there for a reason. It can be an ass at times, but it is far better than a lynch mob or vigilantism.

I have no idea what it is like to be a parent. I probably never will be given my circumstances. However, a parent’s love for their own child is immensely strong, and your instinct tells you to nearly destroy anyone who cares to do serious harm to your child.

I get very upset when I hear of cases of abuse towards children because they are helpless – they are children after all. However, to ensure abusers of any kind get caught, the police should always be brought in so that it can all be dealt with carefully, swiftly and so that everything is legal and fair.

The media do not always help in this, putting about the notion that there is a maybe a paedophile around every corner, but being labelled a paedophile when you quite clearly are not one could be absolutely devastating, but we must not let a real paedophile get away with it.

[JohnG]

It's important to let the police and the courts do their work and not interfere, much as we'd all like to ! There have been several cases over the last couple of years of people taking the law into their own hands and killing the person involved and these people have ended up being charged with murder and locked away for life. It may only take one angry blow to kill an old person.

[mickyas]

Originally Posted by jakal

Leave it to the police, if he is sent to court and found guilty, he stands a strong possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison - a far better punishment than a beating. Although I fully understand the temptation (not sure I would be able to help myself if it were my family). However if YOU get involved then it is quite wrong, and you would most likely go to prison yourself.

I used to work in the probation service as a supervisor looking after groups of offenders whilst carrying out various tasks and believe me, if you think, if he is found guilty, that he will spend the rest of his life behind bars, you'll be wrong, even at his old age. I have seen first hand persistant/repeat sex offenders given soft sentences because of their 'deprived' background or some other pathetic excuse.
I even had one guy on community service who had been found guilty of molesting kids...on community service for sake, luckily enough child molestation is found abhorrent even by the criminal fraternity and once the info on this guy had 'leaked' out to the rest of the offenders we were supervising, they ensured he got home 'safely' after drop off.
I could tell you a whole lot more than that as well, which would make your blood boil, so it is understandable why people want to take things into their own hands, as these days the rights of the offenders are deemed to out-weigh that of the victim, wrong, Wrong, WRONG.
Mick

[Hairy]

Let the police do their job and if the evidence is there it will go to court.If he is found guilty he may go to jail, but probably not for long.

Unfortunately,if it was my daughter I don't think I could wait for him getting out of jail but if I could I would then kill him.Absolutely no qualms whatsoever.If he is guilty then he has already ruined your childs life and that of your family.

I really can't understand all the bleeding hearts who trot out the same old rubbish along the lines of "they need treatment,not prison"-yeah, right.

[Carl Stock]

Originally Posted by Hairy

Let the police do their job and if the evidence is there it will go to court.If he is found guilty he may go to jail, but probably not for long.

Unfortunately,if it was my daughter I don't think I could wait for him getting out of jail but if I could I would then kill him.Absolutely no qualms whatsoever.If he is guilty then he has already ruined your childs life and that of your family.

I really can't understand all the bleeding hearts who trot out the same old rubbish along the lines of "they need treatment,not prison"-yeah, right.

Despite being relatively liberal on most matters, my attitude when it comes to paedophiles/child abusers is clear: imprisonment first. We can worry about any rehabilitation later, but I do not think that works with paedophiles. The risk is too great anyway.

[JohnG]

All these people saying that they would kill the person for ruining their daughters lives (I can understand where you are coming from) - don't you think that having her father go to prison for many years for murder will ruin her life even more ?

[The Dude]

And don't these people understand that in circumstances like this, that their feelings are completely irrelevant anyway..?
Nobody is interested in how the parents feel about what has happened, or at least they shouldn't be.


It's the victim that matters, not the victim's friends and family.... and that doesn't just apply to child abuse cases.


You might make yourself feel better by having a go, but as a consequence make the whole situation worse for the victim, your child? and that's being a caring parent? Glad i'm not one of those then.....


All such matters should always be left to the people who think first, and feel later.... that is why they are there.