[Nick_UK]

Special rooms where heroin users could legally inject drugs should be trialled in the UK, a panel of experts has said. The independent group said allowing users to inject in a safe and hygienic environment would improve their health and reduce the risk of fatal overdoses.

The panel, including health workers and senior police officers, highlighted the successful use of such rooms worldwide.

However, the Home Office has argued "drug consumption rooms" could increase localised drug dealing and crime.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5007032.stm

I expect it would give the drugs pushers somewhere nice and warm to congregate, instead of those nasty damp street corners. Did anyone see the report in the news last night, showing how cocaine sales are destroying the lives of ordinary people in Columbia ? The drugs money is fuelling a civil war, which people are fleeing to slums in the city to get away from.

[Fusewire]

The independent group said allowing users to inject in a safe and hygienic environment would improve their health and reduce the risk of fatal overdoses.

So would kicking the habit.. am I missing something here

[mundstick]

I would assume that their thinking is that if the users, and for that matter, the drug dealers are in a known location it will make the problem more managable.

As a Sunday League footballer, myself and the other players on my team are constantly finding used needles strewn across our local football pitches. These pitches are public grounds are are often used by children as well as adults.

Whether giving them a place to inject would be a solution to these type of problems i dont know but I would be in favour of trying if it means reducing the risk for the general public.

[Ethics Gradient]

the single biggest cause of ill health amongst drug users .... is the fact that it is illegal and is therefore done in a surreptitious manner with impure products.

You can't suddenly try and make a correlation between crime in columbia and a sugguestion to try and at least get addicts into safer environments than the streets.... a safer environment not just for them but for the non drug using public as well, as anything to try and reduce the number of discarded needles for children to pick up has to be a bonus !

For me, the attitude that something is illegal and therefore we should never do anything to assist those that partake in it, is extremely naive and almost child like.
It simply does not address the complexties of life and the society we live in - nor provide a solution.
People are taking drugs regardless of the law ... and even if we turn the majority of the UK into a prison, drug taking will still take place - drug use in our prisons is rife and shows you exactly how hopless a policy of 'getting tougher' is.
If drug users are going to carry on whether you like it or not - it is far better to take the mature and pragmatic attitude that whilst I might not agree with it, I am going to make sure that I minimise the health, crime and social risks to the users and the general public as possible.
Or we could just do the old 'hear no evil, see no evil ..... ', personaly I prefer not to appear like a chimp with his hands over his ears


ps .... the don't grow herion in columbia
cocaine can be injected ... but it is more commonly snorted .. or smoked in crack form.
( I think you ment to mention Turkey and Afghanistan instead where most of the herion comes from ... and therefore where most of the drugs that would potentially be injected in these 'rooms' )

[Nick_UK]

I don't think these rooms would be used by addicts - I think these rooms are more aimed at "casual" users. What better way to turn a casual user into an addict, than to make it nice and comfortable for them to shoot up ?

It's really stupid that we fling tobacco addicts out into the cold for their fixes, whilst we provide cocaine users nice comfy places for theirs. To be honest, I have more compassion for the poor families in Columbia than I have for these rich idiots who can't see the harm they are doing, so let them overdose - one less junkie to worry about. Give help to those who can use it and will be grateful for it.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

....... For me, the attitude that something is illegal and therefore we should never do anything to assist those that partake in it, is extremely naive and almost child like.......

Oh, if I had my way, I'd put all these drugs on the NHS for free (or for a small charge to cover burial fees). Then if people want to kill themselves, then at least it won't fund crime and wars.

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

.... ps .... the don't grow herion in columbia
cocaine can be injected ... but it is more commonly snorted .. or smoked in crack form.
( I think you ment to mention Turkey and Afghanistan instead where most of the herion comes from ... and therefore where most of the drugs that would potentially be injected in these 'rooms' )

It really doesn't matter. Drugs fund crime and war, no matter where they're grown.

[GBDG1]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I don't think these rooms would be used by addicts - I think these rooms are more aimed at "casual" users. What better way to turn a casual user into an addict, than to make it nice and comfortable for them to shoot up ?

You're showing a great deal of niavity here, "casual" heroin users, there must be 2 or 3 of those around somewhere.

People smoke heroin up until the point where it becomes a serious problem, upon which they start injecting.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I don't think these rooms would be used by addicts - I think these rooms are more aimed at "casual" users. What better way to turn a casual user into an addict, than to make it nice and comfortable for them to shoot up ?

It's really stupid that we fling tobacco addicts out into the cold for their fixes, whilst we provide cocaine users nice comfy places for theirs. To be honest, I have more compassion for the poor families in Columbia than I have for these rich idiots who can't see the harm they are doing, so let them overdose - one less junkie to worry about. Give help to those who can use it and will be grateful for it.

a casual user is NEVER going to go to a public place that is monitored to inject drugs .... only a junkie would have the lack of care of what society thinks ......
I can just imagine some suited city gent wanting to be seen going into one can't you.
These places will not be the Ritz, nor are they likely to be next door to Next in the high street.

.... I don't think you have thought this one through really have you.


Btw - rich people don't tend to OD ( there are notable exceptions ofc )
They tend to have access to higher quality drugs interms of know levels of purity.
It is people on the streets in the socially deprived areas that are far more likely to OD -- mainly because of inconsitant quality controls - ie the complete lack of them. 1 day they get 5% herion and brick dust ... the next day its 20% pure as the supplies change all the time ... and they OD.

.... if they don't OD, they get serious complications overtime from all the impurities that crimes don't give a jot about buliking their product out with.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Oh, if I had my way, I'd put all these drugs on the NHS for free (or for a small charge to cover burial fees). Then if people want to kill themselves, then at least it won't fund crime and wars.



It really doesn't matter. Drugs fund crime and war, no matter where they're grown.

I think you'll find the British tax payer and the Americans funded the war where herion is grown .... in Afghanistan.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Oh, if I had my way, I'd put all these drugs on the NHS for free (or for a small charge to cover burial fees). Then if people want to kill themselves, then at least it won't fund crime and wars.

Legalise the lot- legitimise supply and measure and then slap duty on the stuff. There is a big element of King Canute about most first world nations and their attitude to drugs.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

a casual user is NEVER going to go to a public place that is monitored to inject drugs .... only a junkie would have the lack of care of what society thinks ......
I can just imagine some suited city gent wanting to be seen going into one can't you.
These places will not be the Ritz, nor are they likely to be next door to Next in the high street.

.... I don't think you have thought this one through really have you.

I'm not sure you have either. You're trying to tell us that a junkie that can't even be bothered to find a public toilet when he wants to take a whizz is going to walk half a mile to find a room to shoot up in ?

And I haven't thought this through ?

[GBDG1]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

I'm not sure you have either. You're trying to tell us that a junkie that can't even be bothered to find a public toilet when he wants to take a whizz is going to walk half a mile to find a room to shoot up in ?

And I haven't thought this through ?

For someone who is such a supposed expert on Junkie behaviour, you don't even seem to know the difference between heroin and cocaine.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Ethics Gradient

I think you'll find the British tax payer and the Americans funded the war where herion is grown .... in Afghanistan.

And your point is ? Are you saying that Bush and Blair went to Afghanistan to wipe out the drugs ?

They didn't make a very good job of it, did they ? It's still going on.

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Lawrenzini

For someone who is such a supposed expert on Junkie behaviour, you don't even seem to know the difference between heroin and cocaine.

Who said I am an expert ? I didn't. I can do without that sort of "expertise", thanks. Whether you inject a drug, or shove it up your as an enema, the effects are the same, both from a health and a crime point of view.

Are you denying that most crime is drugs-related ? Or that drugs are not funding civil wars around the world ?

[colinwheeler]

I think people should think long and hard about legalising these drugs so that they can be controlled better. If people really want to "off" themselves with drugs, they will and there is nothing that can be done to stop them.....been there, seen it, bought the t-shirt. Ergo, let them have thier drugs and get the job over with. Those that want help, provide it.

[GBDG1]

Well I don't swallow this "one less junkie" mantra that you seem to have. A junkie is someone who has only made a few mistakes and their addiction is punishing them enough for that. I think that the structure needs to be put in place to support these people and give them every oppertunity to quit. It is nigh on impossible to quit if you are living on the streets. These people need a safe enviroment and some stability to get themselves together. I think these are a great idea, they have them in Holland and the system works well.

As for the ethical consiquences of drugs fueling civil wars. Well, they are only using the money to buy arms from us or another western country.

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

And your point is ? Are you saying that Bush and Blair went to Afghanistan to wipe out the drugs ?

They didn't make a very good job of it, did they ? It's still going on.

My point was obvious - it is you that is circleing the arguement because of you apparent lack of research before posting

You can't blame the drugs themselves - nor the junkies or the growers.
It is the business men(crooked AND straight ) and world governments that are to blame for wars.... they also happen to be responsable for the biggest cause for drug taking and addiction ... social conditions.
Wars are funded in many ways - drugs, diamonds, and the tax payers.
Shall we have a go at tax payers and diamond miners as well - maybe we could go and raid Beaver Brooks

Your initial post was about the sugguestion of providing safe rooms for drug users to inject drugs and your seeming atempt to link that to crime in columbia.
We have pointed this out to be unlinked and flawed reasoning.
Yes drugs can be bad for society, yes criminals use it to fund allsorts of things.
No people will not stop taking drugs ... nor will safe rooms affect what is going on in Columbia nor will it help promote the use of drugs.
I sugguest reading up on geography, drug use and politics so you can see your mistakes yourself.

[colinwheeler]

Originally Posted by Lawrenzini

A junkie is someone who has only made a few mistakes and their addiction is punishing them enough for that.

That is a big assumption mate. Most of them I know choose that life again and again and again, even when given the opportunity to escape from it.

Originally Posted by Lawrenzini

I think that the structure needs to be put in place to support these people and give them every oppertunity to quit.

This I agree with you on, even though it may not be very effective, it is the only humane response.

[dixiboy2]

These safe, warm and dry places are supposed to ensure the abusers don't get diseases such as HIV and eventually AIDS. Thats in a big way has been sorted by giving free needles out. What this won't stop is them injecting into their inner thighs, tongues, scrotum and other places I don't care to mention. This causes the biggest illness for injecting addicts which is pulmonary embolisms (excuse spelling) When their veins collapse in their arms they go around the body looking for new ones until they arrive at the above areas. Is there going to be someone there to stop this? No. Also to get to one of these places they have to be in possession of controlled drugs. This is a criminal offence. There is no defence in law to say if they are just nipping off to their local junkie joint for a pinning session they are exempt from arrest
Pathetic Liberal bull!!!!

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by dixiboy2

What this won't stop is them injecting into their inner thighs, tongues, scrotum and other places I don't care to mention. This causes the biggest illness for injecting addicts which is pulmonary embolisms (excuse spelling) When their veins collapse in their arms they go around the body looking for new ones until they arrive at the above areas. Is there going to be someone there to stop this?

- Injecting in different parts of the body does not cause pulmonary embolisms.

what casues medical problems is impurities and unclean needles.

with better instruction, safer, cleaner supplies of both the drugs and needles, problems would not occur ( at least in anywhere near the significant numbers we see today )

Originally Posted by dixiboy2

No. Also to get to one of these places they have to be in possession of controlled drugs. This is a criminal offence. There is no defence in law to say if they are just nipping off to their local junkie joint for a pinning session they are exempt from arrest
Pathetic Liberal bull!!!!

sod em then - nick them if they go near the place ... that way we can force them to go elsewhere .... like maybe the alley to the playground where your children play so they discard there needles ready for the kids on the way to school in the morning.

All the evidence we have points to the fact that trying to stop drug taking by making it a criminal offence does NOT work.
not only doesn't it work ..... it makes the situation worse.

"LA LA LA I can't hear you"

.... funily enough problems don't go away doing this ......

[mrtbag]

Projects like this can work for the better. Im am in no way saying that they cure people of addiction, but help deal with a lot of side issues. Lets take HIV for an example. If the drugs are given out, or even just administered under supervision using clean needles etc, the risk of HIV spreading more than it does is cut. Similar projects have already been set-up in places like Iran, that are on 'the heroin trail' from the middle east/asia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4054703.stm

[JackMan]

I must say that I agree with Ethics Gradient for the most part.

To break it down to an even more fundamental level, what you have here are a market (your addicts) and a commodity (controlled drugs). The commodity would not exist without a market for it - that's a basic rule of economics.

It would seem, therefore, that the logical approach would be to try to remove the market. Whilst this is obviously not going to be possible in the 'real world', does it not make sense then, as Mr. Ethics pointed out, to try to minimise the negative impact that drugs use has on the rest of the community?

You may say that this is liberal rubbish, but I prefer to regard it as being pragmatic.

I agree with one of the earlier posters - as long as drugs are pushed underground - the chain of crime within this country and beyond will allways continue.

Why not at least try to bring injecting heroin users out of the shadows and control their supplies or at least provide for the safe disposal of often infected needles that litter parks and playing fields.

Cocaine is another problem altogether - and it's biggest issue is perception. We view heroin as dirty and desperate whilst cocaine is often portrayed as glamorous and a lifestyle statement.

We shouldn't link the two as it affects very different areas of society.

[Reign-Mack]

It’s a pity we don't have any open heroin addicts on this forum, maybe we could get some experienced points of view...

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by jakal

I agree with one of the earlier posters - as long as drugs are pushed underground - the chain of crime within this country and beyond will allways continue.

Why not at least try to bring injecting heroin users out of the shadows and control their supplies or at least provide for the safe disposal of often infected needles that litter parks and playing fields.

Cocaine is another problem altogether - and it's biggest issue is perception. We view heroin as dirty and desperate whilst cocaine is often portrayed as glamorous and a lifestyle statement.

We shouldn't link the two as it affects very different areas of society.

Oh, you can link the two. All drug takers end up on the mortuary slab eventually. And the "lifestyle statements" are still funding civil wars and criminal activities. I expect you'll be telling us next that hard drug users didn't start out on soft drugs.

Now, I don't give a toss what other people do with their bodies - if they want to send themselves to an early grave, then that's their choice. But when "lifestyle statements" are destroying rainforests, and causing people to be driven from their land by thugs with machine guns, then that makes the "lifestyle statement" a very shabby little habit indeed. There's absolutely nothing glamourous about it.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Oh, you can link the two. All drug takers end up on the mortuary slab eventually. And the "lifestyle statements" are still funding civil wars and criminal activities. I expect you'll be telling us next that hard drug users didn't start out on soft drugs.

Now, I don't give a toss what other people do with their bodies - if they want to send themselves to an early grave, then that's their choice. But when "lifestyle statements" are destroying rainforests, and causing people to be driven from their land by thugs with machine guns, then that makes the "lifestyle statement" a very shabby little habit indeed. There's absolutely nothing glamourous about it.

Last time I checked everybody ends up on a slab. Death affects us all.

This is surely just another set of arguments for its legalisation and taxation- make it another cash crop like coffee, peanuts etc. People receive a stiffer sentance for cannabis offences in the States than they do for assault and still the numbers keep growing. The present system doesn't work.

[colinwheeler]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

All drug takers end up on the mortuary slab eventually.

That one is a bit sweeping even for me Nick!

[Nick_UK]

Originally Posted by Ed Selley

Last time I checked everybody ends up on a slab. Death affects us all........

Well, I'd check again if I were you.

If your doctor is convinced that your death is from natural causes, he will sign a death certificate, and your body won't go anywhere near a slab. Only deaths from non-natural causes end up at the mortuary.

[Ed Selley]

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Well, I'd check again if I were you.

If your doctor is convinced that your death is from natural causes, he will sign a death certificate, and your body won't go anywhere near a slab. Only deaths from non-natural causes end up at the mortuary.

Fine- as I'll be dead I imagine the niceties will be lost on me. My point stands that cracking down for the last 20+ years has still resulted in lots of junkies, related crime and problems abroad. Legitimise and legislate is the only sane course of action remaining.

Originally Posted by Nick_UK

Oh, you can link the two. All drug takers end up on the mortuary slab eventually. And the "lifestyle statements" are still funding civil wars and criminal activities. I expect you'll be telling us next that hard drug users didn't start out on soft drugs.

Now, I don't give a toss what other people do with their bodies - if they want to send themselves to an early grave, then that's their choice. But when "lifestyle statements" are destroying rainforests, and causing people to be driven from their land by thugs with machine guns, then that makes the "lifestyle statement" a very shabby little habit indeed. There's absolutely nothing glamourous about it.

Erm.....I do agree with you Nick.... I was just highlighting the difference in societal perception, all narcotics are the same - BAD NEWS.