ID Cards - yes or no?

**Stuart Wright** · 08-07-2005, 8:13 AM

I'm personally very much against ID cards. Thousands of people gave their lives in World War II for the freedom we enjoy in the UK. Yet ignorant, stupid people are trying to erode those freedoms by enforcing rediculous examples of political correctness which are killing our freedom of speech.
And now the government want to introduce ID cards. I think this is an attack on our freedom and we should fight it.
What do you think?

Bristol Pete · 08-07-2005, 8:30 AM

Personally, I have zero problems with an ID card or carrying an ID card. Would not want to pay for it however. Professionally, it could make my job easier but like every format of ID I suspect it will be open to Fraud.

Pete.

themoid · 08-07-2005, 8:51 AM

No.

Nervous about the thought of a database and the information it will contain. Also believe that faking ID will be possible and will defeat the point of carrying a card to identify who we are.

Mep · 08-07-2005, 9:06 AM

remain open minded at present........don't really believe they will work.....but basically don't object to the principle of carrying one if they are proved to effective in even just a small way. I don't think calling people with different opinions stupid and ignorant is a particularly effective way of stating your own position and is unlikely to win people over. Your poll is also to black and white.......to not be decided does not mean that you dont care.

08-07-2005, 9:42 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4663155.stm If they would not have stopped yesterdays attack then what is the point?

Mep · 08-07-2005, 9:56 AM

yes, the more i have read up on these the more i have to say I agree.........is there anything at all that can be done to stop random terrorist acts?
Out of interest, for those who condemn ID cards as an infringement of freedom.....how would you feel if some measure was drawn up, that a large majority (including you) felt would be effective in the fight against terrorism and yet involved some small change in the way you currently do things? I'm not trying to be confrontational I genuinely want to understand both sides of the debate.

Ethics Gradient · 08-07-2005, 10:27 AM

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin

PoochJD · 08-07-2005, 12:03 PM

Hi,

I'm absolutely AGAINST ID cards! They won't work! They'll cost us too much, on a personal level! We already have enough ID for me to be able to identify ourselves, if the need should arise. And more to the point, they won't sstop terrorism - as witnessed on Thursday in London!

Ban All ID card schemes in the UK! If I need to identify myself to someone, for a specific reason, then I can do that already! But I don't want to be forced to carry around a piece of plastic that has my entire identity on it, and where anyone can potentially force me to identify myself!

Pooch

bjd · 08-07-2005, 12:25 PM

Can't see them doing much to counter terrorist attacks, though recent events will be used to reinforce the case for them. The cost, implementation and reliability cause me a lot of concern. And, as Ethics implies, a little loss of freedom can end up going a long way.

Squiffy · 08-07-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mep

how would you feel if some measure was drawn up, that a large majority (including you) felt would be effective in the fight against terrorism and yet involved some small change in the way you currently do things?

Under those circumstances, I might accept it.

However ID cards are unlikely to be effective, and are by no stretch of the imagination a 'small' change.

Mep · 08-07-2005, 12:38 PM

thanks Squiffy................I have researched this whole subject more now...and i do agree with you on the id cards

mason · 08-07-2005, 12:45 PM

Im not for them and not against them either- in fact I couldnt care whether they bring them in or not.

I dont see the harm in them but I do think that they are a waste of money when we already have forms of id.. passport, D/L, birth cert etc

I mean how much will it cost to get them in circulation anyway? Shouldnt we be using this money for something more useful?

Nick_UK · 08-07-2005, 1:16 PM

ID cards are nothing more than poll tax in disguise. £300 x 60 million is a lot of cash - more when you consider that you will pay it again if you change your address or marital status.

It's yet another Labour stealth tax !

Mep · 08-07-2005, 1:18 PM

any idea what the production cost is though?...i.e. how much of that would be margin?

lee789 · 08-07-2005, 2:21 PM

They have announced that it would cost £93 to produce, so there would be a £207 - 69% margin if they were sold at £300.

But I think it is ridiculous to suggest that the purpose of this is to raise coffers.

There has been no announcement as to what the charge to the public would be.

The cost is my main reservation about the scheme, I don't have a problem with civil liberties.

Miyazaki · 08-07-2005, 5:11 PM

ID cards are an abhorrent attack on humanity itself, and I will absolutely refuse to have one. I would rather go to prison.

Jenn · 08-07-2005, 5:45 PM

People talk about freedom left right and centre but forget that society has nothing to do with freedom. In exchange for giving up a little bit of freedom we live in a kind of structured world where it is possible to have health care, education, car insurance, laws to protect us etc.

Who is free ? To be free you might well have to go on a deserted island, throw your clothes away and never come back, live off and try and survive nature!
Anything better than that and you won't be free anymore.

Nobody's free: you MUST have car insurance or your an outlaw (hey I want to do whatever I like with my money), you MUST have a driving license to drive (it's part of freedom to go wherever I like any way I like ?), you MUST pay tax if you earn money (is that being free ?), you MUST have a passport to go abroad, you MUST obey any old law saying what you can or can't do.
Hey, the law says you're not even free to be drunk in the street !

When it comes to ID cards in the UK, it doesn't matter whether we want it or not, the government will do what they please as usual.
Are they good or bad ? Well I have one and I don't feel less free than other people, the only people who see it are customs and the bank for a mortgage.
IF they don't charge people for having them and IF the system is as safe as possible then I don't see why not as long as they have some kind of benefit.
If they're useless then why waste money?

PS: People please let's not call others stupid or other names for having different opinions. People from both camp have good points, let's just exchange them politely. No need to get angry, it's only a forum.

Mep · 08-07-2005, 5:47 PM

nice post Jenn

Miyazaki · 08-07-2005, 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

People talk about freedom left right and centre but forget that society has nothing to do with freedom. In exchange for giving up a little bit of freedom we live in a kind of structured world where it is possible to have health care, education, car insurance, laws to protect us etc.

Who is free ? To be free you might well have to go on a deserted island, throw your clothes away and never come back, live off and try and survive nature!
Anything better than that and you won't be free anymore.

Nobody's free: you MUST have car insurance or your an outlaw (hey I want to do whatever I like with my money), you MUST have a driving license to drive (it's part of freedom to go wherever I like any way I like ?), you MUST pay tax if you earn money (is that being free ?), you MUST have a passport to go abroad, you MUST obey any old law saying what you can or can't do.
Hey, the law says you're not even free to be drunk in the street !

When it comes to ID cards in the UK, it doesn't matter whether we want it or not, the government will do what they please as usual.
Are they good or bad ? Well I have one and I don't feel less free than other people, the only people who see it are customs and the bank for a mortgage.
IF they don't charge people for having them and IF the system is as safe as possible then I don't see why not as long as they have some kind of benefit.
If they're useless then why waste money?

Freedom includes the ability to speak your mind without fear of someone taking you away and 'vanishing' you for your viewpoint. Freedom means being able to go about your daily business without being haranged. Freedom is an ideal that we as a society aspire to.

Freedom isn't a material object to be meeted out like a credit card, it isn't a currency to be barted with.

Freedom is the very essence, nay the very soul of man, and anyone who tries to chip away at it, even chip away a speck of dust, is worse that the terrorists that killed so many yesterday.

Jenn · 08-07-2005, 6:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Games Guru

Freedom includes the ability to speak your mind without fear of someone taking you away and 'vanishing' you for your viewpoint. Freedom means being able to go about your daily business without being haranged. Freedom is an ideal that we as a society aspire to.

Indeed. But if the police comes to your door today suspecting you of anything, you will have to prove who you are (passport, driving licence, birth certificate) and they might be allowed to search your home. Whether you have an ID card or not.

That was my point. We are not free today, the government/police can almost order us to do whatever they like. The ID card wouldn't make a blind difference to that in my opinion.

Society aspires to freedom. It is true although in contradiction. Most people want to make society better but to make it better we have to have rules and stop some people from going against these rules, and that's not freedom anymore.
For you to be free to say what you like, one may have to stop someone else wanting to attack you because of your opinion. You might be free, the other won't be.

Nick_UK · 08-07-2005, 6:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

Indeed. But if the police comes to your door today suspecting you of anything, you will have to prove who you are (passport, driving licence, birth certificate) and they might be allowed to search your home. Whether you have an ID card or not.

Wow..... and there was me convinced that I was innocent until proven guilty !

If the police come to your door suspecting you of something, you are not obliged to do anything unless they arrest you. They are not allowed to search your home without a warrant, and this has to be issued by a judge after being shown probable cause.

When someone gives me a good reason for having an ID card, I will gladly accept a free one. However, even Mr Clarke admits that ID cards could not have prevented the bombs in London, so what other uses do they have, except to make the government considerably richer ?

michaelm · 08-07-2005, 6:25 PM

No. I was born a British Citizen by quirk of fate but consider myself an Irishman. There's no reason why I should have to carry a British Citizen's id card.

pjclark1 · 08-07-2005, 6:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenn

you MUST have car insurance or your an outlaw

not true, you can deposite a set amount of money, and never have to pay for insurance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Games Guru

Freedom includes the ability to speak your mind without fear of someone taking you away and 'vanishing' you for your viewpoint. Freedom means being able to go about your daily business without being haranged. Freedom is an ideal that we as a society aspire to.

Many people in the UK vanish every year, I certainly am not allowed to speak my mind. The BBFC tell me what I am allowed to watch (and that's less than any other country in the western world allows) I really wish I could stop those phone calls about winning a holiday, but I can't. I guess freedom in the UK has already gone.

Mep · 08-07-2005, 6:40 PM

and that's not insurance?....presumably that money can't be touched whilst it is on deposit?

Jenn · 08-07-2005, 6:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjclark1

not true, you can deposite a set amount of money, and never have to pay for insurance.

Right, except it's illegal to drive an uninsured vehicle on public roads.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/print...110251,00.html

Mep · 08-07-2005, 6:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjclark1

not true, you can deposite a set amount of money, and never have to pay for insurance.

Many people in the UK vanish every year, I certainly am not allowed to speak my mind. The BBFC tell me what I am allowed to watch (and that's less than any other country in the western world allows) I really wish I could stop those phone calls about winning a holiday, but I can't. I guess freedom in the UK has already gone.

bloody hell you are hard done by aren't you....

shodan · 08-07-2005, 7:15 PM

I really don't understand why people have a problem with it! Mostly all of us carry some form of ID and even if we don't, our details will be registered somewhere from store cards to passports. ISP's to DVLA! What difference does it make? How can it affect your human rights? How does it inconvenience you?

The only problem I have with it is that if it is compulsary then I don't see why I should have to pay for it. Replacement cards maybe, but not the first issued one. And would it be possible to get some sort of insurance policy out on it so if it was lost/stolen then you wouldn't have to finance getting a new one.

I think the only real reason for a person to be against it is because they wish to move through society and "the system" undetected. I for one would like to know why people would want to do that.

JohnG · 08-07-2005, 7:54 PM

I heard a policeman phone in to the radio this afternoon saying that it would be unworkable. If he was on duty and asked to see their ID and they say they didn't have it with them there would be no way in this country that he would be allowed to take them into the police station because of this, so he would ask their name and ask them to produce their documents within a certain number of days. They would almost certainly give a false name (if they were up to no good) and so it has achieved nothing.

bob1 · 08-07-2005, 8:08 PM

What will be next babies fitted with id chips at birth.

Moosh · 08-07-2005, 9:38 PM

I am against ID cards as I don't see what tangible benefit they will offer. The people who are for ID cards and say that we shouldn't bang on about civil liberties should ask themselves "to what extent do you trust the people in power? From council officials to the police and security services to the Westminster politicians?"

How many people have that much faith that they let the police hold a copy of their house keys and allow them (the police) in anytime they feel like?

The Freedom on Information Act was a very poor attemt at transparency by the government. The number of caveats attached to what information we can (can't) see about ourselves is frightening.

If there was one database that held all of our information, how secure would it be? What if someone were to hack into it and download all of your information? Identity theft?

With the track record the government has with rolling out large scale IT systems you can see this is going to be a disaster before it is even switched on.

Also, the nature of a criminal is to break the law. What's one more document to forge? They already forge passports, driving licenses, birth certificates etc.

Finally, why is the government banging on about democracy when they are moving us closer and closer to a Soviet style state? The ID card may be optional to begin with but how long before it becomes law to carry it with you at all times?

View Poll Results: Do you agree with ID cards?
No	57	56.44%
Yes	30	29.70%
Don't care	14	13.86%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

08-07-2005, 9:42 AM	#5
Dr Diversity Guest Posts: n/a	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4663155.stm If they would not have stopped yesterdays attack then what is the point?
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