Would the presence of an ID card system have made a difference? It didn't in Madrid or New York. Maybe this tragedy will help clarify the need or otherwise for an ID card system. I am still against it.

[themoid]

can't see how it would ?

you would have to present your ID card each time you entered into any kind of transaction (shopping, bus, train) which could be verified I guess, but it makes the presumption that such cards are all genuine

if the cards can be forged then what is the point, as they no longer identify who you are ?

unfortunately, I don' t see an easy answer to stop events such as yesterday, but I think ID cards are the current 'trendy' answer as they have technology on their side, in that they can store biological data and so must be valid...

[sbowler]

why not go one further than id cards and like your pet, have averyone inserted with a micro chip?

[themoid]

Originally Posted by sbowler

why not go one further than id cards and like your pet, have averyone inserted with a micro chip?

Originally Posted by sbowler

why not go one further than id cards and like your pet, have averyone inserted with a micro chip?

Amazingly this is already a consideration for children. The BBC have this article.

It is starting to mimic Shade's Children and earlier stories on a similar theme

[Mep]

i'm open minded .....i agree they are unlikely to work but also feel that if they add even only a little to improved security then why not carry them........if you are a law abiding citizen i don't see why you should be against carrying them. However, I don't feel it is right that we should pay for them.

Originally Posted by mep

i'm open minded .....i agree they are unlikely to work but also feel that if they add even only a little to improved security then why not carry them........if you are a law abiding citizen i don't see why you should be against carrying them. However, I don't feel it is right that we should pay for them.

OK, but could the same amount of money be spent on security measures instead? Mobile & discreet semptex sniffers for example.

[Miyazaki]

george bush led tony blair to the dark side a long time ago, i don't see a way back. They are both using these terrorist attacks as an excuse to erode our freedom.

[inzaman]

However, I don't feel it is right that we should pay for them.

If they are implemented we will have to pay for them, although even if they appear free directly, highly unlikely, there will be a stealth way.

I cannot see how they would have made any difference yesterday.

[Mep]

Originally Posted by Dr Diversity

OK, but could the same amount of money be spent on security measures instead? Mobile & discreet semptex sniffers for example.

posibly, why not do both........it's all well and good to say they can't change our life styles but that doesn't mean we can't implement sensible precautions

Originally Posted by mep

posibly, why not do both........it's all well and good to say they can't change our life styles but that doesn't mean we can't implement sensible precautions

I am all for 'sensible precautions' but I don't see that spending billions on a system that has been seen to fail at the point of delivery is going to help stop suicide bombers intent on causing death & destruction. If ID cards prevented them from entering a tube station then they will take their bombs to other busy places. Think of the crowds at the Grand Prix this weekend and at every Premier League football club throughout the season. No amount of ID cards can police that

[Mep]

true enough....remember i said i am open minded at this point...i haven't read enough about other countries experiences with them..........my main issue is with people who are automatically against them as they see as some sort of infringement of their liberties.

Originally Posted by mep

...my main issue is with people who are automatically against them as they see as some sort of infringement of their liberties.

If we allow the threat of terrorism to erode our liberties, then the terrorists have won.

I'm against ID cards on financial, moral and practicality grounds.

[Miyazaki]

Mep, you obviously don't believe in freedom then. Why don't you move to Saudi Arabia, Iran or China then?

Liberty is a synonym for freedom. Civil liberty literally means freedom of the people.

[Nick_UK]

All this talk of ID cards illustrates that very few people understand how these terrorist groups work. They learned all their techniques from the IRA. The IRA was never an army. In the IRA there was a basic political core who never got their hands dirty, and they would recruit "enthusiastic supporters" to do their dirty work. The people doing the dirty work operated through a long command chain, and never met the people at the top. These people were recruited for one job, and never used again.

The Islamic militants take this one stage further, because they have supporters who are willing to give their lives for the cause (i.e. suicide bombers). The people who carry these devices could well have been recruited from the local population, and if we had an ID card system, they would be carrying a valid one.

The ONLY way to stem terrorism is in increased public vigilence. How well do you know your neighhours ? Is there a terrorist cell operating in your street ? In London particularly, people tend to "keep themselves to themselves", and this sort of attitude makes it so easy for terrorists to operate without fear of detection.

[Mep]

games guru...you could not be more wrong....i think i'll leave this thread now though as i knew it would go this way.....see wheer being open minded gets you?......attacked by the closed minded.

[Nick_UK]

mep, why are you reacting like this ? There are two sides to every argument, and going off in a huff because someone doesn't share your point of view is not the best way to hold a discussion.

All these people are saying (and I agree) is that restricting the rights of the citizen will not help to stem terrorism. Many of the people who perpetrated these outrages could well have been UK citizens.

[Mep]

ok, i'm not going off in a huff Nick, just fed up of stating my view....which is that I am honestly open minded........i don't disagree with most here in that i do not think they would have made an iota of difference yesterday, i've worked in the city for over 20 years.............all i am saying is that if somehow they increase security just a tiny bit (and i'm not even saying they will...i remain to be convinced either way) then i would not be against carrying one......I would not feel my quality of life or freedom had been infringed upon............so whythe **** would i want to move to Saudi......because i don't read the Guardian??

This is about as close to a 'public debate' as I have seen on the subject of ID cards. No doubt that our posts are being logged and we will be labelled as subversives or otherwise when the ID cards are issued

Originally Posted by mep

...all i am saying is that if somehow they increase security just a tiny bit (and i'm not even saying they will...i remain to be convinced either way) then i would not be against carrying one......I would not feel my quality of life or freedom had been infringed upon............so whythe **** would i want to move to Saudi......because i don't read the Guardian??

But you need to understand that other people are fundamentally opposed to this viewpoint! You have a right to carry an ID card if you want to, but it's a somewhat different thing to suggest that it is compulsory for EVERYONE to have an ID card. There are also serious concerns about the security of the database behind such a scheme, and lots of questions about whether iris scans and fingerprints are of any use at all, unless we spend a fortune on kit that can check this data everywhere we go.

I would feel that my liberty had been trodden on, if I'm forced to carry papers. What next? Armbands for muslims, or any group that looks 'a bit terrorist'? Curfews? Police state?

[Miyazaki]

Originally Posted by mep

ok, i'm not going off in a huff Nick, just fed up of stating my view....which is that I am honestly open minded........i don't disagree with most here in that i do not think they would have made an iota of difference yesterday, i've worked in the city for over 20 years.............all i am saying is that if somehow they increase security just a tiny bit (and i'm not even saying they will...i remain to be convinced either way) then i would not be against carrying one......I would not feel my quality of life or freedom had been infringed upon............so whythe **** would i want to move to Saudi......because i don't read the Guardian??

There is nothing open-minded about suggesting we introduce id cards. That is a base reaction to fear, and one of the most close-minded ideas I have ever heard.

If you were open minded you would be interested in holding a debate, not attacking the British way of life.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by mep

i'm open minded .....i agree they are unlikely to work but also feel that if they add even only a little to improved security then why not carry them........if you are a law abiding citizen i don't see why you should be against carrying them. However, I don't feel it is right that we should pay for them.

It no use saying if you are a law biding citizen you have should not be bothered about carrying one.

What if you lose it or forget it take it out with you what happens then?
And if you are stopped and do not produce it what then.
Be told to produce it at a later date, or carted off?
If the former why bother with them in the first place, if the latter it is an infringement of my rights.

[JohnG]

I also don't think that ID cards would have stopped yesterday's events happening.

On Radio 4's Today programme, the Home Secretary said 'ID cards would not have prevented yesterdays events' - *** are they for then?

[Mep]

Originally Posted by rhoamish

But you need to understand that other people are fundamentally opposed to this viewpoint! You have a right to carry an ID card if you want to, but it's a somewhat different thing to suggest that it is compulsory for EVERYONE to have an ID card. There are also serious concerns about the security of the database behind such a scheme, and lots of questions about whether iris scans and fingerprints are of any use at all, unless we spend a fortune on kit that can check this data everywhere we go.

I would feel that my liberty had been trodden on, if I'm forced to carry papers. What next? Armbands for muslims, or any group that looks 'a bit terrorist'? Curfews? Police state?

for teh avoidance of doubt i was stating my view...not what others peoples should be.....if you had read my post you would have noted that i remain open minded......

[Mep]

Originally Posted by Games Guru

There is nothing open-minded about suggesting we introduce id cards. That is a base reaction to fear, and one of the most close-minded ideas I have ever heard.

If you were open minded you would be interested in holding a debate, not attacking the British way of life.

which bit of my post did you not understand....apart from all of it......far from attacking the british way of life i am a big defender of it........and by stating my open minedness (NOT suggesting we introduce them....where did that come from?) surely I am opening myself up to debate and persuasion either way based upon that debate. So stop rolling your eyes ....seems to me you are spoiling for a fight with an ID Card supporter....and I am not your man I'm afraid..............

[Mep]

Originally Posted by Garrett

It no use saying if you are a law biding citizen you have should not be bothered about carrying one.

What if you lose it or forget it take it out with you what happens then?
And if you are stopped and do not produce it what then.
Be told to produce it at a later date, or carted off? If the former why bother with them in the first place if the latter it is an infringement of my right.

the second part of that is a valid statement Garrett and a good point well made

Originally Posted by JohnG

I also don't think that ID cards would have stopped yesterday's events happening.

Originally Posted by roversd1

On Radio 4's Today programme, the Home Secretary said 'ID cards would not have prevented yesterdays events' - *** are they for then?

I rest my case! Full story here

[Ethics Gradient]

Originally Posted by mep

posibly, why not do both........it's all well and good to say they can't change our life styles but that doesn't mean we can't implement sensible precautions

what you should do, is start thinking out it in terms of your Employment terms and conditions - - because the laws and regulations of the land form something like a Citizen terms and conditions.

Think about how you feel if your company introduced tighter security policies, working practive etc.

It is incredibly naive when people say " If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear "

...... because they are don't consider the possiblity that in the future, those in power may have differing opinions about what is right or wrong from them ...... or there children.

Rules and laws that we allow to pass now must be considered so that they can not be abused and latter used against us or our prodgeny.
Never give away your freedoms freely and on awhim - you are giving away not only your own rights, but those of all those that come after you.

[Mep]

aah but I'm the boss! ;-).....seriously though.....i do accept your point that what may seem innocuous today could be used differently in the future........