Nicola Edgington

Whether she went to hospital voluntarily or not, it's isn't her decision to make if she's detained there or not.

Say they admitted her in, after a week she wanted to go home but they deemed it necessary she stayed, they're not going to say well you came here on your own free will, so you can leave whenever you want.

at the point she left she was not detained there though, she had not been sanctioned and tehrefore she was free to go when ever she wished.

Had she been there for a week voluntarily - or as an informal in patient - ie without being sectioned she could leave of her own free will.

Its a hospital - not a prison and without a section being applied the nurses have no legal requirment to stop her leaving.
 
But apparently she'd already done wrong at least twice and the third event in the OP although quite unclear can only raise serious questions.

I agree you can't punish someone before they've done wrong, however if someone is judged ill enough to pose a serious threat (and that can be assessed), they shouldn't be out, whether they have killed already or not.
It's tough but the alternative is pretty much the same as doing nothing as you'd be waiting for someone/several people to get killed before you try and do something about it.

This is a specific and rare case. Some of the comments prior to my first post seemed to be carte blanche.

I believe we don't need to change the laws. This case simply highlights errors and issues that need addressing and looking into to avoid further instances. Should she have been out, should she have been more supervised etc.
My comments about a law locking people up if they are a potential risk is looking at mental illness and people with the potential for violent acts in general, because any changes to who and how we lock people up as a reaction to this case will have further reaching effects.

My personal experience of the mental health system is one of not enough resources meaning that carers and clinitians have very limited time for each case and can't see everyone that does need help.
Better resources could well mean that cases like this one are made even rarer if those with adequate professional skills are made available to assess and monitor patients and new cases. The staff are generally great, they just have too many cases and not enough time in my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I thought we were talking about this particular case.

I don't know enough about the current laws but I'll assume that they already deal with how to handle someone who is a threat. General failure to stop the people from re-offending is human error (in assessment or action).
 
I'm trying to find more info on this case but I'm just seeing the same stuff.

The girl claims she didn't take her meds, and the hospital wouldn't admit her in, so she left. The hospital say they were preparing a bed but she walked off and they pursued her.

I'm curious to see how this pans out over the months.


at the point she left she was not detained there though, she had not been sanctioned and tehrefore she was free to go when ever she wished.

Had she been there for a week voluntarily - or as an informal in patient - ie without being sectioned she could leave of her own free will.

Its a hospital - not a prison and without a section being applied the nurses have no legal requirment to stop her leaving.

That's not necessarily true, as an informal patient you can be detained against your will for 72 hours if you are deemed a risk. Then assessed again and be sectioned.

I want to know why someone who has killed her own mother and is detained indefinitely, is back on the streets 5 years later and has killed again.

Why wasn't she taking her meds? They can force her to take them by injections at hospital or a CPN. If she's not taking her meds, then that's effectively refusing treatment and could warrant a section.

Why is turning up to the hospital asking them to section her? Isn't she monitored via her CMHT and constantly evaluated?

Have the local authority just let this person slip through the net?

The questions are justified because an investigation has been launched.
 
Last edited:
I bumped into this forum while trying to find out about the incident at Bexleyheath. A close friend of mine committed suicide while waiting for treatment from this NHS trust. So I don't have anything good to say about this NHS trust.

Shocking to find out that this lady killed her mother only 6 years ago when she was mentally disturbed.

Daughter admits killing her own mother | News

Criminal sentence - Nicola Edgington - court: Lewes

So you do not need a rocket scientist to know that this lady will kill somebody when she is very unwell. Sun newspaper reported she was pleading to be admitted into hospital and stated that she will kill somebody.

Section me now or I’ll go and do something | The Sun |News


She herself went into hospital. She was sent from A&E to the mental health unit. She must have been kept waiting at the mental health unit. She was under the care of this NHS trust and they should be know that this lady is going to kill somebody. Why was she not admitted straightaway. Do you expect somebody who is that disturbed to wait patient in corridors for hours in A&E and at the door of psychiatric wards patiently waiting. This lady must have been requesting to get herself admitted for several hours!!

If you had an accident with life threatening injuries, do you expect to wait for several hours and be send from one unit to the other without any observation for the treatment to start???

What will happen to you if you are asked to wait for several hours in spite of asking for help while suffering from chest pain due to a heart attack???

After my friend died, I have heard several stories of serious negligence from this NHS trust.

Oxleas slammed over deaths in Green Parks House and Ivy Willis House (From News Shopper)


If this happens with a private company, CEO will be kicked out.

Why somebody senior in this trust not being charged for manslaughter???

Are they not responsible for these deaths???

Why are they hiding behind enquiries and waiting for these deaths to be forgotten???

I will never forget my friend who killed herself while waiting for some help and her pleas for help being ignored by this NHS trust.
 
Don't worry. Everyone involved in the case will say "lessons have been learned" and other such crap statements and soon all will be forgiven and forgotten.
 
And the Oxleas NHS Trust will continue to claim they are the best in spite of several dying.
 
I have a relative close to me who suffers from mental illness and I shudder to think what state they might be in if left without proper care and someone ensuring they take their medication. We need to face the fact that there is no such thing as care in the community, this is a result of the government cuts. A lovely woman died needlessly, a family has been robbed of a wife; sister; mother; grandmother. The woman who killed her should never have been out of the secure hospital unit and serious questions have to be asked about the staff who are responsible for discharging her and what precautions were in place for her care after release. It smacks of the most dire negligence I have ever seen. There are of course 2 sides to every story but this is sad for both - the "killer" was very needy and had been released and left to her own devices when severely ill. The woman killed was simply amazing, by her own family and friends' descriptions - always cheerful, smiling, loving, kind and would do anything for anyone. Dearly loved and will be truly missed, as will be seen by the turnout at her funeral. Mental health services are diabolical and this is another tragic example of how they are failing both the people in their care and those of us lucky enough not to be in their care but to be living amongst those who are mentally ill and living with their conditions.
 
Please look at the Daily Mail report. According to the mental health unit, she was fit enough to be discharged from her hostel to a flat to live on her own. It is shocking to read that the hostel iteself has not much support. The office is open only from 9AM to 5PM Monday to Friday. So nobody to monitor her nor support her on weekends. So this poor woman must have been begging for some help over the weekend. The mental health unit completely ignored her and let her to wait for a bed with no supervision.

Stab-killing mental health patient was preparing to live on her own before 'random attack' on strangers | Mail Online

Yes diabolical.

Who should be charged for the murder for a total stranger? HOSPITAL, HOSPITAL, HOSPITAL.

Unless hospital authorities and those responsible for her care are charged for murder, similar incidents will continue.
 
Who should be charged for the murder for a total stranger? HOSPITAL, HOSPITAL, HOSPITAL.

Unless hospital authorities and those responsible for her care are charged for murder, similar incidents will continue.

A suggestion so deranged one would be forced to question the sanity of whoever told you it was sensible to post it.
 
I was talking to a member of the press last Weds and mentioned the 'stabbing in Bexleyheath, by the girl that murdered her Mum'.

He stated that there is so much more to this story, but they can't report on any of it in case she pleads not guilty when it goes to trial.

Strange world we live in, where you can murder a relative and be back living amoungst the community in 5 years. Passage from Daily Mail article back in 2005:-

'On the night of the killing on 4 November last year, she had been to a pub with her brother Tom but had been thrown out because of her bizarre behaviour, which included doing karate chops and punches.
Her brother noticed she had a notebook in which she had scribbled the names Bin Laden, George Bush and Reggie Kray.
Once inside her mother?s cottage in rural Forest Row, East Sussex, she attacked her with a knife. She stabbed Mrs Edgington nine times and left her body on the fold-up bed she slept in, with the bloodied knife lying on her chest.
Judge Anthony Scott-Gall told her: "Your attack was irrational as it was horrific."
Prosecutor Philip Katz, QC, said: "This defendant stabbed her own mother to death with a large kitchen knife.
"Marion Edgington was a regular churchgoer, a caring woman, a much-loved lady who had been in fear of her wayward daughter."
"This followed years of hostility and aggression. Leading up to the death, the defendant had voiced hostility quite freely to her mother and other people.
"The defendant may well have found out she had recently been cut out of her mother?s will."
Mr Katz described how Nicola had been living rough in London before deciding to return to the family home for the get together.
"She sought to blame her mother for all her woes," he said.
After the attack Nicola went on the run. Her sister Sara, 20, appeared on television begging her to give herself up to police.
Asked to describe her sister, she replied: "The only way to describe her is a chav."Read more: Daughter admits killing her own mother | Mail Online
 
Gleision mine manager arrested | UK news | The Guardian

I don't know all the details this mining accident, but the manager of the mine was arrested for questioning for possible charge of manslaughter.

Why is it so different when it comes to mental health care?? Why are mental health care authorities being protected from police??

So many vulnerable patients kill themselves because of irresponsible behaviour by some hospital authorities. There will be investigations and lessons learned!! But nothing changes!!

People are still being killed, and vulnerable mentally ill kill themselves. And nobody is being held responsible.

Am I mad becoming mad about this?
 
A suggestion so deranged one would be forced to question the sanity of whoever told you it was sensible to post it.

It is clear that you have no remote experience of the mental health services in this country, otherwise you would have read that quote and silently agreed, shaking your head at the shameful truth. The NHS in this area is completely underfunded and plans put forward by this coalition government mean that it will only get worse. One example being the Edale House unit (part of the Manchester Royal Infirmary) - a relatively new block built for psychiatric care which is due to be closed later this year and the services it offers moved to the North Manchester Hospital, several miles away. Mental health services have not improved for several decades and the sad fact is that unless something is done to address and publicise these issues the situation will get worse, with far more vulnerable people in effect ignored, receiving poor if any care.
 
Gleision mine manager arrested | UK news | The Guardian

I don't know all the details this mining accident, but the manager of the mine was arrested for questioning for possible charge of manslaughter.

Why is it so different when it comes to mental health care?? Why are mental health care authorities being protected from police??

So many vulnerable patients kill themselves because of irresponsible behaviour by some hospital authorities. There will be investigations and lessons learned!! But nothing changes!!

People are still being killed, and vulnerable mentally ill kill themselves. And nobody is being held responsible.

Am I mad becoming mad about this?

It is completely infuriating. Some people completely miss the point and talk about "knife crime" when in actual fact this is gross negligence by hospital staff. They should be held responsible for vicarious liability. Utter neglect by medical staff led to the stabbing of one woman and tragic death of another. Why isn't this in the headlines? It is unbelievable that something so horrendous catches our attention for a day or so and is then banished to a microscopic article on page 17 or later, talking about the fact that actually nobody waited with this seriously mentally ill woman, they just expected someone agitated and recognising she was in need of help, to sit and wait in a dingy A&E waiting room for hours on end while someone tried to find her a bed for the night. Disgusting. If my mother had been killed by Nicola Edgington I would go and find those medical staff and make them feel the pain I was feeling and ensure they saw the errors of their ways and the fact they should feel truly responsible and guilty for the loss of life that resulted from their actions (or lack of).
 
Gleision mine manager arrested | UK news | The Guardian

I don't know all the details this mining accident, but the manager of the mine was arrested for questioning for possible charge of manslaughter.

Why is it so different when it comes to mental health care?? Why are mental health care authorities being protected from police??

So many vulnerable patients kill themselves because of irresponsible behaviour by some hospital authorities. There will be investigations and lessons learned!! But nothing changes!!

People are still being killed, and vulnerable mentally ill kill themselves. And nobody is being held responsible.

Am I mad becoming mad about this?

It is completely infuriating. Some people completely miss the point and talk about "knife crime" when in actual fact this is gross negligence by hospital staff. They should be held responsible for vicarious liability. Utter neglect by medical staff led to the stabbing of one woman and tragic death of another.

Why isn't this still in the headlines?

It is unbelievable that something so horrendous catches our attention for a day or so and is then banished to a microscopic article on page 17 or later, talking about the fact that actually nobody waited with this seriously mentally ill woman, they just expected someone agitated and recognising she was in need of help, to sit and wait in a dingy A&E waiting room for hours on end while someone tried to find her a bed for the night. Disgraceful.

If my mother had been killed by Nicola Edgington I would go and find those medical staff and make them feel the pain I was feeling and ensure they saw the errors of their ways and the fact they should feel truly responsible and guilty for the loss of life that resulted from their actions (or lack of).
 
i hear what everyone is saying and you all have valid points , but without the facts you should not judge her, I sympathise with the families of the murdered woman its so sad, But nobody could have known what was going to happen,
 
I was talking to a member of the press last Weds and mentioned the 'stabbing in Bexleyheath, by the girl that murdered her Mum'.

He stated that there is so much more to this story, but they can't report on any of it in case she pleads not guilty when it goes to trial.

Strange world we live in, where you can murder a relative and be back living amoungst the community in 5 years. Passage from Daily Mail article back in 2005:-

'On the night of the killing on 4 November last year, she had been to a pub with her brother Tom but had been thrown out because of her bizarre behaviour, which included doing karate chops and punches.
Her brother noticed she had a notebook in which she had scribbled the names Bin Laden, George Bush and Reggie Kray.
Once inside her mother?s cottage in rural Forest Row, East Sussex, she attacked her with a knife. She stabbed Mrs Edgington nine times and left her body on the fold-up bed she slept in, with the bloodied knife lying on her chest.
Judge Anthony Scott-Gall told her: "Your attack was irrational as it was horrific."
Prosecutor Philip Katz, QC, said: "This defendant stabbed her own mother to death with a large kitchen knife.
"Marion Edgington was a regular churchgoer, a caring woman, a much-loved lady who had been in fear of her wayward daughter."
"This followed years of hostility and aggression. Leading up to the death, the defendant had voiced hostility quite freely to her mother and other people.
"The defendant may well have found out she had recently been cut out of her mother?s will."
Mr Katz described how Nicola had been living rough in London before deciding to return to the family home for the get together.
"She sought to blame her mother for all her woes," he said.
After the attack Nicola went on the run. Her sister Sara, 20, appeared on television begging her to give herself up to police.
Asked to describe her sister, she replied: "The only way to describe her is a chav."Read more: Daughter admits killing her own mother | Mail Online
what is the point, that you are trying to make??
 
there was only ONE persone responsible for these murders -

the one holding the knife,
the one who said " admit me or ill kill some one" .....(sounds like a threat rather then a cry for help)
the one who after stabbing someone calmly walked up to somebody else and said "i think ive just killed someone"

There has to be Waaaay more to this story than is being reported at the moment as none of it adds up in the slightest.

and to go screaming for managers and nurses to be charged with manslaughter is ridiculous without knowing the full facts.
 
From the trust website

Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust

Total income of the trust is ÂŁ159 Million. So a lot of money is paid to this trust to look after the vulnerable patients!!!

According to annual review

http://www.oxleas.nhs.uk/site-media/cms-downloads/Oxleas_Review_for_website.pdf

"The Monitor (the independent regulator of NHS foundation trusts) risk ratings gives us a rating of 4.1 (5 is the highest) so financially we are a stable, viable organisation. The Balance Sheet shows that our Income and Expenditure Reserve increased to ÂŁ10m and our cash reserves to ÂŁ56.8m"

So it is all about saving money and making the organisation stable and viable.

Poor patients remain unstable and non viable!!!

See the number of directors and board members.

Board members

Chief Executive
Chairman
Deputy Chief Executive and Director of Service Delivery
Medical Director
Director of Nursing and Governance
Director of Human Resources and Organisational Development
Director of Finance
Deputy Chair
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director

The list goes on!!

Executive Directors
Director Adult Complex Needs and Recovery Mental Health Services
Director Adult Acute Mental Health Services
Director Forensic and Prison Services
Director Director of Estates and Facilities
Director Older People Mental Health Services
Director Bexley Community Health Services
Director Greenwich Community Health Services
Director Child & Adolescent Mental Health and Learning Disability Services

Chief Executive and Deputy Chief Executive!!!
Chairman and Deputy Chairman
And all these directors!!!

No mention at all the amount they get paid. It should be a few millions.

Look at this news story

BBC News - London councils share chief executive to save money

London councils share chief executive to save money

The opposite happens with this trust, they save money by not propery looking after their vulnerable patients and fat cats at the top gets paid more for saving money!!
 
stayingsane said:
From the trust website

Oxleas NHS Foundation Trust

Total income of the trust is ÂŁ159 Million. So a lot of money is paid to this trust to look after the vulnerable patients!!!

According to annual review

http://www.oxleas.nhs.uk/site-media/cms-downloads/Oxleas_Review_for_website.pdf

"The Monitor (the independent regulator of NHS foundation trusts) risk ratings gives us a rating of 4.1 (5 is the highest) so financially we are a stable, viable organisation. The Balance Sheet shows that our Income and Expenditure Reserve increased to ÂŁ10m and our cash reserves to ÂŁ56.8m"

So it is all about saving money and making the organisation stable and viable.

Poor patients remain unstable and non viable!!!

See the number of directors and board members.

Board members

Chief Executive
Chairman
Deputy Chief Executive and Director of Service Delivery
Medical Director
Director of Nursing and Governance
Director of Human Resources and Organisational Development
Director of Finance
Deputy Chair
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director
Non Executive Director

The list goes on!!

Executive Directors
Director Adult Complex Needs and Recovery Mental Health Services
Director Adult Acute Mental Health Services
Director Forensic and Prison Services
Director Director of Estates and Facilities
Director Older People Mental Health Services
Director Bexley Community Health Services
Director Greenwich Community Health Services
Director Child & Adolescent Mental Health and Learning Disability Services

Chief Executive and Deputy Chief Executive!!!
Chairman and Deputy Chairman
And all these directors!!!

No mention at all the amount they get paid. It should be a few millions.

Look at this news story

BBC News - London councils share chief executive to save money

London councils share chief executive to save money

The opposite happens with this trust, they save money by not propery looking after their vulnerable patients and fat cats at the top gets paid more for saving money!!

As Oxleas covers Bexley, Bromley & Greenwich are they not already cutting costs by having one set of directors instead of three.

If not maybe those of that live in the boroughs covered by the trust are being misled
 
Yes, the trust website reveal that they spend a lot of money on misleading the general public. Money which should be used to look after their patients.
 
Once again the people who made these mistakes seem to think it's OK if they apologise for deaths. No doubt the old cliché "lessons will be learned" will be making an appearance too.
 
Going to try and put a slightly different viewpoint on this and try and address some of the things that people have posted, some of what I say may or may not be relevant to different areas in the country.

I work in mental health, on a busy acute admissions ward for the NHS. Have done for the last 15 years or so in 2 different settings, the current one being 10 years.

I cant comment on the cases mentioned here as I dont have the facts/knowledge to do so but will try and clear some misconceptions on hospital care.

First off the comment on a patient being detained for 72 hours and not allowed to leave is not strictly true. If a patient has been admitted informally in my unit they are subject to a 72 hour assessment period where we ask they dont leave the ward, however this has no legal standing within the mental health act as it is a local policy and not law. We are not allowed by law/guidelines set out by Nice, Nimhe etc to lock our ward doors without good reason too. Although to be fair our doors are locked most of the time but as I say this should not be the norm as we are classed as a open ward and not secure, this will be the same for all admission wards up and down the country unless they are a low to medium secure unit.

Suicides on inpatient units have decreased over the last 8 years across the country, cant give figures for the community.

As little as 10 years ago when a sectioned patient was deeemed well enough to be discharged, often they would move onto a NHS rehab unit in the community, staffed 24/7 with a doctor on call etc. This would provide longer term treatment to try and encourage compliance with medication, learning new life skills etc. Due to cutbacks from the last govt alot of these units have now closed, my own trust now only has one which is based 60 miles away and is always full due to covering the whole trust.

Quite often now a patient is discharged into the community into private care or supported living where there is often no 24 hour cover and staffed by people on a low income with poor working conditions who are unable to give the time required to care for these people. I often wonder wether or not long term care of the chronically mentall ill should be a profit led service?

Another problem is that once people are discharged to the community often they are looked after by a community team called AOT(Asseretive Outreach Team), this team tries to engage with the long term chronic mentally ill clients who have a history of non-compliance with medication. Problem for this team is staffing, the last govt and the current govt have squezzed budgets so that team is manned by 5 or 6 people covering over 50 clients. It used to be a 24/7 service but is now only mon-fri office hours, some trusts are closing this service.

There was a post earlier in the thread about giving mecication in the community by CPN, this cannot be done against patients will, If they are on a community treatment order they can be forcibly brought back to hospital for treatment.

Also earlier in the thread wasa post about untreatable personality disorder, this a difficult one as there is some evidence to suggest that therapy can help but again this is mainly provided by the private sector and is costly, clients have to be assessed by a panel for funding and with money being tight this is often turned down.


As was pointed out earlier you have more chance being run over than being murdered by a person suffering mental health problems. Do we round up drunks on a saturday night and jail them as they or may not commit a crime/murder whilst drunk?

All in all I think that NHS inpatient services have improved compared to the dark days of the 70's and 80's but I do realise that community services need more work, although they too are improved compared to 20 years ago, problem is with budgets being cut the way they are than these services will not improve.

I do also accept though that if mistakes are made(of neglet) then people should have to answer to this.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom