[unique]

Originally Posted by overkill

Sounds like a plan. However, it does sort of leave it open to them to sack you for 'Gross misconduct' (instant dismissal without notice) and that kind of thing does tend to stick around for a while on your record.

So yes, you've guessed it, I wouldn't recommend sticking one on your boss - however tempting it is. Over the years there have been more than a few who I could have happily arranged for them to need a dental visit.

And yes, a future employer can ask to see your disciplinary record from previous employers. A dismissal is part of the Disciplinary process...

The OP took the C) option (see above post) and if that was the right thing for her, well, who are we to criticize?

a future employer can ask to see the disciplinary record, but the employer being asked can't give them a copy of it or a copy of any of the employees other records as they are covered by the data protections act. the employer can list information regarding this, and as long as it's true there can be no comebacks, but in practice most employers won't give details like that. they may mention the employees job was terminated due to dismissal however

what you have to be careful about is the references being passed to someone at the company who isn't so clued up about good practice and who may have an issue with you, and rightly or wrongly tell the employer seeking references information that may prevent you getting the job. if the information is true, there isn't much you can go, but even if it's not true, it's usually near impossible to find out most of the time, as most employers won't tell you why your application has been declined

[neilios]

Originally Posted by overkill

Sounds like a plan. However, it does sort of leave it open to them to sack you for 'Gross misconduct' (instant dismissal without notice) and that kind of thing does tend to stick around for a while on your record.

So yes, you've guessed it, I wouldn't recommend sticking one on your boss - however tempting it is. Over the years there have been more than a few who I could have happily arranged for them to need a dental visit.

And yes, a future employer can ask to see your disciplinary record from previous employers. A dismissal is part of the Disciplinary process...

The OP took the C) option (see above post) and if that was the right thing for her, well, who are we to criticize?

The building trade doesn't have all this nonsense, interviews are usually a quick chat and a handshake and then a months trial ,if you can do the job ,you get a start.

And abrupt speech ,bullying and threats are an everyday occurence on sites and building projects as are crude jokes,racism and sexism.So the culture is a completly different world to what most have to put up with.
Anyway i have 2 businesses so no need to worry about it anymore.

What im saying is anyone who doesn't feel comfortable at work should leave.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by unique

a future employer can ask to see the disciplinary record, but the employer being asked can't give them a copy of it or a copy of any of the employees other records as they are covered by the data protections act. the employer can list information regarding this, and as long as it's true there can be no comebacks, but in practice most employers won't give details like that. they may mention the employees job was terminated due to dismissal however

what you have to be careful about is the references being passed to someone at the company who isn't so clued up about good practice and who may have an issue with you, and rightly or wrongly tell the employer seeking references information that may prevent you getting the job. if the information is true, there isn't much you can go, but even if it's not true, it's usually near impossible to find out most of the time, as most employers won't tell you why your application has been declined

Yes the data protection act covers the written information, but there is nothing in law saying that information cannot be passed on, and there is an obligation on past employers to do so. Many employers in fact do give that information as protocol demands you do not give a 'bad reference' and the new employer has a right to know if an employee has a poor record. Only protocol covers 'bad references' mind. There is nothing in law that says you cannot give a bad reference. You can however, challenge one if you think it is false or vindictive at civil court for 'restraint of trade'.

Please be aware that employers can and do pass on that information, it is a duty, and thinking they won't, can, and does lead to dismissal on the grounds of a poor reference. It's more common than you think.

On the latter point under Data protection you have the legal right to ask the prospective/new employer for the details in the references that led to the employment offer being withdrawn or employment being ended. You can contact the Data Protection Registrar if that happens.

[overkill]

Originally Posted by neilios

The building trade doesn't have all this nonsense, interviews are usually a quick chat and a handshake and then a months trial ,if you can do the job ,you get a start.

And abrupt speech ,bullying and threats are an everyday occurence on sites and building projects as are crude jokes,racism and sexism.So the culture is a completly different world to what most have to put up with.
Anyway i have 2 businesses so no need to worry about it anymore.

What im saying is anyone who doesn't feel comfortable at work should leave.

As is their right.

Having worked in the building trade myself, it is indeed like working in the 'dark ages'. A contract of employment isn't worth the paper it's printed on, D&G is a joke, and dodgy payments far too often the norm.

However, you would still be suprised at how many are becoming more 'civilsed'.

[unique]

Originally Posted by overkill

Yes the data protection act covers the written information, but there is nothing in law saying that information cannot be passed on, and there is an obligation on past employers to do so. Many employers in fact do give that information as protocol demands you do not give a 'bad reference' and the new employer has a right to know if an employee has a poor record. Only protocol covers 'bad references' mind. There is nothing in law that says you cannot give a bad reference. You can however, challenge one if you think it is false or vindictive at civil court for 'restraint of trade'.

Please be aware that employers can and do pass on that information, it is a duty, and thinking they won't, can, and does lead to dismissal on the grounds of a poor reference. It's more common than you think.

On the latter point under Data protection you have the legal right to ask the prospective/new employer for the details in the references that led to the employment offer being withdrawn or employment being ended. You can contact the Data Protection Registrar if that happens.

in practice most good employers won't pass on "bad" information in order to avoid any comebacks, most will just supply basic information such as periods of employment and position held. there is no obligation legally or morally to provide anything else, the only requirement is it's a true statement

the problem is you can't tell what your last employer is going to put in a reference, so you should avoid wherever possible from doing something that a future employer may dislike, ie. not following procedures, not giving and working notice. if you just walk out on a job there may be a 50/50 chance that the employer is unhappy about it, and they may wish to let the next employer know about it. if you walk out because of a dispute with a manager you don't get on with, moreso if they are a bad manager, the chances of this probably increase, particularly if references are completed by an employees manager, rather than HR. many employers will address references directly to the HR department, rather than the manager or the contact name on the references, so they don't get a reference completed by the employees best friend at work, so this avoid that scenario, but you can't always tell. some employers may also follow a written reference with a phone call, or look for a quick verbal reference instead, knowing they may find information that the employer wouldn't put in writing. not everyone follows the rules and guidelines

[overkill]

Originally Posted by unique

in practice most good employers won't pass on "bad" information in order to avoid any comebacks, most will just supply basic information such as periods of employment and position held. there is no obligation legally or morally to provide anything else, the only requirement is it's a true statement

the problem is you can't tell what your last employer is going to put in a reference, so you should avoid wherever possible from doing something that a future employer may dislike, ie. not following procedures, not giving and working notice. if you just walk out on a job there may be a 50/50 chance that the employer is unhappy about it, and they may wish to let the next employer know about it. if you walk out because of a dispute with a manager you don't get on with, moreso if they are a bad manager, the chances of this probably increase, particularly if references are completed by an employees manager, rather than HR. many employers will address references directly to the HR department, rather than the manager or the contact name on the references, so they don't get a reference completed by the employees best friend at work, so this avoid that scenario, but you can't always tell. some employers may also follow a written reference with a phone call, or look for a quick verbal reference instead, knowing they may find information that the employer wouldn't put in writing. not everyone follows the rules and guidelines

Point one, exactly. People are under the impression there is a legal obligation to give a 'good reference' there isn't. Good practice, and 'protocol' says you shouldn't give a bad reference and either give a 'stock' ie just 'bare bones' or a full reference. As I say though, there is an onus on employers to provide information with regards disciplinary outcomes. This has moved to a more stringent 'onus' due to the issues over violence and of course where the new job involves 'at risk' clients/children.

The second point again, agree entirely, which is why, as I said, I would always advise trying to resolve a situation. If you leave a job without giving at least statutory notice, you are in breach of contract, and the employer, if they are minded to, could pursue it through civil court. It's unlikely they will, in particular in the current economic climate, but, if you do a job which carries either significant monetary or skill value to the employer - they will.

On the other side of the coin, if you do just leave without giving notice, and again if the employer is minded to, they could go through the process of a Disciplinary for 'unauthorised absence'. If you annoy them enough they can and have done this.

This is why bunging in a Grievance is critical. There is nothing stoppping you leaving and then putting a Grievance in outlining why you did leave. This is even more important with Constructive dismissal.

HR dept's are either a major boon or a major PIB. A good one will stop employers and employees making a bad situation into a disaster, whereas, as you say, a bad one will give out duff info right up until and after an employee leaves.

As I said though, if they do give duff info on a Reference you ask the new employer to see the reference and then go back to the old employer to challenge it. Again though, speak to the DPR first for full guidance.

[dudeness]

Heard from my employers today, they said that they've had a meeting to decide my fate and decided to terminate my employment. They also stated they've spoken to other members of staff who gave them nothing. I know this is not true, the two girls in my dept have not been given the chance to have their say and are just as mad as me. He stated (HR Manager) that the women in question has 'been there a long time, and is good at her job'

I've been on the phone to ACAS who advise me I have to appeal their decision and state why I think I need to appeal (which was the fact they never followed the correct procedure) and to give them a chance to respond.

I can have an employment tribunal (even if less than a year) due to the fact that they've breached my contract with them in not following the correct procedure. What a nightmare this is, it's made the fire in my belly go though I will not let them treat me or anyone like this just cos the office bully is good at her job! it's outrageous and they've picked on the wrong girl in this instance. Am seriously stressed and becoming absent minded over this, I went into another car yesterday and didn't even realise I'd gone through a red light until the drive told me