[Chadford]

I heard on a radio program someone describing people buying Organic produce as paying an 'insecurity and affluence tax', I tend to agree. What do you think?

[jassco]

is it really a tax, or does the extra money go to the supermarkets / producers? either way my opinion is that the quality is slightly better than 'normal' produce, much the same way as you can buy different quality meat

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by jassco

my opinion is that the quality is slightly better than 'normal' produce

I think this is doctrine we are constantly bombarded with, personally I don't believe it. For me for example veg freshness is king and not whether it's organic or not.

[Stoatman]

Sorry , I dont quite get what they mean as I did not hear it . But are they saying people are making themselves feel better buying organic produce and more "wealthy" people tend to buy them.

Personally organic or not local produce is always king for me.

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Stoatman

Sorry , I dont quite get what they mean as I did not hear it . But are they saying people are making themselves feel better buying organic produce and more "wealthy" people tend to buy them.

I think the meaning was something like...

*Some* people buy it because they think there's something inferior with conventional produce and their children are going to get slowly poisoned etc.

*Some* people buy simply as a status symbol, because they can afford it.

[OldAndSenile]

I think that organic and "local" produce both suffer from the same problem - it can never be the solution to the problem of providing everyone food, no matter how much people try and ram the principles of it down your throat...

How could the whole population of London only eat "local" food, for example, or how could we feed the whole country using only organic methods? It's just not possible.

Until someone comes up with a practical way of doing both, organic and "local" food is always going to be overpriced and under-available...

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by OldAndSenile

I think that organic and "local" produce both suffer from the same problem - it can never be the solution to the problem of providing everyone food, no matter how much people try and ram the principles of it down your throat..

Exactly!!! Lets fix issues with intensive farming and get that right, rather than create a separate tier of farming that will never ever feed everyone.

[Stoatman]

True , you can never get all you need "locally", but find the right farms/shops and the produce - usually seasonal - is much cheaper than so called "taste the difference" and "organic" food, I find. Especially things like eggs , potatoes , carrots , winter veg , in season fruit. It is inconvinient though having to do 2 shops as we both work so it would be wrong of me to say this is what we do every week.

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Stoatman

True , you can never get all you need "locally", but find the right farms/shops and the produce - usually seasonal - is much cheaper than so called "taste the difference" and "organic" food, I find. Especially things like eggs , potatoes , carrots , winter veg , in season fruit. It is inconvinient though having to do 2 shops as we both work so it would be wrong of me to say this is what we do every week.

Agreed, I think if you have the time, that's a very sensible and rewarding way to shop.

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by Chadford

Lets fix issues with intensive farming and get that right, rather than create a separate tier of farming that will never ever feed everyone.

There isn't the will to "fix the issues" as we live in an era where people demand meat and they demand it to be as cheap as possible and don't give a damn about the quality of life of the animal that they are eating.

Your previous post lists two reasons why people buy organic meat but leaves off what is probably the most important one that people buy organic meat as they are concerned about the welfare of the animal.

I only buy free range chicken and when it's made into a curry I certainly can't tell the difference in the taste and am happy to admit that

[Miyazaki]

I think organics suffer from a bit of an image problem.

Organic food, we are told, tastes better, which is blatently false. Saying it tastes better is just marketing nonsense.

There is no doubt that the organic standards the soil association sets are beneficial to the environment and general biodiversity. Insecticides and pesticides have horrendous effects on living creatures and ecosystems, you only have to read 'Silent Spring' by Rachel Carson to see that beautifully illustrated.

I used to work at a major organic producer and I know from first-hand experience that the mark-up on a lot of the produce was nothing less than profiteering. They know that most people that buy organic are rich and don't care so much about the price of things.

There is no reason organic food should be as expensive as it is.

So, I believe organic food is very overpriced, but not pointless in the slightest.

If we want to continue to see animals like bees and butterflies, as well as a whole host of other organisms that are vital to larger foodwebs then organic food is essential.

The way we mass produce our produce is entirely unsustainable.

[jassco]

Originally Posted by Chadford

I think this is doctrine we are constantly bombarded with, personally I don't believe it. For me for example veg freshness is king and not whether it's organic or not.

sorry i should have been a little bit clearer. for whatever reason when I go to a supermarket, if i pick up some 'normal' apples, they'll usually be a bit bruised, same with much other fruit and veg. However I've never seemed to have that problem with organic. This might be because more care is taken with the organic food by the supermarket, and thus it might not necessarily be a result of it actually being organic.... if that makes sense!

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Ian J

There isn't the will to "fix the issues" as we live in an era where people demand meat and they demand it to be as cheap as possible and don't give a damn about the quality of life of the animal that they are eating.

How true.

Originally Posted by Ian J

Your previous post lists two reasons why people buy organic meat but leaves off what is probably the most important one that people buy organic meat as they are concerned about the welfare of the animal.

I think that's a very good point, again I think we should fix issues with conventional food production. The RSPCA Freedom Food standard I think should be the *minimum* standard for conventional production in the UK and as importantly the *minimum* standard for availability of choice in UK shops regardless of country of origin.

Originally Posted by Ian J

I only buy free range chicken and when it's made into a curry I certainly can't tell the difference in the taste and am happy to admit that

I've bought cheap, free range, and Organic chickens in the past for roast chicken dinner before - hand on heart in terms of taste, well - inconclusive.
Remember the Rick Stein program when they blind taste tested for taste a Woodland reared Turkey vs a cheap intensively reared bird - and he preferred the cheap bird. Good on him for being honest and broadcasting it.

[SimonH]

Originally Posted by jassco

is it really a tax, or does the extra money go to the supermarkets / producers? either way my opinion is that the quality is slightly better than 'normal' produce, much the same way as you can buy different quality meat

I think the "extra " money is a costing factor , it simply costs more to raise organically fed meats, to allow chickens to roam etc etc. I am presuming it's the product developement costs which increase the price, I would presume the margin is approximatley the same from the supermarket .

We buy organic beef as I just find it tastes better, and sometimes the little one shares some of mine and I feel guilty feeding her something that might not be free of crap.

Can't say we are anal about it, we grow our own strawberries, tomatoes and other bits and pieces, we have little hesitation in buying frozen vegetables when it suits for convenience etc, and I'm quite happy to buy non organic half the time.

Dunno if it's pointless, I'm erring on the side of caution, doesn't really seem to cost to much more.

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Miyazaki

If we want to continue to see animals like bees and butterflies, as well as a whole host of other organisms that are vital to larger foodwebs then organic food is essential.

This aspect of conventional food production worries me greatly, we may have very very little time to fix these sort of issues before its too late.

I'm not convinced that the Organic model is the solution.
There are some exciting conventional solutions coming to fruition for the UK. For example large scale hydroponic production (a model used successfully in Holland for years for salad veg). This allows large scale partially automated production of the produce. They can use insect predators rather than chemicals and because it's all under glass - whohoo the predators prove very effective and don't blow away in the wind.

Seawater greenhouses. If you 15mins have a listen to Material World...
BBC - Radio 4 - The Material World
Very exciting.

[Stoatman]

Apologies, I was just concentrating on fruit and veg and forgot about meat, doh. Personally I try my best to avoid any meat which has been intensively farmed in dire conditions. Too many re-watches of river cottage and programs delving into what they stuff into so called "meat". I mostly get meat from the butcher as it is far better quality and very reasonably priced on the whole - except if you start going into rare bread beef etc -. I get annoyed when you have to pay a premium in the supermarket for "taste the difference" or superior products, it just seems they are saying that all the other stuff is cack !. Especially sausages and bacon , some of the stuff should just be banned .

[OldAndSenile]

Originally Posted by Stoatman

Especially sausages and bacon , some of the stuff should just be banned .

My wife and I were discussing this last night, and I don't see why people are so horrified that mechanically recovered meat and more obscure cuts of meat are used in sausages... So what!?

A few years ago, a boiled pig's head was a treat for a family, and pig trotters and ears were seen as a healthy, hearty thing to eat.

We won't eat them now, so what else are meat companies supposed to do with them? They're no less (or more) healthy than other parts of the animal, so surely it's just waste to throw them away?

If an animal is treated well, I see no issue in eating it's toenails, eyebrows, nipples or whatever - you can't be squeamish for some parts of a dead animal and not others - especially as eating it's backside is seen as the best (and most expensive) bit!

[Stoatman]

Each to their own I guess. Personnaly I find jet washing a carcass , shovelling the meat into a skip and adding all manner of "stuff" then making sausages out of it where the actual content of meat slurry is about 38 % a bit off putting . Same with bacon , when white gunk leaches out of it when its grilling/frying due to added water and dextrose its a turn off. Making a pack of 8 sausages for around 48 p (tescos) cant be right can it ?.

I'm with you on offally bits being eaten , shin of beef , belly pork , lamb shanks , black pudding too. But nipples , toe nails and eyelids i think i'll pass.

[Toasty]

But even with meat there is a difference between organic and free range, unless I'm mistaken? I believe you can by free range chickens that aren't organic, as its down to other factors such as feed used. So, if you buy a free range organic chicken, it's more expensive again than a free range chicken. I think the same applies with eggs, you can buy free range eggs and free range organic eggs.

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Stoatman

Each to their own I guess. Personnaly I find jet washing a carcass , shovelling the meat into a skip and adding all manner of "stuff" then making sausages out of it where the actual content of meat lurry is about 38 % a bit off putting . Same with bacon , when white gunk leaches out of it when its grilling/frying due to added water and dextrose its a turn off. Making a pack of 8 sausages for around 48 p (tescos) cant be right can it ?

Hmm, I take your point about stuffing fluid into meat. I know someone who does this for a living. Apparently they use what looks like big washing machines to increase the weight of the meat. He told me that for the little chunks of meat that goes on some Pizzas they can increase the weight by about 50%.

However, I think I agree with OldAndSenile in his objectivity. I think many of people now perceive good food to have taken a certain route, locally sourced, Organically grown, fed on the finest fodder, rolled on the thighs of Cuban virgins etc. etc. and bad food has had something to do with a machine, a factory and perhaps has a well known corporate label stuck on the packaging. I think the former way of thinking has more to do with appearance than it has to do with good nutritious food.

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Toasty

But even with meat there is a difference between organic and free range, unless I'm mistaken? I believe you can by free range chickens that aren't organic, as its down to other factors such as feed used. So, if you buy a free range organic chicken, it's more expensive again than a free range chicken. I think the same applies with eggs, you can buy free range eggs and free range organic eggs.

Yes, there are differences between free range and Organic. I believe the conditions the animals are kept in are the same. However I think Organic chickens a reared for a few weeks longer and they are fed on Organic seed. Much of this seed, due to shortfalls of Organic seed, is trucked half way round the world from countries such a Kazakhstan .

[Decadence]

If you are buying your fruit and veg from a supermarket, organic or not, you are paying way too much for it...get down to your local greengrocer and save money!

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by Decadence

If you are buying your fruit and veg from a supermarket, organic or not, you are paying way too much for it...get down to your local greengrocer and save money!

[Steven]

I have not been able to taste the difference with fair trade

But organic, then yes and no as it depends on the product. The Sainsbury's organic bag of 6x gala apples are delicious, if a little small. For things like potatoes I do not bother as middle of the road above basement and below top of the line is perfectly fine

I will say though that Marks and Spencer's just ripe white flesh nectarines are amazing. Like a taste of heaven

[eric pisch]

on the whole there is a difference, most intensive farmed veg use a fast growing varieties that are more likely to produce the desired shape / colour if they have any flavour its just luck

most supermarket veg is flavourless to me especially carrots as are hydroponicly grown tomatoes, other veg is less flavour affected

i think for most organic users its the lack of chemicals / pesticides that is the attraction over extra taste

as the population continues to explode we will not have the luxury of having morale's over food production.

organic chickens defiantly taste better, ill blind test anyone on this

fairtrade i think just means they have ripped of the supplier a little bit less and has nothing to do with organic, i think

regardless i always go for the cheapest

[ldoodle]

Originally Posted by Chadford

For me for example veg freshness is king and not whether it's organic or not.

Exactly!

You can easily feel the difference between 'good' and 'bad' veg. I'm one of the ones who feels up fruit and veg and digs right down under the onions to get a good looking set.

And I am by no means a snob, but I don't buy smart price food not because it's cheaper but because the content is inferior (actual meat content for example, or added salt). Most buy 1 get 1 free are on junk food (chocolates, crisps etc). The only time i've seen fruit on this offer is satsumas, but buy the time you've eaten the first 30 the other 30 have gone mouldy.

99% of meat is from a local butchers and if we had a local green grocers all fruit and veg would be from there.

I eat at least 7 fruit and veg a day; have had 1 sick day off work in 11 years (norovirus). I don't even catch viruses if someone coughs or sneezes all over my face.

It all comes down to the same thing; we wonder why obesity levels are so high, yet are they surprised when unhealthy food is far cheaper than their healthy counterparts.

Try and get 10 bananas, 10 apples and 10 pears for £1

[Steven]

If you want good tasty fruit and veg that does not look like it has come off a conveyor belt then go to your local market. And you may well save a bit of money too

But M&S can keep their fruit as they are. Deliciously sweet. They are the only ones I know guaranteed to sell you grapes that are sweet

[eric pisch]

Originally Posted by LFC_SL

If you want good tasty fruit and veg that does not look like it has come off a conveyor belt then go to your local market. And you may well save a bit of money too

But M&S can keep their fruit as they are. Deliciously sweet. They are the only ones I know guaranteed to sell you grapes that are sweet

i avoid M&S i spend fortunes in there, its all so damn tasty ...

[Chadford]

Originally Posted by ldoodle

Try and get 10 bananas, 10 apples and 10 pears for £1

[darkmobius]

There doesn't seem to be a strict definition of "organic" anyway to be labelled that in supermarket. The scientific definition of "organic" means something completely different. As for "natural" or "organic" being better. I don't see why. Malaria is wholely natural, I wouldn't want it, never mind pay a premium to get it.